Is Ashwin the genuine all rounder we are looking for?

[Suhaan]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

If Imran can pick plenty of wickets per match on average in Asia at a healthy average, why can't Ashwin do the same in SENA?

But vampires(umpires) were the difference

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

If Imran can pick plenty of wickets per match on average in Asia at a healthy average, why can't Ashwin do the same in SENA?

try again

[BacktoCricaddict]

2 hours ago, Suhaan said:

But vampires(umpires) were the difference

 

Umpire Baatliwaala helped them the most:

 

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

If Imran can pick plenty of wickets per match on average in Asia at a healthy average, why can't Ashwin do the same in SENA?

 

There are many Asia pacers who have done well in Asia.

 

Almost everyone has better record at home than away.

[sensible-indian]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

What! He averages 13 in SENA with bat. But @sensible-indian says that he has won 4-5 test series away from home with bat 

Yes and I stand by it.

 

Every single word of it.

 

I said played a part.

 

He is a solid number 8 in SENA.

 

Not only do i know how to run statfilters, i also know how to accurately interpret the data.
 

[Cloud9]

Ashwin cult is very strong on all forums. 

[sensible-indian]

I just dont understand whats the argument about.

 

I think everyone pretty much agrees with everyone barring a few minor points here and there.

 

Take a step back and look at it and you will see there is barely any disagreement here.

 

Ashwin's Joberg, Centurion and Southampton fiasco will always be a black mark.

 

Unfortunately he was injured before Southampton and should never have played. Got split webbing before 2nd innings Centurion.

 

Thats life and it hurts Ashwins credentials.

 

But lets be honest..

 

If we apply the same logic to someone like Lyon...he has a mile long list of games where he went missing at crucial junctures.

 

Forget SENA....he had a 2 golden opportunties to pick up a couple of wickets and win the series for Aus in India. In 2017 and 2023.

 

And less said about his UAE performance..the better.

 

But overall with enough games...he has built a strong body of work and built up an incredible career.

 

This is what its about.

 

When it comes to Ashwin in SENA...

 

He either gets dropped

Or he gets injured

Or India is never in a position to win the game

 

It was a crime not to play him in Eng 2021 or WTC Finals 2023.

 

But then..it is what it is.

 

Thats life.

Edited September 24, 2024 by sensible-indian

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I just dont understand whats the argument about.

 

I think everyone pretty much agrees with everyone barring a few minor points here and there.

 

Take a step back and look at it and you will see there is barely any disagreement here.

 

Ashwin's Joberg, Centurion and Southampton fiasco will always be a black mark.

 

Unfortunately he was injured before Southampton and should never have played. Got split webbing before 2nd innings Centurion.

 

Thats life and it hurts Ashwins credentials.

 

But lets be honest..

 

If we apply the same logic to someone like Lyon...he has a mile long list of games where he went missing at crucial junctures.

 

Forget SENA....he had a 2 golden opportunties to pick up a couple of wickets and win the series for Aus in India.

 

And less said about his UAE performance..the better.

 

But overall with enough games...he has built a strong body of work and built uo an incredible career.

 

This is what its about.

 

Sadly for Ashwin.

 

When it comes to SENA...

 

He either gets dropped

Or he gets injured

Or India is never in a position to win the game

 

It was a crime not to play him in Eng 2021 or WTC 2023.

 

But then..it is what it is.

 

Thats life.

 

 

 

Ashwin might not have won matches on his own in SENA but he has done okay.Has he stunk in some matches , yes he has.

 

Murali and Warne never could win matches in India.Murali avg in Australia was 75.Kumble avg in almost every country other than India was high.

 

I disagree with you on one thing though.It was not crime to play him in 2021 or WTC 2023. It was the right decision.Spinners always playing supporting role in SENA and Jadeja being better batsman had to play over Ashwin.

 

 

 

 

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin might not have won matches on his own in SENA but he has done okay.Has he stunk in some matches , yes he has.

 

Murali and Warne never could win matches in India.Murali avg in Australia was 75.Kumble avg in almost every country other than India was high.

 

I disagree with you on one thing though.It was not crime to play him in 2021 or WTC 2023. It was the right decision.Spinners always playing supporting role in SENA and Jadeja being better batsman had to play over Ashwin.

 

 

 

 

3 pacers + Jaddu + Ashwin was my pick.

 

Covers all bases.

 

If its a Joberg style pitch (where game would get over fast), then Ashwin gets dropped.

 

Our team management saw a green pitch and forgot that test matches are played over 5 days and went with 4 pacers in the final.

 

Huge mistake.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

Umpire Baatliwaala helped them the most:

 

A cheat is a cheat only if he is caught.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, sensible-indian said:

Yes and I stand by it.

 

Every single word of it.

 

I said played a part.

 

He is a solid number 8 in SENA.

 

Not only do i know how to run statfilters, i also know how to accurately interpret the data.
 

The argument is simple and everyone knows that.

 

In Indian conditions, he is one of the greatest player to have played the game.

 

Outside India, you have top tier teams such as Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand and bottom tier teams such as Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. He has phenomenal record touring bottom tier nations but pretty mediocre touring all the other 4 teams. That's a chink in his CV and hence he can't be considered the greatest Indian cricketer of all-time.

 

Can he be considered an ATG cricketer? Perhaps yes because of that one series in Australia where he performed well but so did 5-6 other players and neither was he the standout performer.

 

An ATG bowler? Not yet. He has to improve in SENA.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Majestic

[putrevus]

15 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

3 pacers + Jaddu + Ashwin was my pick.

 

Covers all bases.

 

If its a Joberg style pitch (where game would get over fast), then Ashwin gets dropped.

 

Our team management saw a green pitch and forgot that test matches are played over 5 days and went with 4 pacers in the final.

 

Huge mistake.

No, Umesh picked 7 wickets in the win on the same ground in 2021.Thakur was needed for his batting.

 

Going with just two front line seamers was not going to happen on that green wicket.They just did not bowl well .Lyon took just one wicket in first innings also.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

There are many Asia pacers who have done well in Asia.

 

Almost everyone has better record at home than away.

Yes but posters over here feel Imran would average 35 if not for home umpiring advantage lol.

 

But in reality, he averages 25 away from home only so that's a misleading argument to begin with and obviously nothing to surprise if home record is better than away which is the case with Imran.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Majestic

[sensible-indian]

17 minutes ago, Majestic said:

The argument is simple and everyone knows that.

 

In Indian conditions, he is one of the greatest player to have played the game.

 

Outside India, you have top tier teams such as Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand and bottom tier teams such as Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. He has phenomenal record touring bottom tier nations but pretty mediocre touring all the other 4 teams. That's a chink in his CV and hence he can't be considered the greatest Indian cricketer of all-time.

 

Can he be considered an ATG cricketer? Perhaps yes because of that one series in Australia where he performed well but so did 5-6 other players and neither was he the standout performer.

 

An ATG bowler? Not yet. He has to improve in SENA.

I am not even getting into ATG debates.

 

I don't disagree with your overall point.

 

I wouldn't call him India's greatest Test cricketer (honestly each person would define it in a different way)...but defo India's greatest Test match winner.

 

Earlier it was Kumble. But now Ashwin has taken that spot.

Edited September 24, 2024 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No, Umesh picked 7 wickets in the win on the same ground in 2021.Thakur was needed for his batting.

 

Going with just two front line seamers was not going to happen on that green wicket.They just did not bowl well .Lyon took just one wicket in first innings also.

Had we thought the same way, we never would have won BGT 2020.

 

Its not about seeing a players performance. Its about the whole being greater than sum of parts.

 

Ashwin taking out Travis head - we would have won that test (Cos second innings, it started turning).

Ashwin had restricted Travis Head run flow - game would have slowed down and we could have made a comeback

 

We lost the WTC finals by the end of day 1.

 

There is a reason why star studded teams lose to teams that have all the bases covered.

[Cloud9]

7 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I am not even getting into ATG debates.

 

I don't disagree with your overall point.

 

I wouldn't call him India's greatest Test cricketer (honestly each person would define it in a different way)...but defo India's greatest Test match winner.

 

Earlier it was Kumble. But now Ashwin has taken that spot.

Nah that would be Chandrasekhar. 

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, Cloud9 said:

Nah that would be Chandrasekhar. 

Nah.

 

Better than Ashwin in SENA? Yes.

 

Bigger match winner (overall career)? No.

[Majestic]

10 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I am not even getting into ATG debates.

 

I don't disagree with your overall point.

 

I wouldn't call him India's greatest Test cricketer (honestly each person would define it in a different way)...but defo India's greatest Test match winner.

 

Earlier it was Kumble. But now Ashwin has taken that spot.

Some posters are doing it so I have the right to disagree to that and provide my reasoning (which I don't care if it turns into argument) for the same.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Had we thought the same way, we never would have won BGT 2020.

 

Its not about seeing a players performance. Its about the whole being greater than sum of parts.

 

Ashwin taking out Travis head - we would have won that test (Cos second innings, it started turning).

Ashwin had restricted Travis Head run flow - game would have slowed down and we could have made a comeback

 

We lost the WTC finals by the end of day 1.

 

There is a reason why star studded teams lose to teams that have all the bases covered.

But you are forgetting one point. You just cannot go with two fast bowlers in a test.Thakur was always a wild card.

 

You are assuming that Ashwin was going to handle Head on first day.

 

Hindsight is always nice but given what Ashwin did in England till now in his career, I don't think it was wrong call at all.

 

Two spinners was a overkill , India would be bowling spinners in first hour after winning the toss.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Majestic said:

Some posters are doing it so I have the right to disagree to that and provide my reasoning (which I don't care if it turns into argument) for the same.

I never objected to it.

 

If you see our interaction, I only raised objection to the way you downplayed the Sydney knock cos it wasn't focussed on winning and wasn't the main knock.

 

Cricket is not linear.

 

The nearer we are to the close of play..the harder it gets.

 

Considering the legendary attack we were up again..both his and Vihari was an incredible knock.

 

Heck, we still needed a ton of luck to survive them...but we did....for 43 overs....with the series hanging in balance.