Why Tendulkar must retire now

[Muloghonto]

Agree' date=' Kallis is way >> Sachin.[/quote'] Kallis is greater than Tendy in the same way Sobers is greater than Tendy/Bradman. On purely batsmanship, Tendy is way ahead of Kallis. As a cricketer in whole, Kallis obviously better.

[Deleted_User_1]

Ok let's not get carried away with the hate here (I am guilty too)! SRT is a modern day genius. If he had retired on top after WC 2011 when he had resurrected his career from 2006 and had a great WC, I would have had a easier time saying that he is the best modern day batsman as a whole given his records, knocks, technique and longevity. But these two years have SEVERELY tarnished that reputation. 2 years is a LONG time and now after getting fecked by every tom, dick and harry bowler he is just ONE of the modern day greats and clearly not above the rest.

[harmuk]

Err, Ponting got like what 4-5 chances in Wc finals before he succeded in one, where he came in after the bowler were pulverized and the score was over 100 in 10 overs? Yet that innings is considered as the prime example of a wc innings As for Jordan, let me know in which game he started with a handicap of -360 points (like Sachin started with having to chase that score in the world cup final) BTW, love to see tghe fact that all of a sudden its an ODI cup which decides the greatness of a cricketer. So how many world cups did the Don win?

Dude, Give it up already, your Sachin is no Jordan all the if's and but's notwithstanding. Jordan is too big a winner for Sachin to even be brought up in the same discussion. Keeping that aside even within Indian cricket there were players who have performed much better in a tougher spot and contributed in memorable wins (Kolkata 2001 win is one such example) than Sachin despite playing many number of games less. Don't tell me in 23 years of playing international cricket there was a not a situation where he could not have pulled off a VVS 2001, Kolkata or RD Jamaica, 2006. He did not. That is a fact. He simply is not better than VVS or a RD in tough situations no matter how many if's and but's his hardcore fanboys come up with, so bringing him up with the likes of Jordan in the same sentence, is blasphemy. There I said it.

[harmuk]

On purely batsmanship' date=' Tendy is[b'] way ahead of Kallis.

No he is not, way ahead. Things just do not add up.

[vvvslaxman]

Ok let's not get carried away with the hate here (I am guilty too)! SRT is a modern day genius. If he had retired on top after WC 2011 when he had resurrected his career from 2006 and had a great WC' date=' I would have had a easier time saying that he is the best modern day batsman as a whole given his records, knocks, technique and longevity. But these two years have SEVERELY tarnished that reputation. 2 years is a LONG time and now after getting fecked by every tom, dick and harry bowler he is just of the modern day greats and clearly not above the rest.[/quote'] He is a great batsman with loads of skills with near perfect technique. Bhakts can add more adjestives as well. :cantstop: . But nobody cannot refute he has joined the elite list of "people who don't know when to quit". That is the sad scenario. It is not just for team's benefit. It is also to protect his own legacy. Dravid realized that in Australia quit immediately without hurting us much. If he had decided he could have gone on for some more time.

[Texan]

He is a great batsman with loads of skills with near perfect technique. Bhakts can add more adjestives as well. :cantstop: . But nobody cannot refute he has joined the elite list of "people who don't know when to quit". That is the sad scenario. It is not just for team's benefit. It is also to protect his own legacy. Dravid realized that in Australia quit immediately without hurting us much. If he had decided he could have gone on for some more time.

Exactly. Dravid and Laxman would have made minced meat out of this "pedru" Aussie bowling line-up. I'm sure if they were still playing, they could have easily added 100s to their records and got their averages even higher. They picked the right time selflessly to retire. They knew that there were a number of home tests lined up and that would have made it much easier for their replacements to get used to Test cricket rather than throw them in the middle on a tough away tour. Tendulkar, despite being a great batsman that he is and despite having thousands of devotees (yes, I call them devotees not fans because they see no rhyme or reason, they're just blind followers), decided - wow, home tests, great chance to cash in on some more records!

[Texan]

So a league game where it is 'must win to advance' is not a knockout game ? Tell me how did Tendy face more pressure in 2003 finals than Anwar in the 2003 Ind v Pak league game. In the finals, if India loses, we lose the world cup, in the group match, if Pak lost (which they did), they lose the world cup. So how is it 'less pressure' just because it is a league game ? When you look at 2 matches from a sample of 400+, that is 0.5% of the sample space and completely irrelevant to drawing any sort of a conclusion. As i said, if you are to go by 'must win to progress/stay alive' in a world cup, which is the definition of a clutch game, Tendy is as good as it gets. Ever. Sure, he didn't deliver in the more glamourous of those must win situations, but he contributed plenty of times in the must win scenarios of world cups, which makes him one of the best clutch batsmen in ODIs.

Would you still give this same explanation for why South Africa chokes in crucial matches? Performing in a high-pressure game is very different from a regular game. South African teams have not been able to handle them despite having all the skill in the world. Sachin belongs to the same category.

[Number]

Performing in a high-pressure game is very different from a regular game. South African teams have not been able to handle them despite having all the skill in the world. Sachin belongs to the same category.

He has done well in SFs and quite well in Quarters of world cup. His avg in tournament finals is 55, 10 more than his overall avg of 45 (which itself is towering). Also while chasing in tournament finals his avg is even better. OK he is not retiring but don't think there is any need of badmouthing his past achievements.

[vamos_rafa]

He has done well in SFs and quite well in Quarters of world cup. His avg in tournament finals is 55, 10 more than his overall avg of 45 (which itself is towering). Also while chasing in tournament finals his avg is even better. OK he is not retiring but don't think there is any need of badmouthing his past achievements.

This!

[The Outsider]

Let's wait and see when Kallis hangs up his boots where he lands in the list. At the moment he's close to the top.

What happens between now and Kallis' retirement is going to have no effect on his stature as a batsman. The bulk of Kallis' career is over, perhaps 90%. We have all seen what is there to see. The fact that Richards was ordinary for the last 3-4 years of his career makes no difference to the ones who are not involved with number crunching obsessively. Most people don't give a frack about those last few years of Richards because of his sustained peak and record for the remaining years. The same way most people will never give a frack about Kallis adding a few centuries to his stats or for that matter even Tendulkar. Tendulkar's greatness was written in the 90s when he was clearly the best batsman, maybe a case can be made for Lara, in a decade where run scoring was a more difficult proposition and the stature of the bowlers was greater. Kallis' stature has been written by his performances when no one in his right mind would say he was the best or even the second best batsman for a sustained period. Ponting, Lara, Sangakkara, Dravid, Chanderpaul, Tendulkar, even Yousuf bhai and Inzi bhai have performed pretty much at the same level. Kallis hasn't even been the best batsman in his team since Amla's comeback.

Favre similar to Inzi Bhai? Really??? Your arguments are getting more ridiculous by the post. If Favre's the "28th best player" as you claim, pray tell me howz Inzi the "28th best cricketer"? Either the comparison is QB vs Batsmen in which case both Favre and Tendulkar are in the same ballpark, or it should be between "Favre as NFL player" vs "Tendulkar as cricketer". You know something which is not apples and oranges as you can't take Favre's rank as a NFL player and compare it to Tendulkar's rank as a batsman.

I am sure a case can been made for Inzi and Javed bhai to be among the 30s and 40s rank of cricketers, pretty similar to Favre.

If we start listing the top cricketers do you know where Tendulkar will end up? Forget Bradman, Hobbs, Sobers, Kallis, Hutton etc. which I listed earlier, folks like Warne, Murali, WI pace battery especially Marshall & Ambrose, Gilchrist, McGrath will also will come into contention. You see "Top cricketers" will also have bowlers and wks in the list not just batsmen. And yeah Tendulkar will not be next in line after Bradman as you are making it out to be and will slip as well.

No matter how many handicaps you give to others, it's impossible to push Tendulkar out of the top 10 cricketers of all time. And that is why he features in almost all all time XIs drawn up by experts and former players. For a few he would be the third name on the list after Bradman and Sobers, for a few they might choose to pen down Warne and Gilchrist as well before him, and a few more might also put Marshall and Hobbs before him, but the fact remains that he is a regular all time XI selection across people from various countries, ages, and knowledge of cricket. That is a clear indication that he is on a different level than Favre.

[The Outsider]

But cricket is not just about batting and you talk about a cricketer as a whole package when you give players rankings. So certainly Kallis one of the top cricketer of all time. Kallis is SRT and Zaheer combined' date= though not as dominant as SRT once was but as reliable, not as regular as Zak in terms of bowling, but as effective.

Bullcrap. Just because such a stat was shown in one of the test matches by a TV channel does not mean there is any logic or sense to it. If you can select 4 fast bowlers in your all time XI, who would you select? Imran, Hadlee, Miller, Pollock? Or Hadlee, Marshall, McGrath, and Steyn? The first group is slightly worse than the second in terms of bowling ability but are much better batsmen. And yet when all time XIs are drawn up preference is given to the primary skill even if it's not significantly better. All rounders are used to balance the side and 1-2 might be picked. Of course, Sobers and Hadlee were so good in batting and bowling respectively that their all round skill is not even considered. They can arguably make a case of being the best of their era. Kallis would struggle to make the top 5 batsmen of his era forget about being the best.

[Number]

Bullcrap. Just because such a stat was shown in one of the test matches by a TV channel does not mean there is any logic or sense to it. If you can select 4 fast bowlers in your all time XI, who would you select? Imran, Hadlee, Miller, Pollock? Or Hadlee, Marshall, McGrath, and Steyn? The first group is slightly worse than the second in terms of bowling ability but are much better batsmen. And yet when all time XIs are drawn up preference is given to the primary skill even if it's not significantly better. All rounders are used to balance the side and 1-2 might be picked. Of course, Sobers and Hadlee were so good in batting and bowling respectively that their all round skill is not even considered. They can arguably make a case of being the best of their era. Kallis would struggle to make the top 5 batsmen of his era forget about being the best.

As a batsman Lara and Sachin are a class above the rest. In the 2nd league it will be Ponting > Kallis > Dravid. So Kallis is definitely among top 5 batsmen of his generation. Will Imran or Headlee be in the top 5 bowlers of their era ?

[Lurker]

As a batsman Lara and Sachin are a class above the rest. In the 2nd league it will be Ponting > Kallis > Dravid. So Kallis is definitely among top 5 batsmen of his generation. Will Imran or Headlee be in the top 5 bowlers of their era ?

Yes. Hadlee would go neck and neck with Marshall as the very best of his time with Imran a very close 2nd.

[harmuk]

As a batsman Lara and Sachin are a class above the rest. In the 2nd league it will be Ponting > Kallis > Dravid. So Kallis is definitely among top 5 batsmen of his generation.

Based on what are Lara and Sachin are a class above the rest? Is it based on hype and what certain ex-greats might have casually mentioned about these two. This is exactly where the subjectivity comes in. Certainly when people consider all things in Tests, Chanders will be rated at a minimum equal or even higher than Lara when it comes to value as a batsman for his team and similarly RD and VVS for India. There is no such thing as 2nd league, in which Ponting or Kallis or Dravid will fall in. It is all a load of BS.

[rkt.india]

There is a general question. Who is better Jessie Owens or Usain Bolt?

[BeautifulGame]

Based on what are Lara and Sachin are a class above the rest? Is it based on hype and what certain ex-greats might have casually mentioned about these two. This is exactly where the subjectivity comes in. Certainly when people consider all things in Tests, Chanders will be rated at a minimum equal or even higher than Lara when it comes to value as a batsman for his team and similarly RD and VVS for India. There is no such thing as 2nd league, in which Ponting or Kallis or Dravid will fall in. It is all a load of BS.

Based on the fact both Lara and Sachin averaged above 50 in 90 in an era when almost every team had 2 all time greats (or atleast their best ever) at their best. Only one of the similar caliber of current generation is Steyn How many ATG bowlers did Chanderpaul or Dravid had to face in their career? And then there is the wickets which were bowler friendly unlike the flat wkts. Dravid had poor records in 2 countries (SA and Srl ) which had ATG bowlers and his record Aus when Mcgrath was pretty bad too.This isnt a slur on Dravid just a example of the gulf in class btw Dravid and Sachin at their peak.

[Sooda]

Ok let's not get carried away with the hate here (I am guilty too)! SRT is a modern day genius. If he had retired on top after WC 2011 when he had resurrected his career from 2006 and had a great WC' date=' I would have had a easier time saying that he is the best modern day batsman as a whole given his records, knocks, technique and longevity. But these two years have SEVERELY tarnished that reputation. 2 years is a LONG time and now after getting fecked by every tom, dick and harry bowler he is just ONE of the modern day greats and clearly not above the rest.[/quote'] I dont agree with that. As Outsider has pointed out, his greatness is based on what he achieved in the 90's in a rubbish team against bowlers who were all time greats. Not based on what he is doing now approaching 40 up against guys who are not even close to the kinds of bowlers he was facing in his hey day. Which is not to say that he he should not step down- of course he should and should have done so as you say after the WC. There are kinda parralels in Schumachers return to F1, Borg coming out of retirement to play tennis. They were rubbish, but when history looks back upon Schumi as it does with Borg- no one is going to care about those minor blips. Id suggest it is safe to wager that anyone arguing Kallis and Dravid are in Lara or Sachins class as batsmen are in their late teens or early to mid 20's. Having not really seen enough of Sachin or Lara in the 90's to understand how great they were

[Number]

Based on the fact both Lara and Sachin averaged above 50 in 90 in an era when almost every team had 2 all time greats (or atleast their best ever) at their best. Only one of the similar caliber of current generation is Steyn How many ATG bowlers did Chanderpaul or Dravid had to face in their career? And then there is the wickets which were bowler friendly unlike the flat wkts. Dravid had poor records in 2 countries (SA and Srl ) which had ATG bowlers and his record Aus when Mcgrath was pretty bad too.This isnt a slur on Dravid just a example of the gulf in class btw Dravid and Sachin at their peak.

I dont agree with that. As Outsider has pointed out, his greatness is based on what he achieved in the 90's in a rubbish team against bowlers who were all time greats. Not based on what he is doing now approaching 40 up against guys who are not even close to the kinds of bowlers he was facing in his hey day. Which is not to say that he he should not step down- of course he should and should have done so as you say after the WC. There are kinda parralels in Schumachers return to F1, Borg coming out of retirement to play tennis. They were rubbish, but when history looks back upon Schumi as it does with Borg- no one is going to care about those minor blips. Id suggest it is safe to wager that anyone arguing Kallis and Dravid are in Lara or Sachins class as batsmen are in their late teens or early to mid 20's. Having not really seen enough of Sachin or Lara in the 90's to understand how great they were

All this. :two_thumbs_up:

[Sooda]

There is a general question. Who is better Jessie Owens or Usain Bolt?

Irrelevant surely?! Its not a Bradman vs Tendulkar debate.

[Lurker]

I dont agree with that. As Outsider has pointed out' date= his greatness is based on what he achieved in the 90's in a rubbish team against bowlers who were all time greats. Not based on what he is doing now approaching 40 up against guys who are not even close to the kinds of bowlers he was facing in his hey day. Which is not to say that he he should not step down- of course he should and should have done so as you say after the WC.

Well then Outsider is wrong, and so are you. Can we STOP saying how cra@ppy India was in 90s? Our record at home is probably the best within this timeframe (something most modern day Indian cricket fans seem to talk about these days - why winning at home is not counted). But the larger point is Indian team was not amongst the top 3 because the top 3 were freaking good. Pakistan had a bowling attack that read Wasim-Waqar-Saqlain and they were not number 1 (or even 2). Go figure!! West Indies were on their last leg and yet in Ambrose and Walsh they had an attack who would take 20 wickets on any pitch on any country. And Australia had become stronger every day post Border, then Taylor and finally Waugh. India was behind all these countries but Dravid debuted in 90s, Sachin was there all along and Azhar, that original champion batsman after Sunny, was still belting bowlers like only an Indian batsman can, exotic and stylish. Lets not go overboard just to celebrate Sachin.:headshake: