The sad decline of West Indian Test cricket: ‘We seem to have given up’

[AKane]

9 hours ago, nevada said:

Overseas player limit was reduced to 2. Previously it was 4 I think. 

BTW this has affected Pak batting too.... Zaheer Abbas(Gloucestershire), Miandad(Glamorgan), Majid Khan(Glamorgan) and Asif Iqbal(Kent) were all products of county environment..... Almost all of their team in 70s and 80s was playing county cricket.

 

They also benefited quite a bit from the Packer series where they all played and none and I mean none of the Indians played. Imran learnt a lot of stuff from Garth Le Roux out there.

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, AKane said:

BTW this has affected Pak batting too.... Zaheer Abbas(Gloucestershire), Miandad(Glamorgan), Majid Khan(Glamorgan) and Asif Iqbal(Kent) were all products of county environment..... Almost all of their team in 70s and 80s was playing county cricket.

 

They also benefited quite a bit from the Packer series where they all played and none and I mean none of the Indians played. Imran learnt a lot of stuff from Garth Le Roux out there.

Teams with poor domestic set up aare getting exposed. Either you have a good school system or first class system. Highest run getter for WI in domestic season is 39 year old mohammd by some distance. This is proper venting by  a hard-core Wstindian test fan. He wants chandrakant pandit as coach

 

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[tapandrun]

4 hours ago, AKane said:

BTW this has affected Pak batting too.... Zaheer Abbas(Gloucestershire), Miandad(Glamorgan), Majid Khan(Glamorgan) and Asif Iqbal(Kent) were all products of county environment..... Almost all of their team in 70s and 80s was playing county cricket.

 

They also benefited quite a bit from the Packer series where they all played and none and I mean none of the Indians played. Imran learnt a lot of stuff from Garth Le Roux out there.

Think there is uptake for pak player in county, Shan masood is captain of one of the county team, Imam was playing some Odi tournament there, Hasan Ali and Jamal had some contract too.

 

Babar, Azar Ali and couple of other batter played in eng domestic system recently.

 

Pak decline is test is purely because the board and players inclined towards t20s once the psl started. Mentioned this before just look at the reaction of the player and their pr/fanbase when they are dropped from t20is side and compare when they are dropped from Tests.

[vvvslaxman]

This is an interesting conversation

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUghfRO8kiw

 

[rollingstoned]

15 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Think there is uptake for pak player in county, Shan masood is captain of one of the county team, Imam was playing some Odi tournament there, Hasan Ali and Jamal had some contract too.

 

Babar, Azar Ali and couple of other batter played in eng domestic system recently.

 

Pak decline is test is purely because the board and players inclined towards t20s once the psl started. Mentioned this before just look at the reaction of the player and their pr/fanbase when they are dropped from t20is side and compare when they are dropped from Tests.

Not just a player or 2 who plays for a season or 2 for shits and giggles. Guys like Inzi, Saqlain, Akram played for counties for a long time iirc. Imran khan himself would have been a lesser player were it not for it. 

[tapandrun]

5 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

Not just a player or 2 who plays for a season or 2 for shits and giggles. Guys like Inzi, Saqlain, Akram played for counties for a long time iirc. Imran khan himself would have been a lesser player were it not for it. 

A bigger driving force was $$ from the county contracts and yes its a proven system to uplift the skills of the player. but now most of the $$ is in t20 leagues.

 

Plus there was off-season in cricket that player can go to county and play there, but now there is so much cricket no time off. Playing county cricket meant that these player will retain their places in Tests and Odis. but now to be part of Odis player has to be t20 player. 

Edited October 7, 2025 by tapandrun

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

A bigger driving force was $$ from the county contracts and yes its a proven system to uplift the skills of the player. but now most of the $$ is in t20 leagues.

 

Plus there is off-season in cricket that player can go to county and play there, but now there is so much cricket no time off. Playing county cricket meant that these player will retain their places in Tests and Odis. but now to be part of Odis player has to be t20 player. 

Professionalism is the biggest takeaway for upcoming youngsters in country cricket. Zaheer khan completely owes it to the system. He himself admitted he was largely undisiciplined bfore joining country cricket. Once he joined he was in a situation where he had to be independent more than ever. It offered him different perspective. Made him a better bowler.

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

Professionalism is the biggest takeaway for upcoming youngsters in country cricket. Zaheer khan completely owes it to the system. He himself admitted he was largely undisiciplined bfore joining country cricket. Once he joined he was in a situation where he had to be independent more than ever. It offered him different perspective. Made him a better bowler.

Have not seen or read this, but as said previously too County is a proven system to up-lift and up-skill a player not just cricketing skills but inter-personal skills too

 

The discipline is mostly regading their lifestyle, where they are equal to all other players in the team. Once thy go there they have to take care of everything by themsleves, cooking, laundry, shopping, finding appmt, paying rents etc. This is a huge development in the life of ind or sc players, who have not seen this kind of responsibility 

Edited October 7, 2025 by tapandrun

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Have not seen or read this, but as said previously too County is a proven system to up-lift and up-skill a player not just cricketing skills but inter-personal skills. 

 

The discipline is mostly regading their lifestyle, where they are equal to all other players in the team. Once thy go there they have to take care of everything by themsleves, cooking, laundry, shopping, finding appmt, paying rents etc. This is a huge development in the life of ind or sc players, who have not seen this kind of responsibility 

Most importact thing he highlighted was self-management is the key in development.  KUmble took 87 wickets in one of the county season. 

[sage]

On 10/6/2025 at 8:37 AM, nevada said:

Overseas player limit was reduced to 2. Previously it was 4 I think. 

Just checked and pre 82 there was no limit and then they added a limit to just 1. Huge difference and hurt windies and Saffer players

[AKane]

2 hours ago, sage said:

Just checked and pre 82 there was no limit and then they added a limit to just 1. Huge difference and hurt windies and Saffer players

I think they had some residency requirement which they removed in 60s - so you did not have to reside in the county to play for it. I think....not sure about this.

[putrevus]

Pujara played lot of country cricket, how did it help him. Giving country cricket credit for WI's becoming power house in 1980s is stupid.If county cricket was so great in 1980s why was England such a useless team in 1980s.

 

WI had talent coming thru in 1980s which has not been repeated again anywhere, batting was more or less same for decade plus with like of Viv , Gordon and Lloyd. It is the fast bowling talent which made them a power house.

[tapandrun]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Pujara played lot of country cricket, how did it help him. Giving country cricket credit for WI's becoming power house in 1980s is stupid.If county cricket was so great in 1980s why was England such a useless team in 1980s.

 

WI had talent coming thru in 1980s which has not been repeated again anywhere, batting was more or less same for decade plus with like of Viv , Gordon and Lloyd. It is the fast bowling talent which made them a power house.

Solely giving credit to county for a wi  super team of that time would be wrong but county is a proven system to up-skill and up-lift a player.

Saying Eng team was not that good, it would be similar saying if Ind was not winning t20 wcs IPL was not the top t20 league.

 

Cricket is amateur sports and only few big teams have a proper system and are able to produce player over and over again, others have to wait for some exceptional player coming on their own. and hope 4-5 top end player emerge.

 

Teams like Aus have been consistent in producing players and winning WCs because they have proper system.

 

There is no restriction applied on IPL right now on OS player then why there is dip in wi players and their roles and responsibility. Its just that others have become better and wi gen2 and gen3 are not that great as gen 1 was where there were 4-5 match winner on their own. Right now only pooran is at that level, rutherford, hetmayer are good but they are not as good as 2nd tier wi gen1 player. Now eng players are popular in t20 leagues even NZ player are seeing uptake in the demand

 

Cricket changed in 90s and cricket is changing now. in 90s 3 asn teams started playing alot amongst themselves, no-ball rule made wi style of bowling obsolete, reverse swing and dusra came in. These are major changes 

 

And now in t20s new shots are being added, other players have developed so many shots and access various areas of the ground.

wi came up with using leg-spin in t20 and mystery spin, now they  have no leg-spinner or mystery spin 

 

  

Edited October 8, 2025 by tapandrun

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Solely giving credit to county for a wi  super team of that time would be wrong but county is a proven system to up-skill and up-lift a player.

Saying Eng team was not that good, it would be similar saying if Ind was not winning t20 wcs IPL was not the top t20 league.

 

Cricket is amateur sports and only few big teams have a proper system and are able to produce player over and over again, others have to wait for some exceptional player coming on their own. and hope 4-5 top end player emerge.

 

Teams like Aus have been consistent in producing players and winning WCs because they have proper system.

 

There is no restriction applied on IPL right now on OS player they why there is dip in wi players and their roles and responsibility. Its just that others have become better and wi gen2 and gen3 are not that great as gen 1 was where there were 4-5 match winner on their own. Right now only pooran is at that level, rutherford, hetmayer are good but they are not as good as 2nd tier wi gen1 player. Now eng players are popular in t20 leagues even NZ player are seeing uptake in the demand

 

Cricket changed in 90s and cricket is changing now. in 90s 3 asn teams started playing alot amongst themselves, no-ball rule made wi style of bowling obsolete, reverse swing and dusra came in. These are major changes 

 

And now in t20s new shots are being added, other players have developed so many shots and access various areas of the ground.

 

 

  

 India still was a force in t20s reaching finals in 2014 and semis in 2016. WI did not win any world cup during 1980s but it sure was one of the best team even then in both formats.

 

Winning hardware is not the only indication of good team. India won 1983 world cup but it was not better team than WI in 1980s.

 

England team on other hand was not good, it lost home test series to India, Pakistan and were whitewashed both home and away by WI, lost Ashes in 1989 in 1980s. 

 

Don't think 1980s WI bowling style is obsolete at all, tall express fast bowlers would  still have premium value in any format even today. WI did not need reverse to succeed, their pace and bounce did that for them.Guys like Cummins and Hazelwood have succeeded in all formats.Guys like Garner and Holding would have easily succeeded in any era.

 

IPL or t20 leagues did not destroy WI cricket.It was already on decline. Walsh and Ambrose were last great fast bowlers from WI.They have stopped playing more than 20 years ago.WI was not able to compliment those two while they were playing also.

 

4 great fast bowlers playing at the same team made those WI teams greatest team.That stopped happening from  mid 1990s.Once that happened WI became beatable .But They had batting talents like Lara to keep them relevant  and once batting talent dried out team became irrelevant.

 

I don't think anyone knows why WI had so many fast bowlers emerge during  those 15-20 years. LIke you said you need a system which is well run to keep producing talent. I don't think their FC structure is even decent now.

 

Did counties help WI team, yes it did to some extent . Has IPL has helped other teams play well in India?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2025 by putrevus

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

 India still was a force in t20s reaching finals in 2014 and semis in 2016. WI did not win any world cup during 1980s but it sure was one of the best team even then in both formats.

 

Winning hardware is not the only indication of good team. India won 1983 world cup but it was not better team than WI in 1980s.

 

England team on other hand was not good, it lost home test series to India, Pakistan and were whitewashed both home and away by WI, lost Ashes in 1989 in 1980s. 

 

Don't think 1980s WI bowling style is obsolete at all, tall express fast bowlers would be still have premium value in any format even today. WI did not need reverse to succeed, their pace and bounce did that for them.Guys like Cummins and Hazelwood have succeeded in all formats.Guys like Garner and Holding would have easily succeeded in any era.

 

IPL or t20 leagues did not destroy WI cricket.It was already on decline. Walsh and Ambrose were last great fast bowlers from WI.They have stopped playing more than 20 years ago.WI was not able to compliment those two while they were playing also.

 

4 great fast bowlers playing at the same team made those WI teams greatest team.That stopped happening from  mid 1990s.Once that happened WI became beatable .But They had batting talents like Lara to keep them relevant  and once batting talent dried out team became irrelevant.

 

I don't think anyone knows why WI had so many fast bowlers emerge during  those 15-20 years. LIke you said you need a system which is well run to keep producing talent. I don't think they FC structure is even decent now.

 

Did counties help WI team, yes it did to some extent . Has IPL has helped other teams play well in India?

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with most of the points, tall fast bowler of that standard will always work, but the last of that kind wi bowler was Dillon.

 

And bowling short ball after short ball wont not work as they will be called no-ball and emergence of wasim, waqar kind of skiddy bowlers  changed a lot of things.

Wi pivoted in that direction they got many fast and skiddy bowlers :::: Best, edwards, tylor, roach, etc 

 

Aus did not need to change much because they didnt rely on bounce, they relied on consistent pace and accuracy and on Aus wkts teams may not need much of reverse, 

It was sc more useful for sc and sc like condition when ball gets older.

 

rightly said ppl are just co-relating everything with county which is wrong and saying t20 destroyed wi cricket is even more incorrect . It was already in the downfall.

player like lara always had issues with board, think he was missing games and series. IPL and other leagues game the wi players and boards some stability.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2025 by tapandrun

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

Agree with most of the points, tall fast bowler of that standard will always work, but the last of that kind wi bowler was Dillon.

 

And bowling short ball after short ball wont not work as they will be called no-ball and emergence of wasim, waqar kind of skiddy bowlers  changed a lot of things.

Wi pivoted in that direction they got many fast and skiddy bowlers :::: Best, edwards, tylor, roach, etc 

 

Aus did not need to change much because they didnt rely on bounce, they relied on consistent pace and accuracy and on Aus wkts teams may not need much of reverse, 

It was sc more useful for sc and sc like condition when ball gets older.

 

rightly said ppl are just co-relating everything with county which is wrong and saying t20 destroyed wi cricket is even more incorrect . It was already in the downfall.

player like lara always had issues with board, think he was missing games and series. IPL and other leagues game the wi players and boards some stability.

 

 

I don't think they pivoted to fast and Skiddy, they just did not have any tall and fast bowlers of that quality. BTW Marshall who is short, fast and skiddy is universally acknowledged by all of them as their best fast bowler.Holder is tall but he is not pacy.Roach, Edwards and Taylor were best available.Tino Best was not very good bowler.

 

1980s West Indies bowlers were not just  tall and pacy. They were extremely accurate, it was almost impossible to score runs against them.Where would batsmen score runs, there was no respite 4 bowlers of highest quality bowling at the same time

 

I don't think any Australian team even in their pomp could beat them in a series. Aussies never had bowling attacks like 1980s WI.They might win a test due to Warne but  in a series no team in history is beating the Clive Lloyd's team.

 

Those WI teams won everywhere and they took particular liking in beating Aussies and England.Kim Hughes resigned as captain, he could not take another beatdown in hands of WI.But to their credit Aussies and England kept playing them.

 

I would not put Dillion in same class as even Walsh whom he was compared to when he was playing.. He was lot slower and lot less accurate than Walsh.

 

Walsh would not be in playing ATG XI team of WI. Holding, Marshall, Garner and Ambrose would be starting over Walsh.Roberts, Walsh, Croft and Ian Bishop would be in second XI.Patrick Paterson (who was rated as fastest among all of them by Dujon )Clarke, Daniels did not play much but they would be front line bowlers of many teams.No team had these many fast bowlers in their history.WI had all of them in span of 15 years.

 

.

Edited October 8, 2025 by putrevus

[tapandrun]

47 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't think they pivoted to fast and Skiddy, they just did not have any tall and fast bowlers of that quality. BTW Marshall who is short, fast and skiddy is universally acknowledged by all of them as their best fast bowler.Holder is tall but he is not pacy.Roach, Edwards and Taylor were best available.Tino Best was not very good bowler.

 

1980s West Indies bowlers were not just  tall and pace. They were extremely accurate, it was almost impossible to score runs against them.Where would batsmen score runs, there was no respite 4 bowlers of highest quality bowling at the same time

 

I don't think any Australian team even in their pomp could beat them in a series. Aussies never had bowling attacks like 1980s WI.They might win a test due to Warne but  in a series no team in history is beating the Clive Lloyd's team.

 

Those WI teams won everywhere and they took particular liking in beating Aussies and England.Kim Hughes resigned as captain, he could not take another beatdown in hands of WI.But to their credit Aussies and England kept playing them.

 

I would not put Dillion in same class as even Walsh whom he was compared to when he was playing.. He was lot slower and lot less accurate than Walsh.

 

Walsh would not be in playing ATG XI team of WI. Holding, Marshall, Garner and Ambrose would be starting over Walsh.Roberts, Walsh, Croft and Ian Bishop would be in second XI.Patrick Paterson (who was rated as fastest among all of them by Dujon )Clarke, Daniels did not play much but they would be front line bowlers of many teams.No team had these many fast bowlers in their history.WI had all of them in span of 15 years.

 

.

Not trying to compare Dillion to bowler of wlash class, just the type tall, v.high release. He was last of that kind from WI.

And then having alot of fast and skiddy bowlers ,nt sure what happened but one would think they did take a strategic and tactical move

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

Not trying to compare Dillion to bowler of wlash class, just the type tall, v.high release. He was last of that kind from WI.

And then having alot of fast and skiddy bowlers ,nt sure what happened but one would think they did take a strategic and tactical move

I just don't think they had/have any tall bowlers in the system in last two decades. Even country like Australia is still holding onto the three bowlers for last decade.Fast bowlers are very hard to find,WI just happened to get them in bunches in that period.

 

Maybe youngsters are playing other sports.Who knows, what is happening.Their batting is just atroicous.Guy like Brathwaite has played 100 plus tests tell you everything which is wrong about their system. But he is looking like Bradman compared to bozos who are playing on this tour.

[Nikhil_cric]

16 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Not trying to compare Dillion to bowler of wlash class, just the type tall, v.high release. He was last of that kind from WI.

And then having alot of fast and skiddy bowlers ,nt sure what happened but one would think they did take a strategic and tactical move

They have Alzarri now who is taller, quicker and better than Dillon ever was 

[tapandrun]

37 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

They have Alzarri now who is taller, quicker and better than Dillon ever was 

Dillion hardly reached 135 kmph, mostly bowled 130-133 kmph most of the times.

 

Alzarri at one time looked like will be good but his career never took off, his pace has decreased .

 

Think he walked off the field recently from the ground , looks like he had/has some issues with team or tm