Pioneer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Sorry but your argument just does not make sense. AFAIK Pakistan is also a third world country and you are saying that only the radicals in your country use Youtube and other popular websites and must have watched the videos. Sorry but your argument is baseless. Fact is that most in your country supported Salman Taseer killer and are hardliner radicals. In fact, your statements above show that Pakistanis are not only radicals but perhaps the biggest hypocrites on earth. I knew Jinnah was a big hypocrite as I pointed earlier and have always done but it seems Pakistanis followed perhaps this hypocrite trait to the most rather than following his somewhat moderate character. In fact, they seem to have excelled at hypocrisy a lot more than Jinnah did. By your own confessions and pointers above, most Pakistanis are extremely hypocrites who rather choose radicalism as per their own convenience. The Pakistanis and Pakistani army are ass-whipped by Taliban and Al Qaeda at many instances and so, it is but obvious that many of them would be against them. Same is the case with Malala where it is convenient to support her. But when there was time to support repealing of blasphemy law or criticizing Qadri then you conveniently became radicals as that is the actual character of Pakistan i.e. radicalism and extremism. Thanks for adding another point. Most Pakistanis are not only extremists and radicals but also some of the biggest hypocrites on earth. Way to put words in my mouth man. I never said that. I said that a possible reason to the "likes/dislikes" on the video were due to the fact that it the comments were from his supporters. Care to tell me how many comments or likes/dislkes you found ? Several hundred maybe ? That shows the majority of Pakistan are extremists ? Mind you I think your way of figuring out the mindset of a country is extremely foolish and I'm just trying to talk to you in your way of understanding. Seriously, you are spouting so much nonsense right now thats its hard to keep track, you are calling Pakistanis hypocrites but what about you? You choose to carefully ignore the aspects of Pakistani society that condemns extremism but highlight the part that does not. I am a Pakistani and I go to Pakistan frequently and I am telling you what I have seen/heard/interacted with on a first-hand basis, so all your " majority are extremists " comments have no value to me as you have no idea about the ground reality in Pakistan. About your comment on the Pakistani army being ass-whooped by the Taliban...I won't even bother answering that, and it just shows to me that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Educate yourself on what is going on instead of creating hypothesis in your head and spewing them as facts. I don't care if you have an opinion but don't present it to me as a fact.
Clarke Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 http://original.antiwar.com/eli-clifton/2010/07/30/poll-pakistanis-dislike-us-taliban-and-al-qaeda/ http://www.gallup.com/poll/126602/taliban-increasingly-unpopular-pakistan.aspx 2010, is that the year with most bloodshed in your history ? Or was it 2009 ? I don't disagree with the lack of support, it was a time your countrymen saw the carnage happen to their own. That's not the case with the earlier years when Indians/Westerners were being killed. Quite some of your countrymen must still believe 26/11 was an Indian conspiracy.
gangnam style Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Since alot of the people in the tribal areas could not afford to send their children to normal schools' date=' they sent them to madrassas and that is where the brain-washing began.[/quote'] Christine Fair, a South Asia expert at Georgetown University and one of the authors of the new paper, said there was no evidence for such sweeping assertions and that her study of 6,000 people suggested that poorer Pakistanis were actually less likely to support extremist groups than more affluent, better educated people. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Terrorism)/
ViruRulez Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 Way to put words in my mouth man. I never said that. I said that a possible reason to the "likes/dislikes" on the video were due to the fact that it the comments were from his supporters. Care to tell me how many comments or likes/dislkes you found ? Several hundred maybe ? That shows the majority of Pakistan are extremists ? Mind you I think your way of figuring out the mindset of a country is extremely foolish and I'm just trying to talk to you in your way of understanding. Seriously, you are spouting so much nonsense right now thats its hard to keep track, you are calling Pakistanis hypocrites but what about you? You choose to carefully ignore the aspects of Pakistani society that condemns extremism but highlight the part that does not. I am a Pakistani and I go to Pakistan frequently and I am telling you what I have seen/heard/interacted with on a first-hand basis, so all your " majority are extremists " comments have no value to me as you have no idea about the ground reality in Pakistan. About your comment on the Pakistani army being ass-whooped by the Taliban...I won't even bother answering that, and it just shows to me that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Educate yourself on what is going on instead of creating hypothesis in your head and spewing them as facts. I don't care if you have an opinion but don't present it to me as a fact. I told facts and it is just that truth hurts. OK. Let it make it more simpler for you and put the ball in your court. Show me any popular video or news article against the blasphemy law where Pakistanis in comments etc. have overwhelmingly supported the repeal of blasphemy law. Show me facts. And show me comments section and not the editors view only because I am asking for the bulk of people (anyways I have very less hope from the brainwashed uneducated radicals but at least the internet savvy educated should be proven to be somewhat non-extremist to prove your own point). Your point of the Taliban is just a human reaction to oppose anything which harms him/her/them. Your govt. in collusion with the US created your friends Taliban (that is another point to prove the wrong base Jinnah laid for Pakistan) by radicalizing people to fight Soviets. So, not liking the Taliban or Al Qaeda when they are fighting the Pakistani Army or bombing all your cities is not a sign of moderate behavior or opposition of radicalism or extremism. Every human does that by virtue of "reaction to stimuli". A true moderate would instead oppose govt. laws such as blasphemy laws which are biased and used to terrorize the minority and the less privileged. Prove me the support of Pakistanis overwhelmingly in the repeal of blasphemy law. It is pathetic that such a law which is pure extremism on extremely flimsy grounds exists in the first place and has never been removed. Not only the majority of your citizens are extremists and the whole country seems to support it but they seem to be even ready to kill any of your national cabinet ministers who even speaks against it. Not only Taseer but I suppose another Pakistani minister was killed a few weeks later who spoke against the law last year. The reason I called majority of Pakistanis hypocrites is also stated above and has been somewhat reiterated in the earlier part of this reply too. Selective extremism is even more dangerous and that is why I call hypocrites. Pakistan and US formed Taliban following the hardline religious base of Pakistan sown by Jinnah and enhanced by Zia. Then Pakistan trampled and played with Afghanistan and placed Taliban instead of freeing the country. Not only did you place the radical Taliban there but also gave them full authority and if I am not incorrect was one of the first countries to authenticate and give thumbs up to Taliban rule of Afghanistan for several decades destroying their whole nation and taking them back to the iron age. Talibans were moderates for you then and your Pakistani terrorists even used them for training and taking hostages etc. (eg. Indian plane hijack in the late 90s by Pakistani terrorists and then landed in Kandahar). Incidentally, the same terrorist who had to be freed in that hijack is now running a shadow organization Jamat-Ud-Dawa which also openly takes out processions and voices against any changes to the blasphemy law. You were all friends with the Talibans then and they were moderates for you all. But once they started bombing your cities and turned against your population, you suddenly woke up after a deep slumber of several decades and realized they are extremists. Kindly please do not BS. Speak logic and truth and back up with facts. Hypocrisy and extremism swells from the veins of most Pakistani people. But then what can be done when the founder of the nation itself was a massive hypocrite though I would still say that he was a lot liberal than 90% of Pakistanis today.
Pioneer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 I told facts and it is just that truth hurts. OK. Let it make it more simpler for you and put the ball in your court. Show me any popular video or news article against the blasphemy law where Pakistanis in comments etc. have overwhelmingly supported the repeal of blasphemy law. Show me facts. And show me comments section and not the editors view only because I am asking for the bulk of people (anyways I have very less hope from the brainwashed uneducated radicals but at least the internet savvy educated should be proven to be somewhat non-extremist to prove your own point). Your point of the Taliban is just a human reaction to oppose anything which harms him/her/them. Your govt. in collusion with the US created your friends Taliban (that is another point to prove the wrong base Jinnah laid for Pakistan) by radicalizing people to fight Soviets. So, not liking the Taliban or Al Qaeda when they are fighting the Pakistani Army or bombing all your cities is not a sign of moderate behavior or opposition of radicalism or extremism. Every human does that by virtue of "reaction to stimuli". A true moderate would instead oppose govt. laws such as blasphemy laws which are biased and used to terrorize the minority and the less privileged. Prove me the support of Pakistanis overwhelmingly in the repeal of blasphemy law. It is pathetic that such a law which is pure extremism on extremely flimsy grounds exists in the first place and has never been removed. Not only the majority of your citizens are extremists and the whole country seems to support it but they seem to be even ready to kill any of your national cabinet ministers who even speaks against it. Not only Taseer but I suppose another Pakistani minister was killed a few weeks later who spoke against the law last year. The reason I called majority of Pakistanis hypocrites is also stated above and has been somewhat reiterated in the earlier part of this reply too. Selective extremism is even more dangerous and that is why I call hypocrites. Pakistan and US formed Taliban following the hardline religious base of Pakistan sown by Jinnah and enhanced by Zia. Then Pakistan trampled and played with Afghanistan and placed Taliban instead of freeing the country. Not only did you place the radical Taliban there but also gave them full authority and if I am not incorrect was one of the first countries to authenticate and give thumbs up to Taliban rule of Afghanistan for several decades destroying their whole nation and taking them back to the iron age. Talibans were moderates for you then and your Pakistani terrorists even used them for training and taking hostages etc. (eg. Indian plane hijack in the late 90s by Pakistani terrorists and then landed in Kandahar). Incidentally, the same terrorist who had to be freed in that hijack is now running a shadow organization Jamat-Ud-Dawa which also openly takes out processions and voices against any changes to the blasphemy law. You were all friends with the Talibans then and they were moderates for you all. But once they started bombing your cities and turned against your population, you suddenly woke up after a deep slumber of several decades and realized they are extremists. Kindly please do not BS. Speak logic and truth and back up with facts. Hypocrisy and extremism swells from the veins of most Pakistani people. But then what can be done when the founder of the nation itself was a massive hypocrite though I would still say that he was a lot liberal than 90% of Pakistanis today. I know you said with regards to the blasphemy law, but heres something, you can check the comments section : http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/8238/does-mumtaz-qadri-deserve-to-die/
Pioneer Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 And don't get me wrong, there are alot of sick and disgusting people in Pakistan and I would love for them to burn along with their Talib brothers but to say that 90 % of a nation are extremists is just not right. That is all I am trying to defend. I'm not putting my head in the sand or whatever, I know theres a huge problem. I only hope that events like Malala's shooting will wake people up. " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."- Edmund Burke. The good men and women in Pakistan have been quiet for too long and the Mullahs have not. Just because the baddies make more of a noise doesn't mean the good guys aren't there.
ravishingravi Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Letter to Imran Khan When people say you are a breath of fresh air in the suffocating Pakistani political environment, I do not disagree. When people say you can smash the moth-eaten status quo in this country of ours, I do not disagree. When people say you can vanquish the demigods perched on our Mount Olympus and send them tumbling down, I do not disagree. You can do all this because you are sincere, honest and a doer. So then, Mr Khan, why are you sounding so stale the last few days? Yes, I’m talking about the horrifying attack on Malala Yousafzai and the equally horrifying reaction from your party rank and file. What is clear is that you are not clear on this issue. And your lack of clarity has led to massive confusion within your supporters. As a result, something very serious, very ominous, and very dangerously disappointing is happening. Brand Imran is under threat. Let me explain, sir. Condemning the cowardly attack on Malala is easy. That is why everyone - including the famously ambivalent maulanas and allamas - are also doing it. But condemning those who actually launched the attack suddenly complicates the situation. Now don’t get me wrong. I know you have spoken out against the attackers. So have the maulanas and allamas and their assorted sidekicks. No, that is not the issue. The actual issue is wrong contextualising of the situation. This requires clarity of thought borne of a strategic outlook. The moment you and your supporters say “we condemn the attack on Malala and also those who shot her, but…….”, the moment this “but” enters the rationale, the duplicity of thought, the ambiguity of intent, the ambivalence of attitude and the confusion, yes confusion of vision bubbles to the surface like a toxic pollutant. Why is that so bad? You ask. Are the lives of those killed by drones cheaper than Malala’s? Are they children of a lesser god? No they are not, Mr Khan. All lives are equally precious. But that is not the point. The drones versus Malala debate - that unfortunately your party leadership and its followers have triggered - is no debate. It is not an ‘either or’ issue. Both are wrong. So why this useless debate then? Here’s where, Mr Khan, I blame you. Why? Because you are the fountain from which your followers drink their political nectar. They parrot you (often nauseatingly on social media), they regurgitate your arguments and they peddle your logic. Your party leadership pushes your line on TV and defends your rationale on public forums. In the last week or so, they have fallen flat on their faces. The reason: your ideas are not fully fleshed out. Some call it intellectual dishonesty. I prefer to call it intellectual laziness. You cannot bring yourself to condemn the Pakistani Taliban like you condemn say, Asif Zardari or Nawaz Sharif. Fine. I do not have a problem as long as you have a certain credible logic for it, like you do for your attacks on Zardari and Sharif. But you don’t. Is it so because, a) Pakistani Taliban are our people, who are misguided and can be reformed? b) They have killed forty thousand other Pakistanis because we are fighting America’s war and so they do, err… kind of, have a point? c) If the drones would stop, they would stop attacking Malalas and Kainats and Shazias, and stop dynamiting girls’ schools and stop demanding their version of the Sharia for the entire Pakistani society? Or Mr Khan, is it what you have said in your Economist interview, that if you condemn them who will protect your party workers from them? The last one has left me at a loss of words. Are you saying, Mr Khan, that you will not condemn them, not out of conviction and power of logic, but because of – horror of horrors – fear? I can be fearful. Your supporters can be fearful. Even your detractors can be fearful. But none of us, Mr Khan, are claiming the leadership of this country; a bold and courageous leadership, I may add. I, Mr Khan, am the proud father of seven-year old twin daughters. When I look at Malala lying on that stretcher, and I visualise the faces of my daughters, my eyes well up. The pictures of little babies killed and injured by drone attacks bring a lump in my throat. They are all our children. Not one or the other, but all. I want a Pakistan where my daughters are respected for their education and the careers they choose. I want a Pakistan, Mr Khan, where my girls can have the same quality education that I was privileged with. And you were too. I want a Pakistan free of medieval shackles on thought and action; a Pakistan that flows with the global current of progress, not against it. If the Pakistani Taliban – who you want to negotiate with – have their way, my daughters and millions of other promising, talented daughters of ours, will not have this Pakistan. I know you and I want the same Pakistan. I will not doubt for a moment your intentions and your vision for a dynamic, forward-looking Pakistan. Which is why you need to realise that you are ending up contradicting yourself. So with utmost respect I say to you, sir: will the real Imran Khan please stand up. The drones are killing us, and the murderers are sitting thousands of miles away. And murderers who have killed forty thousand of our men, women and children; who have slit the throats of our soldiers and videotaped this barbarity, they are here, within our reach. You, Mr Khan, should vow to take both of them on with everything that you have. So be clear. Be categoric. Be honest. And be intellectually transparent. Just like you are with your energy policy, and your health and economic policy. And just like you are in your crusade against corruption. Make no mistake, sir. This fight against extremism is an existential one. Think it through. Your words matter. Your ideas matter. Your thoughts matter. People believe you. And they want to believe in you. Do not let them down like you have the past week. You say extremism will fade away once the Americans leave Afghanistan. How? Have you and your party leadership war-gamed the future scenario? Will Hakimullah Mehsud lay down his arms in 2014 and run for Parliament? Will he and his men renounce violence, retract all their claims about Sharia, invite the army and the political administration into North Waziristan and de-weaponise voluntarily? Do you really think so Mr Khan? And if you do, would you care to elaborate this line of thinking? You may ask, why am I addressing this to you and not the others. It’s actually pretty simple: I don’t have many expectations from others. The politico-religious leaders are a write-off when it comes to this issue. They are muddled, befuddled, Extremist-Lites. Pakistanis have seen through them. The other politicians sway with the wind and lack spine. They are the reason this country is where it is. The armed forces created these extremists in the first place, and perhaps they will now atone for their sins by going after them. But you, Mr Khan, claim to be the ‘Great Big Hope’. I, for one, hope that you are. God knows, we need hope. But hope is not a plan of action. Clear-headed thinking, leading to clear-headed action, is. Which is why, if you are confused, so are we. You have proved to us, with the World Cup victory, with the Shaukat Khanum hospital and with resilient politics, that you have a strong head and heart. Now, Mr Khan, prove to us this head and heart do not rest on feet of clay. http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-ne...-to-imran-khan
Lord Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 we need to win this one to shut the crap out of MI phaans. lolwut? wrong thread buddy:hysterical::hysterical:
Crookbond Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 we need to win this one to shut the crap out of MI phaans. :facepalm:
mhr123 Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 lolwut? wrong thread buddy:hysterical::hysterical: :facepalm: yup i realized it late.. i deleted my comments.. :cantstop:
someone Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 And don't get me wrong, there are alot of sick and disgusting people in Pakistan and I would love for them to burn along with their Talib brothers but to say that 90 % of a nation are extremists is just not right. That is all I am trying to defend. You are right to say that 90% of the nation are not extremists. But the point is 90% of the nation, listens + agrees + follows to those extremists. They might not be active terrorists but they are not against those extremists either. That's the real problem with the nation on how the wrong elements are still appreciated in some form.
Pioneer Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 You are right to say that 90% of the nation are not extremists. But the point is 90% of the nation' date=' listens + agrees + follows to those extremists. They might not be active terrorists but they are not against those extremists either. That's the real problem with the nation on how the wrong elements are still appreciated in some form.[/quote'] http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#/video/bestoftv/2012/10/15/sayah-pakistan-malala-rally.cnn
ViruRulez Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I know you said with regards to the blasphemy law, but heres something, you can check the comments section : http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/8238/does-mumtaz-qadri-deserve-to-die/ And don't get me wrong, there are alot of sick and disgusting people in Pakistan and I would love for them to burn along with their Talib brothers but to say that 90 % of a nation are extremists is just not right. That is all I am trying to defend. I'm not putting my head in the sand or whatever, I know theres a huge problem. I only hope that events like Malala's shooting will wake people up. " All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."- Edmund Burke. The good men and women in Pakistan have been quiet for too long and the Mullahs have not. Just because the baddies make more of a noise doesn't mean the good guys aren't there. Your last posts make a lot more sense. The thread you showed was not related to blasphemy law but only about Quadri that too ten months after Taseer's death and at a time when the blasphemy law issue had already died down and after the Pakistani govt. had bowed down before the extremists after violent protests and killing of two ministers in their cabinet. I would have been much happier if such an article was shown about the blasphemy law issue or when the issue was hot in the minds of the people. Anyways, I am not sure if it was a moderated comments section or not but still there were mixed reactions on his death sentence though it was better than all other such videos and articles I have seen till date. In fact, it was perhaps the only article/video of anything where comments were sane to some extent. Honestly, it is sad that you had to search hard to find a single article where something sensible was written and people supported it to an extent. And at the end of the day, the issue for which Taseer and Bhatti fought had to be backed down in the face of extremist resistance. So, both the lives went in vain. In that sense, I would agree with what someone said below. The problem is that even if most are radicals and extremists "deep inside their hearts". I had great respect for Imran Khan and felt that he might have been the positive change for Pakistan. Imran was an extreme liberal, just-thinking and ethical politician when he took his first plunge into politics. He used to say things right but in recent times, I have seen him giving speeches and bending towards the radicals and extremists a bit. He is still far better than most of your other politicians but he has changed. That is why I meant by base on which Pakistan was formed was wrong. Even an ethical and liberal person (many would have even called him extreme liberal by Pakistani standards during his cricketing career) like Imran had to gradually turn towards appeasing radicals and extremists. I still say he is far better than most but he has changed a lot in recent years and no one can doubt that. Hopefully, he is an ethical and liberal in reality and if he comes to power, he can change the base of Pakistan a bit towards humanity and ethical democracy. And I hope there are more people like you in Pakistan who are against extremism and supports liberal and free thinking. I am ending this discussion now and I hope to see a change. I came here for the kid Malala after I saw her videos and was very touched. Hope more such Malalas come out of your country in order to change your country for good. NOTE: I am also not saying everybody is bad. In fact, you can check another documentary on AZE where the AZE reporters were there inside interviewing the radicals when Lal Masjid in Islamabad was attacked by Musharraf when extremists made it their base. Outside too, the reporter met some people down the street who were against the radicals. So, there are people who are there. But they definitely seem to be numbered compared to the rest of population who are overwhelmingly extremist supporters.
Clarke Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Oh yea, very very peaceful crowd they got, especially since hit the fan. As long as the victim was the 1nf1dels, its ok/don't care/its justified. Look at the trends over the years; blatantly obvious what happened when the bombs started going off on their own turf. http://original.antiwar.com/eli-clifton/2010/07/30/poll-pakistanis-dislike-us-taliban-and-al-qaeda/ http://www.gallup.com/poll/126602/taliban-increasingly-unpopular-pakistan.aspx 2010, is that the year with most bloodshed in your history ? Or was it 2009 ? I don't disagree with the lack of support, it was a time your countrymen saw the carnage happen to their own. That's not the case with the earlier years when Indians/Westerners were being killed. Quite some of your countrymen must still believe 26/11 was an Indian conspiracy. To add to my earlier point, look at the awakening this incident has generated: http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/15/world/asia/pakistan-teen-activist-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 Did the blasphemy charges on the other disabled teenager inspire a response from the public ? Was that because she was different in some way ?
Pioneer Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 To add to my earlier point, look at the awakening this incident has generated: http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/15/world/asia/pakistan-teen-activist-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 Did the blasphemy charges on the other disabled teenager inspire a response from the public ? Was that because she was different in some way ? The difference in response could be due to several factors. Malala is a loud voice in Pakistan and has been championing for the rights of women for a while now so she was already a known figure in Pakistan therefore more people reacted to the shooting whereas Rimsha Masih ( the Christian girl ) was not known prior to the blasphemy case hence less people had a feeling of connection to her case. Secondly, the shooting of a girl at point blank range because of speaking for education would definitely stir your emotions more than a girl arrested for blasphemy charges, even though the latter is just as disgraceful. I am not condoning the disproportionate response at all , I am just trying to give possible reasons as to why this is the case.
Texy Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 Look at this <<<< Some Pakistanis are now blaming 'others' for this conspiracy as well as calling the little girl and her family CIA moles. Absolutely deplorable. That guy also claims this pic is the proof of cover up and she hasn't really been shot...it's a conspiracy One of the comments from the fb page: Mansoor Sajjad: Everyone said that this is Black water or other to start operation at waziristan this done with colaboration of Bloody INDIA
Pioneer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 ^^ I have read about people claiming this as well and it sickens me to the core. Though from what I see in Pakistan, these people are drowned out by those in support of Malala. I was on a facebook group page where someone suggested what you have shown and I will agree there were people who supported that poster. However, there were many, including myself, who highlighted how twisted this thinking was and we received a considerable amount of support. These are scary times in Pakistan, and the only thing we can do is to make ourselves heard. I really have had it and I fear if we do not rise now, then it will be too late. I make a humble request for all Indians to support the moderates in my country who know that India is not the threat, that the US is not the threat. I know that you as Indians do not have any obligation to help us Pakistanis, but the stability of my country is of utmost importance to the region so instead of attacking every Pakistani and clumping them together with the rest of the nutjobs, please know that this is a fight against extremism, not a fight against Pakistan.
punjabi_khota Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Malala is indeed getting quite a bit of support. Good to see that crazy conspiracy theorists are not the majority voice this time.
Pioneer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Thought I'd share this, found it quite powerful :
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