Trichromatic Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 Though your words are rather harsh, I agree with your overall sentiment. It is more or less a necessity for a person to master English to succeed in any wake of life in modern day India. Almost any, maybe you can still be a successful rich farmer in Punjab if you don't know English. But thats about it. English has become indispensable. I got chance to interact with a Chinese last year. Few points that I noted from many converstations. He always appreciated the fact that how Indians have better knowledge of English. He told me that career in English in China is itself as lucrative career as Engg. and medical career in India. Though I'm not exactly sure what career in English means. Do companies hire English speaking people just for communication there? In Chinese, maximum stress is always given on learning English. However the difference between India and China is that there people have to speak it in British accent also. Those who speak in Chinese accent are considered similar to "dehatis". This is where he said India has done better. According to him, India adopted English but instead of directly taking it as it is Indians have assimilated it as Indian English (in terms of speaking) and Hinglish. Kids have to learn English, but they are not forced to do it in a fixed way. We have easily modified according to our needs. Kids who've grown up in Mumbai who can't construct a sentence in Hindi without injecting 1-2 English words in between. It becomes the norm. These include kids who come from literary families. These kids/youth have nothing but scorn for works of literature of Indian authors ( non English). :(( This is true of those who grow up in Marathi, Gujarati speaking households too. Even they have to use English words in every sentence. Personally speaking, I prefer Hindi/Urdu to English, in terms of day to day communication. I think ( the few times that I do) in that language. And I can express myself better in that language. On this forum, I refrain from speaking in Hindi because South Indians, NRIs, South Indians who are NRIs and other such uncouth barbaric people should get a chance to read and enjoy my posts.* There are very few Hindi/Urdu speakers left. Its Hinglish all the way. (*) Joking Hindi has always undergone modifications over a period of time because of influence of different languages. That's why we see words of many languages in Hindi. One can say that influence of English in spoken Hindi is more than any other language. One of the main reason for this is the way Hindi is taught to us. We learn it from parents. We use it for speaking whole life. But we study Hindi as a subject. We write in Hindi till 8th grade or 10th grade. After that we rarely write in Hindi. Two years ago, when I decided to write an application in Hindi, I was surprised that I had to think twice about few spellings. I was surprised because in school days, I never made a spelling mistake and my answer sheets/copies never got a red mark from teacher's pen (except for marking), despite the fact that I used to write fluently then. Do you remember when was the last time when you wrote a full paragraph in Hindi? I'm sure you use it for communicating with family, friends, but you don't use it in writings. On the other hand we almost write everything in English, but we do not use English in speaking as much as we do in writing. This is one of the biggest reasons of why kids can't speak a sentence in Hindi without inserting words of English. Traditionally, for any person a his/her main language is used for speaking and writing both. But this unusual situation of Hindi speakers has resulted in mixing of vocabulary of two languages.
Lurker Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 I got chance to interact with a Chinese last year. Few points that I noted from many converstations. He always appreciated the fact that how Indians have better knowledge of English. He told me that career in English in China is itself as lucrative career as Engg. and medical career in India. Though I'm not exactly sure what career in English means. Do companies hire English speaking people just for communication there? In Chinese, maximum stress is always given on learning English. However the difference between India and China is that there people have to speak it in British accent also. Those who speak in Chinese accent are considered similar to "dehatis". This is where he said India has done better. According to him, India adopted English but instead of directly taking it as it is Indians have assimilated it as Indian English (in terms of speaking) and Hinglish. Perhaps because Chinese never had the good "fortune" of having somebody like Lord McCaulay? McCaulay of course is famous for ripping off the existing educational system of India, largely done in Persian, Sanskrit and other local languages, as these languages were "sub-standard" and pushed English as the langua-franca so as to "educate" the masses and get to the level of Western world?? Current generation of Indians have fallen head over heels to prove the likes of McCaulay correct. If Asharul-haq-Majaaz was around he would probably rant - Usne to khair apnon se moda tha muhn majaaz, maine ye kya kiya ke main gairon se jaa milaa. Top 10 innovative companies in the world Hindustan Unilever is at #6 and BHEL is at #9. I don't know how they've computed 'innovation', but if this is true, things aren't all that bleak after all. Thanks for sharing. Great to see BHEL in there. It is one of the greatest companies we have built in modern India :agree:
Vijay.Sharma Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 No language is inherently superior to another. What matters is the ability to communicate. To be honest, I cannot have a conversation with anyone in any other language than English....not even with my parents and bro. With my mom I speak in sambhar...and she is the only person I speak sambhar with. And our sambhar is less of sambhar and more of fish n chips. With me dad it is gongura...same case - more of English than gongura Me bro and I used to converse in kannada and 'bangalore english'. So we have 3 languages going on in the family and yet the underlying foundation is english. Functional english not grammatically correct english. (for the uninitiated, sambhar = tamil, gongura = telugu) The one language I want to learn is Sanskrit. I think it is the most logically constructed language and stresses on simplicity more than anything else. The language I absolutely love to hear a conversation in is Urdu...no other language has the regality that Urdu has. The language I am most comfy with is English. And I think English is truly the best language, as things stand today, to be used as a global language. Would you believe that English as a language did not even exist in any proper way until about the 16th century? Frnacis Bacon is primarily responsible for making English a proper language. English is possibly the language which contains the most amount of influences from other languages. It is pretty functional in nature. With the Americanization of English even the spellings are becoming better. And as an Indian I don't find it shameful that we give importance to English. What I don't like is using language as a pseudo for one-upmanship. So what if it is a foreign language? That way all languages are foreign right? We can also view it from another perspective - English is just one of the latest of languages that comes from the tree of Sanskrit...so in a way it has found it's way back home. With regards the italics above, before ppl start jumping up and yelling blasphemy, please make yourselves aware of the history of language development in humanity.
flamy Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 ^ How come you speak sambhar and gongura and have a northie last name? :hmmm:
Vijay.Sharma Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 ^ How come you speak sambhar and gongura and have a northie last name? :hmmm:It's actually not a surname...it's more like a title. Like 'Shastri' is also a title. Some gonguras spell it as 'Sarma'. Similarly Dixit, Bharadwaj, Kashyap, Acharya are also titles. If I am not wrong, it has something to do with the lineage / gurukuis of the 7 great rishis of the ancient times. You have Sharmas as Punjabis, Marwaris, and even UP-ites. 'Gupta' is also a "surname" you find in both north and south and east. Dutta/Datta/Dutt is another such multi-lingual surname.
punjabi_khota Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 What **** ****ery is going on here ? English came from Sanskrit ? :WTF: Is there anything the great ancient Indians didn't invent
flamy Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 What **** ****ery is going on here ? English came from Sanskrit ? :WTF: Is there anything the great ancient Indians didn't invent self-loather :hehe:
flamy Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 It's actually not a surname...it's more like a title. Like 'Shastri' is also a title. Some gonguras spell it as 'Sarma'. Similarly Dixit, Bharadwaj, Kashyap, Acharya are also titles. If I am not wrong, it has something to do with the lineage / gurukuis of the 7 great rishis of the ancient times. You have Sharmas as Punjabis, Marwaris, and even UP-ites. 'Gupta' is also a "surname" you find in both north and south and east. Dutta/Datta/Dutt is another such multi-lingual surname. OK. Now I can respect you. But only half-way - the gongura part. :D Sambhar
Alchemist Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 What **** ****ery is going on here ? English came from Sanskrit ? :WTF: Is there anything the great ancient Indians didn't invent Looking at the population, I think answer to your question must be must be c**dom.
Mariyam Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 Do you remember when was the last time when you wrote a full paragraph in Hindi? I'm sure you use it for communicating with family, friends, but you don't use it in writings. On the other hand we almost write everything in English, but we do not use English in speaking as much as we do in writing. This is one of the biggest reasons of why kids can't speak a sentence in Hindi without inserting words of English. Traditionally, for any person a his/her main language is used for speaking and writing both. But this unusual situation of Hindi speakers has resulted in mixing of vocabulary of two languages. This is a very good point, i.e people thinking/speaking in one language and writing in another. I don't remember the last time I've written in Hindi. Probably for a school exam eons ago. Those who study in vernacs end up being better at both English and their mothertongue, in the long run. That is my observation. The are very articulate in their mothertongue, and what ever backlog they have wrt English is gone by the time they are in their 20s. But at least Hindi has decent editors, writers in the contemporary print media. The state of Urdu is even more pitiable. Urdu newspapers ( don't read them anymore) are a total mess. Maybe they are better in Lucknow or Delhi, but in Mumbai they are one big tabloid. They often use the same stylized phrases many times in an article. By doing so they do a disservice to the language and to reporting. The language doesn't seem natural to the editors. Can't remember the last good Urdu book that was released in recent times. The worst of the lot are Hyderabadi Urdu newspapers. Apart from the script, there is nothing Urdu about them. They have articles which read like " Wazir e Azam Dr. Manmohan Singh ki siyasati mamlon pe khamoshi. Una ajun talak kuch bhi nahi bola..... " Not only is the news sensationalized, its in Hyderabadi slang Urdu. :D I have preserved a few cut outs. I'll post them as I find them. /end small rant :((
f.b.m Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 /end small rant :(( I'm disappointed. I expected atleast ~500 words. :( On topic: Does anyone know of a work of art or literature of the kind that this 'renaissance brigade' look for which was created with a mindset that 'look our lot havent come up with arts and stuff but those people have, lets go do something..'? All I can think of are rather unflattering examples: Link 1 [ame= The pitfalls of representin' [/ame]
Laaloo Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 What **** ****ery is going on here ? English came from Sanskrit ? :WTF: Is there anything the great ancient Indians didn't invent Phaast bowlers?
Vijay.Sharma Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 On topic: Does anyone know of a work of art or literature of the kind that this 'renaissance brigade' look for which was created with a mindset that 'look our lot havent come up with arts and stuff but those people have' date= lets go do something..'? I didn't quite understand what you were intending to convey there...can you explain a lil...
f.b.m Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 I didn't quite understand what you were intending to convey there...can you explain a lil... The OP explains it far better than I could: [ Indian Renaissance] Needs to happen .... We need folks to write some great books (which get translated to different languages), paint some great pictures, create new ideas (not of cost saving), go clean and grean, create great archicture, make some great films that everyone around the world wants to see either dubbed or w/ subtitles, create great original music From what I recall, one in every 6th person walking the planet is of Bharatiya origin but I don't see much contribution towards arts and culture .... Is this something that needs to be developed at the school level? Ind needs to develop a culture where creativity is promoted and encouraged How can someone be creative with a chip on their shoulder is my question.
Vijay.Sharma Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 How can someone be creative with a chip on their shoulder is my question.Thanks! And the chip would read something like "renaissance = pre-modern/medieval eruption of european renaissance" as far as expression, creativity, philosophy, and thoughts go? For ex - "literature greatness is underlined by it's likeness to Shakespeare, Bacon", "art greatness is underlined by it's likeness to van gogh, da vinci", "philosophy greatness is underlined by it's likeness to Rene Descartes, Kant". Is that the chip you are referring to
f.b.m Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks! And the chip would read something like "renaissance = pre-modern/medieval eruption of european renaissance" as far as expression, creativity, philosophy, and thoughts go? For ex - "literature greatness is underlined by it's likeness to Shakespeare, Bacon", "art greatness is underlined by it's likeness to van gogh, da vinci", "philosophy greatness is underlined by it's likeness to Rene Descartes, Kant". Is that the chip you are referring to More or less what I'm referring to. Maybe I'm an culture illiterate but I dont know of anything meaningful that was produced with a 'We've got to create our own version of ....' mentality.
flamy Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 How can someone be creative with a chip on their shoulder is my question. More or less what I'm referring to. Maybe I'm an culture illiterate but I dont know of anything meaningful that was produced with a 'We've got to create our own version of ....' mentality. fabulous, I was gonna say smth similar, but you said it better. =) So, would someone kindly share their interpretation of what art means to them?
Vijay.Sharma Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 More or less what I'm referring to. Maybe I'm an culture illiterate but I dont know of anything meaningful that was produced with a 'We've got to create our own version of ....' mentality.Agree with Flames about your expression. "Create" and "version" are words that don't come together very well when the idea is supposed to be original. I think some (not all) of our oldies are still smitten by the colonial ideology. I think our younger lot (lotsa them here on ICF too) are expressing themselves without inhibitions. Expressions without inhibitions are usually honest. An honest expression compels people to notice it. Notice morphs into observation and observation reveals the originality of the expression. The 'expression' which was so far just that, now is identified as a new art form or a new genre of an art form. So what has changed to make a mere expression an art form? The expression itself has not undergone any change. The change lies in the act of noticing and observing...the act of perception. In other words, "art" is what its perceiver chooses it to be - beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, and all. If you look through the same lenses you will see the same picture. Change the lens and you change the picture. Maybe the renaissance is happening all around us at this very moment? Maybe we are the renaissance? Maybe we need to learn to view things differently (as in switch off the chips on the shoulders) and we may discover the renaissance happening all around? Maybe we would realize that renaissance never went away? Nostalgia and learned nostalgia are amazing emotions. Back in the day everything was the best. They don't make 'em like that anymore. But it is also true that our society's originality in each and every aspect of life is definitely more conspicuous today. And it is compelling one and all to notice it. And when things get noticed...
zen Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 More or less what I'm referring to. Maybe I'm an culture illiterate but I dont know of anything meaningful that was produced with a 'We've got to create our own version of ....' mentality. You only have to look at early history of Bollywood .... People saw films made by others, learned about film-making, and decided to "create our own version of ...." Take United States for example, a nation that was created by the need "to create our own version of ...." Take cricket for example, years ago not many encouraged their kids to take up cricket as a profession, now parents do. It is this type of encouragement that I am talking about where you are given the confidence and encouragement to pursue other things besides getting a degree, develop and pursue your hobbies, express yourself fully There would be so many folks in India, who could have been great musicians, authors, painters, photographers (even 3 idiots had that theme where Madhavan wanted to be a photographer but his father wanted him to be an engineer) but what stalled their progress was a little bit of push and encouragement .... That's what I am asking for where we have a culture that encourages in these areas If you disagree, so be it .... Someone is writing about doing something positive for India, doing well in an area that it has not shone much .... what people like you want to do is not take the positive out what's being suggested but babble on irrelavant stuff. Shows where the problem lies :P
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