asterix Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 What are you talking about? Laloo himself used this guy in the 2005 by elections in November. And are you trying to imply that Laloo is someone who will consider morals at the cost of votes in the 'alliance compulsions'. Election strategies change..Especially after 4-5 years. Maybe Osama was "hot news" in 2005 when he issuing various statements and was active. In 2009, Osama was not so "hot news"..There could've been some other issues on which these 2 gentlemen wanted to focus on. Just because they didn't used the "same" strategy doesn't means that the earlier strategy failed. The Fake Osama became very popular in 2005. He was all over the news.
The Outsider Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Election strategies change..Especially after 4-5 years. Maybe Osama was "hot news" in 2005 when he issuing various statements and was active. In 2009' date=' Osama was not so "hot news"..There could've been some other issues on which these 2 gentlemen wanted to focus on. Just because they didn't used the "same" strategy doesn't means that the earlier strategy failed. The Fake Osama became very popular in 2005. He was all over the news.[/quote'] Being a popular election gimmick is different from translating into votes and there is no evidence that it translated into votes given that Paswan was routed when he used him in the 2005 assembly elections and so was Laloo when he used him in the by elections later that year.
Prakat Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 The only thing the "Osama lookalike" issue reveals is the level of cynicism that our politicians bring to their vocation.
Mariyam Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Politicians like Ram Vilas Paswan has won elections using Osama lookalike mascot in Bihar. Bihar has quite a sizable Muslim population. Don't know why he used Osama look alike as a mascot? Yes this is true and sad indeed. But there is a world of difference in winning an election by fielding an Osama look alike and winning one because of fielding an Osama look alike. It only goes on to show how gullible our populace is. Education is the answer. Its unfortunate that Shatrughan Sinha mouthing a few retarded dialogues from his boring movies or Paswan fielding a Bin Laden clone are tactics used today. But I suspect. these tactics might be employed only to get some footfalls at the rallies.
Mariyam Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Ravi, Let me put it this way. Indian Muslims ( very vast majority) have never considered Osama as some kind of a hero or a leading light of Islam. I don't even know if he had any necessary theological credentials to issue a fatwa. Indian Muslims never considered Osama to be the torch bearer of Islam in the first place nor did his brand of Islam (or perversion of Islam) find an acceptance in any section of Indian Muslims so where is the question of denouncing him? Why must I denounce Osama when I never ever thought of him to be worthy of my support in the first place? Why can't it be assumed that we Indian Muslims think of him as nothing more than a criminal who killed innocent people just like it is assumed for any other Indian? Not a single Indian Muslim has been associated with Al Qaeda. Isn't that proof of the fact that their methods have been rejected? Just because some news channels showed you sound bites of 1or 2 crazy moulanas spewing out some Anti-American rubbish, does it mean that the remainder 14 odd crore Muslims in India have an obligation to prove that they were not a part of Osama's dream team? If these handful of moulanas can be extrapolated to represent all of India's Muslims, then why not SRK or Azeem Premji who donate largely to charity? Why are their actions non representative? All this nonsense about " not enough" criticism is really humiliating and illogical. What is criticism anyways? Ironically and unfortunately, it’s the bullets and bombs from the Pakistani terrorists that carries a greater proof for the loyalty and sense of belonging of the Indian Muslim. At least they look at us no differently than other, like how some here on ICF do, and they snuff out our lives without sitting in judgment over our level of patriotism. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, expecting me to answer and justify about what happens in Egypt or Tunisia or where ever is absolutely unfair. The argument is not about the Islamic world. Its about India. So is saying "can you name 100, because there are 1.5 billion of you". What a load of rubbish. Some of you lack perspective. Shivani and Aaku ( big hug to both :icflove:) are roughly my age, give or take 1 or 2 years, and probably have similar ambitions in life as me and are equally not responsible for the ills plaguing their section of the society. Would you grill them about honour killings in Haryana and ask them to name 100 people who have criticized honour killings form a community of 90 crores? Its not me being discriminatory here. Its you guys. Ravi, I expect an answer. :P
saneindian Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Talking of the Osama lookalike and his impact on Bihar elections, well for the last 3-4 years he has been with Nitish Kumar and at one point of time was close to getting a ticket for the upper house from JDU. Even though his claim to fame is being a lookalike of Osama, he is actually a successful businessman and his dad was a close associate of George Fernandes during Lohia's socialist movement in the 60s and 70s. He runs a number of minority educational insitutions in Bihar and thats where his hold on a section of the muslim vote comes from and not due to his resemblance to Osama. Obviously you will never see the media highlight the work the guy has done for the masses and instead go with a storyline that suits the popular agenda.
Homerus_Unus Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 You are mighty confused here. The entire debate started off when a poster from Texas ( not you) said something that implied that the sole reason Afzal Guru wasn't executed was vote bank politics. So, I was under the impression that we were talking about things in the Indian context. Well...I wasn't, like I mentioned, so that clears any misconception. That said....I STILL AWAIT on your explanation about "freedom and Texas." :hmmm: That is your opinion. I cannot name you a 100. But that is ignorance on my part. What does that have to do with the discussion? The discussion was about the issues (most notably, radicalism) facing the Islamic world, is it not? My arguments are primarily going to be based on my interactions with people or my observations. Hence, arguments from bias sample/selective observations or arguments from authority, like I said earlier. I need more substantiation than one person's perspective. You have to realize that if these guys do not deliver the goods, their position as leaders is very shaky. If you want to know more about community based service that some of these guys have done, especially in the field of education feel free to ask me. Be warned that the post could be quite long. Or you can name names, and I can do the research myself. I have nothing but praise for genuine social workers and educators. I am not the spokeswoman for Muslims worldwide or for the wider Islamic world? I speak only from an Indian perspective, because I am aware of things here. And in India, it is said that Muslims communities typically have a higher voter turnout that the others. So there is a resonance with the whole democratic process. Your question on the lack of institutions in the Islamic world that facilitate the growth of democratic ideas is a very relevant one. Apart from a few nations, like Indonesia , Iran, Bangladesh and Malaysia, in most of the countries in the Muslim world, people do not have a say in matters of governance. However, I stay in India and not in the wider Islamic world. I don't have answers to any of those questions. My question was not whether Muslims prescribe to a democratic process but whether they're capable of allowing and voicing SANE, RATIONAL, OPINIONS to counter and maybe even drown out the radical ones. Secondly, I didn't hold you accountable or consider you a spokesperson for the Islamic world by any means, and therefore your appeal to pity is unwarranted. We are having discussion here. I may put forth my questions in a firm manner and ask the tough questions, but my attempt is to have a discussion, exchange ideas and view things the way they are and to call them what they are. As far as " Kill the Juice" fella is concerned, I think he has been totally assimilated into mainstream US society. He even spells like an American. :P I see you completely avoided answering what I asked you. Here it is again: "Will Mr. "Kill all the (Zionist) Juice" ever see an opposing rally...if only to correct his atrocious spelling?" I meant...will "Mr. Kill all the Juice" ever see an opposing rally from fellow-Muslims, like the liberal and non-racist Caucasians who rally against the 20-odd fellow Caucasian KKK dingbats marching in Alabama on a hot summer day? Pathetic attempts at humor, smileys, and an even more pathetic attempts at misdirection get you nowhere, lady.
Homerus_Unus Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 So is saying "can you name 100' date=' because there are 1.5 billion of you". What a load of rubbish. Some of you lack perspective. [/quote'] If you wish to make a snide reference to me, make that in your response to my post, will you? Such subterfuge indicates cowardice and a lack of acumen in posting cogent arguments when asked. You claimed ignorance on your part in my response and now you whinge about that in your response to Ravi....funny. You can learn a thing or two from the likes of Naser Khader, Tarek Fatah, and Irshad Manji. By asking you to name a 100 (doesn't mean you give me 99+1 names...it's a figure of speech) rational sane minds working against radicalism in the Islamic world, I have asked for justification and wish to be convinced by the same and yet you stoop to logical fallacies and ad-hominem remarks in your rebuttals. Surprising though that you say this: "If you want to know more about community based service that some of these guys have done, especially in the field of education feel free to ask me. Be warned that the post could be quite long." So, somehow you could conjure a list of names and promise a long post when you see it fit to support your POV, eh? And way to answer Ravi's argument. If you don't know squat, don't turn his remarks into a personal attack and play the victim when you feel the heat. What he said is legitimate and sadly true about the Islamic world. I see misdirection still works. You know what...if they are Haryanvis and have an opinion on the khaps/honor killings, I'll definitely ask them the tough questions. Guaranteed. Waaah! The reason you're here is because you had an opinion and as things stand, we're still debating. So stop whinging. If you're so against discrimination and blanket statements, then don't person spouting similar crap about Freedom in Texas without an ounce of evidence and then conveniently ignore any requests for corroboration.
ravishingravi Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Why can't it be assumed that we Indian Muslims think of him as nothing more than a criminal who killed innocent people just like it is assumed for any other Indian? I am assuming that muslims or majority of them do not support Osama. My argument is about those who question the position of muslims in context of these radicals their arguments. As muslims Indian or not went gung ho at the Denish newspaper ( including one who called for his beheading ). So a perversion of Islam be it by a Dennish Newspaper and Salman Rushdie can warrant a "strong" protest, it is indeed quite something that radical Islamic terrorists and the radical brutal govt's who use the narrative of Islam and Sharia to justify their action warrant no protest. So, if someoneone makes an argument to me,"how do I know where they stand" and claims that their passive response can be taken as compliance, I really don't have much to add on why the usually emotional muslims have chosen to sit this one out/ Not a single Indian Muslim has been associated with Al Qaeda. Isn't that proof of the fact that their methods have been rejected? Just because some news channels showed you sound bites of 1or 2 crazy moulanas spewing out some Anti-American rubbish' date=' does it mean that the remainder 14 odd crore Muslims in India have an obligation to prove that they were not a part of Osama's dream team?[/quote']
rahulrulezz Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Ravi, Let me put it this way. Indian Muslims ( very vast majority) have never considered Osama as some kind of a hero or a leading light of Islam. I don't even know if he had any necessary theological credentials to issue a fatwa. Indian Muslims never considered Osama to be the torch bearer of Islam in the first place nor did his brand of Islam (or perversion of Islam) find an acceptance in any section of Indian Muslims so where is the question of denouncing him? Why must I denounce Osama when I never ever thought of him to be worthy of my support in the first place? Why can't it be assumed that we Indian Muslims think of him as nothing more than a criminal who killed innocent people just like it is assumed for any other Indian? Not a single Indian Muslim has been associated with Al Qaeda. Isn't that proof of the fact that their methods have been rejected? Just because some news channels showed you sound bites of 1or 2 crazy moulanas spewing out some Anti-American rubbish, does it mean that the remainder 14 odd crore Muslims in India have an obligation to prove that they were not a part of Osama's dream team? If these handful of moulanas can be extrapolated to represent all of India's Muslims, then why not SRK or Azeem Premji who donate largely to charity? Why are their actions non representative? All this nonsense about " not enough" criticism is really humiliating and illogical. What is criticism anyways? Ironically and unfortunately, it’s the bullets and bombs from the Pakistani terrorists that carries a greater proof for the loyalty and sense of belonging of the Indian Muslim. At least they look at us no differently than other, like how some here on ICF do, and they snuff out our lives without sitting in judgment over our level of patriotism. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, expecting me to answer and justify about what happens in Egypt or Tunisia or where ever is absolutely unfair. The argument is not about the Islamic world. Its about India. So is saying "can you name 100, because there are 1.5 billion of you". What a load of rubbish. Some of you lack perspective. Shivani and Aaku ( big hug to both :icflove:) are roughly my age, give or take 1 or 2 years, and probably have similar ambitions in life as me and are equally not responsible for the ills plaguing their section of the society. Would you grill them about honour killings in Haryana and ask them to name 100 people who have criticized honour killings form a community of 90 crores? Its not me being discriminatory here. Its you guys. seriously Mariyam but this is an effing brilliant post!! Read this post 3 days back but was still buzzing in my head even today...
yoda Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Indian Muslims reject Osama. http://www.indiyanews.com/2011/05/indian-muslims-reject-osama/
EnterTheVoid Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Indian Muslims reject Osama. http://www.indiyanews.com/2011/05/indian-muslims-reject-osama/ And they had to come out and openly say that? I mean, WTF. Who the hell is insinuating Indian Muslims support Osama in the first place?
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