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Sundar's role in whiteball cricket

rollingstoned

By rollingstoned
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rollingstoned Grand Master

rollingstoned

Posted
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Posted
2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

People who question his place in Test side is out of their mind. Pretty much every single run he scored recently came at the most crucial time be it is the 144 partneship with GIll or flourished finish at Oval or  match saving 100 at Edgbaston with injured pant the only batsman left, or that 100 partnership with Reddy at the MCG  when everyone was gone.  WIth ball he was the one who even made that possible we could win the Lords test. He was selected by his fellow players as the MVP. Scoring a 186 at AHmedabad road, 100 at perth against 3rd change bowlers may look good. But those are impactless runs. He scores when it matters.

 

In the first test all INdia needed was one more innings like Sundar's to win the test.  That is how the low scoring it was. Scoring runs on easy paced batting track is one thing. He is not going anywhere.

Correct, Sundar's body of work in tests is impressive despite not being used properly and given enough chances even there. ATM as much as we criticize him even he must be confused as to what his role is and what is expected of him. 

tapandrun Grand Master

tapandrun

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Correct, Sundar's body of work in tests is impressive despite not being used properly and given enough chances even there. ATM as much as we criticize him even he must be confused as to what his role is and what is expected of him. 

The issue is not him in test, its the bowling combination and are they able to ensure 20 wkts ....???

Jadeja also scored runs in recent tests, but the primary job is to get 20 wkts..... that are not coming ...

 

Be it jadeja, sundar etc yard stick has to be same. Yes if teams is developing some player then its okay ...

 

The issue here is Ind is playing 3 spinners ... and hoping to warp up opp. but its not happening ..

 

They may have thought brining in kuldeep can give them quick wkts with him being wrist spin he can come for small spells and provide impact straight away which is not happening.

 

Jaddu and Sundar are not x-factor bowlers so they rely on longer spells to pick wkts if pitch is not supporting. Ashwin also said spinner needs longer spells to pick wkts.

With 3 spinner how can you give longer spells  ???

 

And even if you give longer spells the batting is not putting up any runs , so Ind needs quick wkts. 

 

 

 

 

vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, rollingstoned said:

Correct, Sundar's body of work in tests is impressive despite not being used properly and given enough chances even there. ATM as much as we criticize him even he must be confused as to what his role is and what is expected of him. 

If any other player were misused all over like sundar he would have been out of the side already. Forced to bat at 3. Did better than others. Then at 8 in the 2nd test. Did better than others. Made to bat at 5 at old Trafford. Made a century. 

vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

The issue is not him in test, its the bowling combination and are they able to ensure 20 wkts ....???

Jadeja also scored runs in recent tests, but the primary job is to get 20 wkts..... that are not coming ...

 

Be it jadeja, sundar etc yard stick has to be same. Yes if teams is developing some player then its okay ...

 

The issue here is Ind is playing 3 spinners ... and hoping to warp up opp. but its not happening ..

 

They may have thought brining in kuldeep can give them quick wkts with him being wrist spin he can come for small spells and provide impact straight away which is not happening.

 

Jaddu and Sundar are not x-factor bowlers so they rely on longer spells to pick wkts if pitch is not supporting. Ashwin also said spinner needs longer spells to pick wkts.

With 3 spinner how can you give longer spells  ???

 

And even if you give longer spells the batting is not putting up any runs , so Ind needs quick wkts. 

 

 

 

 

How many overs were given on average. Whenever they use him they give one over before lunch and abandon him. Spinners need a very long spell to get into groove. They are not express bowlers to be used in short burst.  He bowls 11 or 12 overs on an average per innings. England doesn't care if Bashir doesn't take wickets. They give him long spells. 

 

Second of all batting depth. Take an example of Leeds test. Sundar did not play that test.India was in commanding position in both innings. We made 5 centuries. But 6 for 39 and 7 for 41 collapse  cost us the match. If you are pure bowler with one dimensional skills you have to be extremely  good with your bowling.

Edited by vvvslaxman
tapandrun Grand Master

tapandrun

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, express bowling said:

Washington's power hitting ability has improved a lot. Infact he can hit big 6s off genuine quicks these days, especially in the mid wicket, square leg, mid-on regions.

 

But he is floated around too much and not given a specific role. This has hampered his effectiveness as a batter.

 

If you play him, give him a specific slot and specific role. Otherwise drop him. 

as other poster suggested he is another jadu like batter in white-ball cricket. even jadu had couple of good white-ball knocks in aus an in nz.

think that famous concussion replacement matched he scored runs and chahal bowled afterwards

rollingstoned Grand Master

rollingstoned

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

The issue is not him in test, its the bowling combination and are they able to ensure 20 wkts ....???

Jadeja also scored runs in recent tests, but the primary job is to get 20 wkts..... that are not coming ...

 

Be it jadeja, sundar etc yard stick has to be same. Yes if teams is developing some player then its okay ...

 

The issue here is Ind is playing 3 spinners ... and hoping to warp up opp. but its not happening ..

 

They may have thought brining in kuldeep can give them quick wkts with him being wrist spin he can come for small spells and provide impact straight away which is not happening.

 

Jaddu and Sundar are not x-factor bowlers so they rely on longer spells to pick wkts if pitch is not supporting. Ashwin also said spinner needs longer spells to pick wkts.

With 3 spinner how can you give longer spells  ???

 

And even if you give longer spells the batting is not putting up any runs , so Ind needs quick wkts. 

 

 

 

 

3 spinner combination will work if the pitch is true and spinning slowly so the cricket will be attritional. if it is like the raging turners we had the past decade many times then it is overkill.

Sundar hasn't actually done that much bowling in first class or club cricket so he is learning on the job, he seems to have the tools to be useful even in SENA though coz he gets drift. Has to find a way to put more body on the action and slow it up.

tapandrun Grand Master

tapandrun

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

How many overs were given on average. Whenever they use him they give one over before lunch and abandon him. Spinners need a very long spell to get into groove. They are not express bowlers to be used in short burst.  He bowls 11 or 12 overs on an average per innings. England doesn't care if Bashir doesn't take wickets. They give him long spells. 

 

Second of all batting depth. Take an example of Leeds test. Sundar did not play that test.India was in commanding position in both innings. We made 5 centuries. But 6 for 39 and 7 for 41 collapse  cost us the match. If you are pure bowler with one dimensional skills you have to be extremely  good with your bowling.

 

2 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

3 spinner combination will work if the pitch is true and spinning slowly so the cricket will be attritional. if it is like the raging turners we had the past decade many times then it is overkill.

Sundar hasn't actually done that much bowling in first class or club cricket so he is learning on the job, he seems to have the tools to be useful even in SENA though coz he gets drift. Has to find a way to put more body on the action and slow it up.

 

Sundar will start looking good as soon as Ind somehow start taking 20 wkts, which Ind is not taking now.

 

Most team Play 4 bowlers and 1 allrounder or some1 who can roll arms when bowlers needs to be given some rest.

 

The thing I am trying to explain is both Jadu and Sudar do not have have x-factor (anything special) in their bowling so they need longer spells to take wkts.

Do not know how much he has bowled in FCC so do not want to comment on that , since starting he been talked as some white-ball player.

 

There is another thread going on to jadeja bashing him in white-ball for the right reason, but sundar is similar player. And if you see Jadeja is better package in white-ball::LA spinner, only fielder in Ind who can bring a magic/spark moment and a similar to sundar kind of batter.. 

 

So if you play 3 spinners some1 will be under bowled , be it jaddu , sundar , or kuldeeep. Kuldeep having x-factor so they might have thought he will get wkts in small spells but he did nt. 

 

Now question comes who do you give longer spell jadu, kuldeep, sunadar. A captain would trust an exp. bowler who has done it in the past and he took a punt on kuldeep which is also logical be ing a wrist spinner he can pick wkts in bunch..Also as the batters are nt scoring much you need quick wkts.

 

I do not know where Sundar fits in to the scheme of things in test cricket if Ind is unable to pick 20 wkts.....

 

And in white-ball I already told that specialist off-spiner is not needed , plus I also told the issue with his hitting technique.  

 

ppl making case for sundar in white-ball is personal affinity ,  same thing for ppl trying to make case for pant in white-ball.

 

It should not be the personal but ability and role and responsibility 

 

 

 

 

 

Nikhil_cric Grand Master

Nikhil_cric

Posted
Posted

Washi should be increasing his bowling volume by bowling a lot in FC cricket/A tours. 

 

Offspinners only have a future in red ball cricket.   

 

With him being uselessly selected for white ball teams, he will neither develop as a first class spinner nor will be anything but wreck white ball team combinations

 

 

tapandrun Grand Master

tapandrun

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Washi should be increasing his bowling volume by bowling a lot in FC cricket/A tours. 

 

Offspinners only have a future in red ball cricket.   

 

With him being uselessly selected for white ball teams, he will neither develop as a first class spinner nor will be anything but wreck white ball team combinations

 

 

yes v.nicely explained .. 

putrevus Grand Master

putrevus

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Forever Indian said:

 

Last 3 test series against SENA this is how Sundar has fared:

 

 

We are also trying to mix formats similar to what selectors/TM are doing. He is doing his job in tests, but if the TM do not use him well then it may suffer as well. Sundar has the best technique to handle fast bowlers in and against SENA countries.

  • Tests - He should be played as a Batting allrounder at no.6
  • ODIs and T20Is - If he is played he should be played as Bowling allrounder, bowling atleast 7-8 overs regularly and bat at no.7 or 8.

 

 

 

Santner also took 12 wickets in one test in that NZ series. He is not their primary spinner.There are many spinners who have taken 10 plus wickets in test match.Axar is another example, he outbowled both jadeja and Ashwin in England series 2021.Axar won matches with both bat and ball .

 

Avg 47 when Jadeja scored 500 plus runs and had better avg  of 86  almost double avg than him there.

 

SA series ,If captain is unwilling to give you the ball when pitches are minefield also should say it all about Sundar's bowling ability.

 

Only one among Jadeja and Sundar can fit in the team and keep the team balanced.

 

Jadeja is still better allround package than Sundar in tests.

 

 

 

 

Edited by putrevus
putrevus Grand Master

putrevus

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

 

Sundar will start looking good as soon as Ind somehow start taking 20 wkts, which Ind is not taking now.

 

Most team Play 4 bowlers and 1 allrounder or some1 who can roll arms when bowlers needs to be given some rest.

 

The thing I am trying to explain is both Jadu and Sudar do not have have x-factor (anything special) in their bowling so they need longer spells to take wkts.

Do not know how much he has bowled in FCC so do not want to comment on that , since starting he been talked as some white-ball player.

 

There is another thread going on to jadeja bashing him in white-ball for the right reason, but sundar is similar player. And if you see Jadeja is better package in white-ball::LA spinner, only fielder in Ind who can bring a magic/spark moment and a similar to sundar kind of batter.. 

 

So if you play 3 spinners some1 will be under bowled , be it jaddu , sundar , or kuldeeep. Kuldeep having x-factor so they might have thought he will get wkts in small spells but he did nt. 

 

Now question comes who do you give longer spell jadu, kuldeep, sunadar. A captain would trust an exp. bowler who has done it in the past and he took a punt on kuldeep which is also logical be ing a wrist spinner he can pick wkts in bunch..Also as the batters are nt scoring much you need quick wkts.

 

I do not know where Sundar fits in to the scheme of things in test cricket if Ind is unable to pick 20 wkts.....

 

And in white-ball I already told that specialist off-spiner is not needed , plus I also told the issue with his hitting technique.  

 

ppl making case for sundar in white-ball is personal affinity ,  same thing for ppl trying to make case for pant in white-ball.

 

It should not be the personal but ability and role and responsibility 

 

 

 

 

 

Simple question needs to be asked in tests. If Sundar, Jadeja and Kuldeep can 20 wickets on decent pitches. and if answer is no then  havng Sundar and jadeja weakens both batting and bowling.

 

 

Second Sundar is not top 5 batsman that is for sure.

 

What is he then. Some people here are making him into Gary Sobers based on one fifty five years ago and other 100 on flat pitch where Jadeja also scored 100.

 

Jadeja is better allrounder than Sundar in all aspects. 

 

vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

 

Sundar will start looking good as soon as Ind somehow start taking 20 wkts, which Ind is not taking now.

 

Most team Play 4 bowlers and 1 allrounder or some1 who can roll arms when bowlers needs to be given some rest.

 

The thing I am trying to explain is both Jadu and Sudar do not have have x-factor (anything special) in their bowling so they need longer spells to take wkts.

Do not know how much he has bowled in FCC so do not want to comment on that , since starting he been talked as some white-ball player.

 

There is another thread going on to jadeja bashing him in white-ball for the right reason, but sundar is similar player. And if you see Jadeja is better package in white-ball::LA spinner, only fielder in Ind who can bring a magic/spark moment and a similar to sundar kind of batter.. 

 

So if you play 3 spinners some1 will be under bowled , be it jaddu , sundar , or kuldeeep. Kuldeep having x-factor so they might have thought he will get wkts in small spells but he did nt. 

 

Now question comes who do you give longer spell jadu, kuldeep, sunadar. A captain would trust an exp. bowler who has done it in the past and he took a punt on kuldeep which is also logical be ing a wrist spinner he can pick wkts in bunch..Also as the batters are nt scoring much you need quick wkts.

 

I do not know where Sundar fits in to the scheme of things in test cricket if Ind is unable to pick 20 wkts.....

 

And in white-ball I already told that specialist off-spiner is not needed , plus I also told the issue with his hitting technique.  

 

ppl making case for sundar in white-ball is personal affinity ,  same thing for ppl trying to make case for pant in white-ball.

 

It should not be the personal but ability and role and responsibility 

 

 

 

 

 

You cant pin that on sundar for India.not being able to pick 20 wickets. Sundar was the best bowlers in NZ series in that historical series loss. He would have done better with bat had he been promoted. He looked the most comfortable with bat. Blame the one dimensional bowlers. Sundar didn't play at Leeds? Did we taken20 wickets?

tapandrun Grand Master

tapandrun

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You cant pin that on sundar for India.not being able to pick 20 wickets. Sundar was the best bowlers in NZ series in that historical series loss. He would have done better with bat had he been promoted. He looked the most comfortable with bat. Blame the one dimensional bowlers. Sundar didn't play at Leeds? Did we taken20 wickets?

i am not pinning anything on sundar, my observations are in general about team combination. if ball is not going to turn from ball 1, 3 spinners are too much.

some 1 will bowl less number of overs.  

 

it does not matter if 3 bowlers are kuldeep+axar/sundar+jadeja or any combination of them or 3 entirely different set of spinners

express bowling Grand Master

express bowling

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tapandrun said:

as other poster suggested he is another jadu like batter in white-ball cricket. even jadu had couple of good white-ball knocks in aus an in nz.

think that famous concussion replacement matched he scored runs and chahal bowled afterwards

 

I would like Riyan Parag as the first choice LOI batter who can bowl spin. But he is not even in the squad. 

 

ODIs ....

 

1. Gill

2. Rohit

3. Kohli

4. Shreyas / Gaikwad

5. Keeper batsman

6. Parag

7. Hardik

8. Axar

9. Harshit / Arshdeep 

10. Kuldeep

11. Bumrah 

Edited by express bowling
putrevus Grand Master

putrevus

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Prabhdeep Singh said:

Need to be out of all formats, better batsmen and all rounder available in India:

 

Test Cricket Options:

 

Tilak

Sarfaraz

Rinku

Tanush Kotian

Shams Mulani

Shreyas Gopal

Shabaz Ahmed 

Manav Suther

 

ODI Options:

 

Riyan Parag

Tilak

Rinku

Axar

 

Tilak and Sarfraz should be tried in middle order.They have better FC records.Tilak is better batsman than Sundar. If the don't work move on next set of batsmen .

 

This was perfect series to test out Riyan Parag in odis in place of both Sundar and Jadeja.

vvvslaxman Grand Master

vvvslaxman

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

i am not pinning anything on sundar, my observations are in general about team combination. if ball is not going to turn from ball 1, 3 spinners are too much.

some 1 will bowl less number of overs.  

 

it does not matter if 3 bowlers are kuldeep+axar/sundar+jadeja or any combination of them or 3 entirely different set of spinners

We were the best bowling unit in thr world for 5 years because of support seamers and Ash and Jaddu combo. Now we are in transition phase.  We lost Ishant first. Thankfully siraj somewhat covered it. We lost umesh at home.  Ashwin covered for it. Now we have lost shami as well.  Sundar lacks experience.  He needs a lot of overs under  his belt to evolve. Same goes for Kuldeep. Give them a lot of overs to evolve. In this day and age it is rare to find a batsman who can do well across different countries different conditions  showing good technique temperament and game awareness.   Our batsmen either struggle against pace  or bounce or turn. Some have great technique and invariably choke. If they really want to get the most out of him give him more overs.  He is not the problem. It is the full time batsmen and full time bowlers are the problem. Jadeja will soon leave. If you take out sundar you will continue lose last 6 wickets 30 odd runs

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