Washington lack of wickets a concern

[Lord]

1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

Sai and Padikal are not top draw batter of FC/test in Ind.

Its okay if they are developing sundar, but the reason Ind is playing with 3 spinner now is because tm and selectors does not think kuldeep is as good a batting option as Ashawin was and and they need a batter but none of the Ind batters are willing to bowl there is the spot/opportunity for Sundar  

Yes he’s playing as an AR like Ash but he’s a better bat than bowler. 

[vvvslaxman]

I think we are under-rating SUndar's bowling.  He has come a long way.

 

 

[crictime]

2 hours ago, Lord said:

Yes he’s playing as an AR like Ash but he’s a better bat than bowler. 

Ashwin could easily make any test team on his bowling skills alone. His batting was a bonus.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, crictime said:

Ashwin could easily make any test team on his bowling skills alone. His batting was a bonus.

 

early on in his career his batting saved his spot even if he had a bad series with the ball. Sundar is similar but should bat higher

[crictime]

25 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

early on in his career his batting saved his spot even if he had a bad series with the ball. Sundar is similar but should bat higher

Not sure which series and year you are talking about.

 

Ashwin was one of the few cricketers, who actually kept improving. Most fall at international level. Surely hard work and skills are key ingredient as well for success at this level. So kudos to him for having such a great test career. He is a recent role model for this new lot like Washington Sundar and Manav Suthar who are not specialist bowlers, but can become one if they get everything right. Jayant Yadav was tried before, but his bowling has not improved till date. Remains an all rounder even today.

[vvvslaxman]

35 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

early on in his career his batting saved his spot even if he had a bad series with the ball. Sundar is similar but should bat higher

One important trait that is common between Sundar and Ashwin is they are both clutch with bat. Tilak varma is gradually displaying that with bat.  Having 11 clutch players will quiet often win you big matches. SKY for all his 360 degree skills never showed up in big games.  Even Gill has been indifferent in important games. Jadeja, Ashwin, SUndar we are blessed to have these guys. Among the new guys i see that trait in Tanush Khotian. In his short career he has played quiet a few clutch innings for Mumbai.

[tapandrun]

11 minutes ago, crictime said:

Not sure which series and year you are talking about.

 

Ashwin was one of the few cricketers, who actually kept improving. Most fall at international level. Surely hard work and skills are key ingredient as well for success at this level. So kudos to him for having such a great test career. He is a recent role model for this new lot like Washington Sundar and Manav Suthar who are not specialist bowlers, but can become one if they get everything right. Jayant Yadav was tried before, but his bowling has not improved till date. Remains an all rounder even today.

Ashwin has been fastest to 50,100,150,200,250,300,350,400 test wkt in Ind test cricketing history. He was wkt taker and match winner form game v.start.

 

Test is about ability to take 20 wkts, if we remove Kuldeep can jaddu and sundar take 20 wkts ???

 

 

[crictime]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

One important trait that is common between Sundar and Ashwin is they are both clutch with bat. Tilak varma is gradually displaying that with bat.  Having 11 clutch players will quiet often win you big matches. SKY for all his 360 degree skills never showed up in big games.  Even Gill has been indifferent in important games. Jadeja, Ashwin, SUndar we are blessed to have these guys. Among the new guys i see that trait in Tanush Khotian. In his short career he has played quiet a few clutch innings for Mumbai.

Tanush Kotian is also  all rounder. He needs to improve his bowling skills if he needs to be considered as specialist spinner at international level. The only two international class spinners post Ashwin's retirement who can get in sid eon bowling skills only are Jadeja and Kuldeep. Jadeja is nearing end of career so he will not pick wickets as he did for most part of career. Kuldeep will need support from other end. At the moment India needs to include a proper specialist spinner so that when Jadeja retires there is not much transition.

 

Manav Suthar, Washington Sundar and Tanush Kotian need severe improvement to become specialist test class spinners.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, crictime said:

Tanush Kotian is also  all rounder. He needs to improve his bowling skills if he needs to be considered as specialist spinner at international level. The only two international class spinners post Ashwin's retirement who can get in sid eon bowling skills only are Jadeja and Kuldeep. Jadeja is nearing end of career so he will not pick wickets as he did for most part of career. Kuldeep will need support from other end. At the moment India needs to include a proper specialist spinner so that when Jadeja retires there is not much transition.

 

Manav Suthar, Washington Sundar and Tanush Kotian need severe improvement to become specialist test class spinners.

Sundar is cut above Kotian. Suthar is good. He is a specialist spinner. But his accuracy over a period needs to be improved. Spinners need a lot of overs under the belt. That is why I am pissed off that they give Sundar bowling after 50 overs, 60 overs. They give him the worst end. 

[crictime]

10 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Ashwin has been fastest to 50,100,150,200,250,300,350,400 test wkt in Ind test cricketing history. He was wkt taker and match winner form game v.start.

 

Test is about ability to take 20 wkts, if we remove Kuldeep can jaddu and sundar take 20 wkts ???

 

 

Have already posted my views in this context in couple of posts on this thread. 

 

In short, Manav Suthar, Washington Sundar and Tanush Kotian need to improve their spin bowling skills a lot to be successful as specialist spinner. 

 

The wickets these all rounders pick in Ranji won't pick same numbers in international level. 

[crictime]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Sundar is cut above Kotian. Suthar is good. He is a specialist spinner. But his accuracy over a period needs to be improved. Spinners need a lot of overs under the belt. That is why I am pissed off that they give Sundar bowling after 50 overs, 60 overs. They give him the worst end. 

Suthar is not that good. Even he will not get more overs than Kukdeep and Jadeja if selected. Eperimentation will not be much at international level. Specialist spinners will always get more overs than allrounder spinner. What is surprising there?

[tapandrun]

2 minutes ago, crictime said:

Suthar is not that good. Even he will not get more overs than Kukdeep and Jadeja if selected. Eperimentation will not be much at international level. Specialist spinners will always get more overs than allrounder spinner. What is surprising there?

If they settle wth Kuldeep in test side then better idea would be to get some1 who takes ball away from RH batter. So many a LA orthodox or a leg-spinner will be better choice. 1 spinner bringing ball back into RH batter and other taking it away

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, crictime said:

Suthar is not that good. Even he will not get more overs than Kukdeep and Jadeja if selected. Eperimentation will not be much at international level. Specialist spinners will always get more overs than allrounder spinner. What is surprising there?

 

Sundar was drafted into Gabba test as Ashwin's replacement a specialist spinner. His batting skill was unknown at that point. He was playing at 7 or 8 even for his state. So he was a specialist spinner. His batting talent overshadowed his bowling skill. Even at Lords SUndar was the one who brought India back into the game by picking up 4 key middle order wickets. Also he was the one who trapped Stokes right before lunch with a 5.2 degree drift. But yet he was ignored. 

[crictime]

10 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

If they settle wth Kuldeep in test side then better idea would be to get some1 who takes ball away from RH batter. So many a LA orthodox or a leg-spinner will be better choice. 1 spinner bringing ball back into RH batter and other taking it away

I think the Team think tank are having a proper strategy right now.

 

Does Sundar deserves to be in test team. Yes, as an allrounder he fits in depending on where the series is and who the opponents are. Did the think tank pick him in 11 as all rounder. Yes, they did.And he was given a decent number of overs. So rather than expecting him to develop as a specialist spinner, an unrealistic expecation, they have not burdened him with that roke. Instead they have given that burden of picking wickets to Jadeja and Kuldeep which is absolutely the right thing to do and allow Sundar to learn so thag he imoroves nire in the shadows of proper specialist spinners. And I wont be surprised to see a similar approach with Manav Suthar and Tanush Kotian. 

 

I think Sundar is doing fine as all rounder. So when there is need of allrounder who bowls spin in some tests, he has given enough performances to get selected.

[Lord]

2 hours ago, crictime said:

I think the Team think tank are having a proper strategy right now.

 

Does Sundar deserves to be in test team. Yes, as an allrounder he fits in depending on where the series is and who the opponents are. Did the think tank pick him in 11 as all rounder. Yes, they did.And he was given a decent number of overs. So rather than expecting him to develop as a specialist spinner, an unrealistic expecation, they have not burdened him with that roke. Instead they have given that burden of picking wickets to Jadeja and Kuldeep which is absolutely the right thing to do and allow Sundar to learn so thag he imoroves nire in the shadows of proper specialist spinners. And I wont be surprised to see a similar approach with Manav Suthar and Tanush Kotian. 

 

I think Sundar is doing fine as all rounder. So when there is need of allrounder who bowls spin in some tests, he has given enough performances to get selected.

But he’s bowling better than Jadeja now. 

[crictime]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

But he’s bowling better than Jadeja now. 

 

 

Bowling in tests:

Ravindra Jadeja
Average -  25.21
Strike rate -  58.3

 

Kuldeep Yadav
Average -  21.68
Strike rate -  36.8

 

 

Washington Sundar
Average -  30.25
Strike rate -  54.1

 

Kuldeep Yadav has the better combination of average and strike rate. 

 

Jadeja and Sundar have a higher strike rate.

 

But Jadeja has been a wonderful cricketer overall, with the quantity of wickets he has taken, the batting performances he has given and being the best feilder in the team for years. He is 36 now and we need to accept the dip in form and need to transition from him in this stage of career.

[Majestic]

Washington needs to be utilised more. That’s all I can say. He doesn’t need to be a shadow A/R to Jadeja. If you gonna play Jadeja ahead in batting order, then use Washington more with bowl.

 

One thing I feel India needs from both is to be more aggressive with bat and play impactful knocks rather than contending with a not out. Jadeja did it for long and Sundar also has ended up with quite a bit of not outs already. Instead play impactful knocks, don’t really like these 20s and 30s not outs.

[vvvslaxman]

33 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Washington needs to be utilised more. That’s all I can say. He doesn’t need to be a shadow A/R to Jadeja. If you gonna play Jadeja ahead in batting order, then use Washington more with bowl.

 

One thing I feel India needs from both is to be more aggressive with bat and play impactful knocks rather than contending with a not out. Jadeja did it for long and Sundar also has ended up with quite a bit of not outs already. Instead play impactful knocks, don’t really like these 20s and 30s not outs.

Sundar literally won the most impactful player award voted by his own peers.

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Washington needs to be utilised more. That’s all I can say. He doesn’t need to be a shadow A/R to Jadeja. If you gonna play Jadeja ahead in batting order, then use Washington more with bowl.

 

One thing I feel India needs from both is to be more aggressive with bat and play impactful knocks rather than contending with a not out. Jadeja did it for long and Sundar also has ended up with quite a bit of not outs already. Instead play impactful knocks, don’t really like these 20s and 30s not outs.

Batting at 8, those 30s and 40s are equally valuable when the number 9, 10, 11 are all basically number 11s.

 

Got to bat at 5 in England, hit a 100*, had specialist batsmen with him when he came in at 9, hit a 50.

 

He should not be seen as Ashwin's replacement, that spot has gone to Kuldeep. Sundar is a batting all rounder and should be seen as one 

[Lord]

10 hours ago, crictime said:

 

 

Bowling in tests:

Ravindra Jadeja
Average -  25.21
Strike rate -  58.3

 

Kuldeep Yadav
Average -  21.68
Strike rate -  36.8

 

 

Washington Sundar
Average -  30.25
Strike rate -  54.1

 

Kuldeep Yadav has the better combination of average and strike rate. 

 

Jadeja and Sundar have a higher strike rate.

 

But Jadeja has been a wonderful cricketer overall, with the quantity of wickets he has taken, the batting performances he has given and being the best feilder in the team for years. He is 36 now and we need to accept the dip in form and need to transition from him in this stage of career.

 

I'm talking about current form. Washi is bowling better and needs to be used more