Dhoni - Greatest Indian captain

[jalebi_bhai]

:cantstop: where did he come from. Also.. Parthiv patel was persisted with by Ganguly.. Let us not forget he had the services of Anil Kumble.. a world class spinner. With Srinath and Zaheer our bowling was never berated like our bowling is being berated now.

I meant Rohan Gavaskar.....:giggle: He persisted with Pappu cause he bizarrely had no other alternative at the time. Srinath was great......but Zaheer was very raw at the time.....wasn't even half the bowler he would eventually become in his prime..... I'm not belittling Dhoni or his achievements.....I'm just saying that I personally feel Ganguly's impact was greater and the changes under his reign were eventually crucial in what Dhoni has gone on to achieve......

[someone]

Still Ganguly for me......he may have over-stayed his time in the Tamaasha League.....

Wrong. Firstly, the talent pool itself is very debatable and actually I would say that majority would say Ganguly had better players set. And then Ganguly was one selfish player. He was part of starter of the whole senior junior thing. Chappell might not have been great, but at least he understood the problem and tried his best to change that. And then the bitter nature of Ganguly came very well know and his power-centric attitude. Under his leadership, we failed everytime when there was pressure given how many finals we lost and not to forget, Ganguly was never a match winner as in Dhoni category. Captains also have to the main match winners of the team.

[gattaca]

Wrong. Firstly, the talent pool itself is very debatable and actually I would say that majority would say Ganguly had better players set. And then Ganguly was one selfish player. He was part of starter of the whole senior junior thing. Chappell might not have been great, but at least he understood the problem and tried his best to change that. And then the bitter nature of Ganguly came very well know. Under his leadership, we failed in everytime when there was pressure given how many finals we lost and not to forget, Ganguly was never a match winner as in Dhoni category. Captains also have to the main match winners of the team.

True.I like lot of things about ganguly but i hate him for the runout of VVS in Zimbabwe.

[Muloghonto]

Dhoni is clearly the best limited overs captain we've had. Ganguly, in my time is clearly the best Test format captain ( people older than me say Pataudi or Wadekar were the best but I've not seen them). As for Ganguly not being a matchwinner...:haha::haha::haha: For most of his career (read: prior to 2005 or so) he was toe-to-toe with Goddy for being our go-to batsman, matchwinner and one of the top 5 ODI bats of the decade. Man also had a golden arm, where he took key middle over wickets with his wobblers. IIRC, he is still the *only* opener in ODI cricket to've averaged 40+ against South Africa ( 50.50 actually). We don't have to sell Dada short to glorify Dhoni. IMO, Dhoni is a better manager of a younger team but Ganguly was slightly better in managing the titans of the team (who come with titanic sized egos) and IMO, was a better tactician in the longer formats. Dhoni has a better 'nose' for the occasion in limited over cricket and frequently pulls rabbits out of his hat.

[vvvslaxman]

I meant Rohan Gavaskar.....:giggle: He persisted with Pappu cause he bizarrely had no other alternative at the time. Srinath was great......but Zaheer was very raw at the time.....wasn't even half the bowler he would eventually become in his prime..... I'm not belittling Dhoni or his achievements.....I'm just saying that I personally feel Ganguly's impact was greater and the changes under his reign were eventually crucial in what Dhoni has gone on to achieve......

Strategywise not much to seperate them. Both can go ultra defensive. Especially how Ganguly squandered series leads quiet a few times.. i was bewildered. He focused on draw from the get go and we would end up losing the test. The only good thing did was he had this in your face approach. He was able to get the players toe his line whether they like it or not. Remember the tiff he had with Srinath on the field in West Indies. He did lose his cool more than once with his players. Worst part was his form took a nose dive once he became a captain. It started declining rapidly.. with occasional 100 or 50. The match where i lost patience was this match. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64939.html India was going smoothly.. Once Viru got out. we didn't expect Ganguly to walk in. He completely halted the momentum. just because he wanted some batting practice. He kinda lost respect from so many fans in this match. He definitely had his moments. Some Amazing individual performances came under him. though we don't know how much he was the reason behind Laxman's 281 or Bhajji's 32 wicket haul or Viru's 309. At test level probably Ganguly has a slight edge.though neutralized by some bizzarre onfield tactics. I remember Bangalore test match against Pakistan. Pakistan had to score quicly to set a decent 4th innings target... Ganguly went on the defensive directly. He was letting his bowlers bowl negtaively on the pad.. Younis Khan really punished us badly.

[Bumper]

Dhoni is tactically very shrewd. His tactical nous coupled with his on-field performance definitely helps him lead the side well in limited overs cricket. Dhoni knows that he has limited bowling resources and knows how to get the best out of them in the shorter forms of the game. He also knows how to build a team (he has done it a few times now - once when he won the T20 world cup, once in 2008 when he won the CB series and now) and turn them into winners. All this makes him one of the greatest limited overs captains ever. However in the longer form, the quality of the team almost always trumps a captain's tactics. You can't hide a cr@p team for 5 days in the field. Plus the fact that Dhoni himself does not quite have the game for tests means he is out of ideas when the game drifts away. He can't quite apply pressure on the opponents the way he would in the shorter formats. The 0-8 defeat is certainly one of the lowest in our history and Dhoni as captain deserves his share of the blame, however to crucify him alone for that debacle is missing the point. The real issue for us was our ageing & out of form batsmen and an ordinary bowling attack that cannot quite stage a fightback with smallish totals. So i see the 0-8 defeat as a big blot in his captaincy CV, sure, but it does not, for me, undo all his good work as a captain.

[Gambit]

In limited overs, he will rank amongst the best of all time, let alone India. In test cricket however, he will be at best, as of now, among top 3 Indian captains.

[gattaca]

Strategywise not much to seperate them. Both can go ultra defensive. Especially how Ganguly squandered series leads quiet a few times.. i was bewildered. He focused on draw from the get go and we would end up losing the test. The only good thing did was he had this in your face approach. He was able to get the players toe his line whether they like it or not. Remember the tiff he had with Srinath on the field in West Indies. He did lose his cool more than once with his players. Worst part was his form took a nose dive once he became a captain. It started declining rapidly.. with occasional 100 or 50. The match where i lost patience was this match. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64939.html India was going smoothly.. Once Viru got out. we didn't expect Ganguly to walk in. He completely halted the momentum. just because he wanted some batting practice. He kinda lost respect from so many fans in this match. He definitely had his moments. Some Amazing individual performances came under him. though we don't know how much he was the reason behind Laxman's 281 or Bhajji's 32 wicket haul or Viru's 309. At test level probably Ganguly has a slight edge.though neutralized by some bizzarre onfield tactics. I remember Bangalore test match against Pakistan. Pakistan had to score quicly to set a decent 4th innings target... Ganguly went on the defensive directly. He was letting his bowlers bowl negtaively on the pad.. Younis Khan really punished us badly.

Its not only this. 356/4 Laxman, 140, run out by Streak after an appalling mix-up - called for a quick single but Ganguly stayed put, caught a long way short of his crease. I think this is the match after which he the problems between him and greg chappel came out open. http://www.espncricinfo.com/zimvind/content/story/219325.html

[Precambrian]

Without a doubt. Showed with a bunch of youngsters that his previous trophy wins were not fluke.

[jalebi_bhai]

Wrong. Firstly' date=' the talent pool itself is very debatable and actually I would say that majority would say Ganguly had better players set.[/quote'] Umm....so you're implying that a talent pool of Badani, R. Gavaskar, Bangar, Chopra, Pappu, Ratra, Bahutule, Sarandeep Singh > Raina, Dhawan, Jadeja, Kohli, Mooli, Ashwin, Bhuvi, Yadav......???

[someone]

Dhoni is clearly the best limited overs captain we've had. Ganguly, in my time is clearly the best Test format captain ( people older than me say Pataudi or Wadekar were the best but I've not seen them). As for Ganguly not being a matchwinner...:haha::haha::haha: For most of his career (read: prior to 2005 or so) he was toe-to-toe with Goddy for being our go-to batsman, matchwinner and one of the top 5 ODI bats of the decade. Man also had a golden arm, where he took key middle over wickets with his wobblers. IIRC, he is still the *only* opener in ODI cricket to've averaged 40+ against South Africa ( 50.50 actually). We don't have to sell Dada short to glorify Dhoni. IMO, Dhoni is a better manager of a younger team but Ganguly was slightly better in managing the titans of the team (who come with titanic sized egos) and IMO, was a better tactician in the longer formats. Dhoni has a better 'nose' for the occasion in limited over cricket and frequently pulls rabbits out of his hat.

Lol, firstly, read what was stated. The level is different between those 2 players for match winning where Dhoni stands out more. And how is Ganguly the better captain in Tests? Even today, Dhoni has more wins and less losses than Ganguly when compared. And not to forget Ganguly captained 10 tests against teams like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, that skewed his record. If we remove those easy wins, Ganguly has been very poor. He created the Ego team, remember? He was the biggest egoistic person in the team and is still bitter about a lot of things. The culture of our team is a lot better under Dhoni where also less politics is played out compared to Ganguly.

[Muloghonto]

Lol' date=' firstly, read what was stated. The level is different between those 2 players for match winning where Dhoni stands out more. [b']And how is Ganguly the better captain in Tests? Even today, Dhoni has more wins and less losses than Ganguly when compared. And not to forget Ganguly captained 10 tests against teams like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, that skewed his record. If we remove those easy wins, Ganguly has been very poor. He created the Ego team, remember? He was the biggest egoistic person in the team and is still bitter about a lot of things. The culture of our team is a lot better under Dhoni where also less politics is played out compared to Ganguly.

If you wish to talk about who is the better captain on the basis of records, then I have no time for you. You could be twice the captain Dhoni is and still have half his stats if you happened to captain around 1996-2007 period of Aussie-Saffers dominance or happened to run into West Indies between 1975 and 1993 or so. I think Ranatunga was the best on-field captain from the subcontinent but his win-loss record probably isn't anywhere close to being the best either. And anyone who's played or captained a side in cricket will tell you that Mark Taylor was easily better captain than Steve Waugh, who was easily better captain than Ponting, despite Mark having the worst record of the three and Ponting the best. So I have no time for talking about who is the better captain or not on basis of stats. Take those stats and toss em away because win-loss is 95% determined by the team and the opposition, 5% by the captain. Ganguly was the better test captain because he was not permanently stuck in neutral gear in tests. He knew when to put pressure and when to go for the contain option. Dhoni captains tests like he captains ODIs- you cream two fours through the covers and he will move 3rd slip to covers, nevermind that its Zaheer Khan pitching it up, TRYING to get the batsmen to drive so he can induce an edge. Dhoni does not back aggressive tactics in tests nearly half as much as Ganguly did with the team fielding, this is one glaring deficiency in Dhoni's captaincy. In tests, you have to stick to the plan. If the plan is to get the batsman to drive against outswingers to induce catches for the slips, you gotto stick to it for atleast 5-10 overs. If the plan is to get the batsmen to swipe against the spin, then you gotto stick with it. Not move the attacking fielder out to block runs. That is how you do it in tests. What dhoni does, is apply ODI tactics X5 days in a test match. Not impressive tactician.

[jalebi_bhai]

Strategywise not much to seperate them. Both can go ultra defensive. Especially how Ganguly squandered series leads quiet a few times.. i was bewildered. He focused on draw from the get go and we would end up losing the test. The only good thing did was he had this in your face approach. He was able to get the players toe his line whether they like it or not. Remember the tiff he had with Srinath on the field in West Indies. He did lose his cool more than once with his players. Worst part was his form took a nose dive once he became a captain. It started declining rapidly.. with occasional 100 or 50. The match where i lost patience was this match. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64939.html India was going smoothly.. Once Viru got out. we didn't expect Ganguly to walk in. He completely halted the momentum. just because he wanted some batting practice. He kinda lost respect from so many fans in this match. He definitely had his moments. Some Amazing individual performances came under him. though we don't know how much he was the reason behind Laxman's 281 or Bhajji's 32 wicket haul or Viru's 309. At test level probably Ganguly has a slight edge.though neutralized by some bizzarre onfield tactics. I remember Bangalore test match against Pakistan. Pakistan had to score quicly to set a decent 4th innings target... Ganguly went on the defensive directly. He was letting his bowlers bowl negtaively on the pad.. Younis Khan really punished us badly.

His form did dip during his captaincy, fair enough.....I think a lot of these instances (except the srinath one) you've mentioned were around 2004-5......when he kinda started losing the plot.......still......his reign was what set the wheels in motion for our current dominance.......that is why I rate him slightly higher than Dhoni.....

[Rocky Balboa]

Greatest captain of subcontinent. Surpassing imran by a long margin...

[someone]

Umm....so you're implying that a talent pool of Badani, R. Gavaskar, Bangar, Chopra, Pappu, Ratra, Bahutule, Sarandeep Singh > Raina, Dhawan, Jadeja, Kohli, Mooli, Ashwin, Bhuvi, Yadav......??? It was only under Ganguly that we actually started to consistently make finals.........we failed a lot of times ......but we showed others that we were no pushovers.....except in finals :giggle:.....also, you can't entirely blame Ganguly for others losing their nerve in finals...... Regarding Chappell, the guy was a moron....end of. He thought he understood all the nuances of Indian culture in 3 months of having lived in the country. He is a great scout of talent....but his man-management skills were non-existent. He wanted Sachin out for ffs. There is a reason why even CA don't want to touch him with a barge pole........the man doesn't understand subtlety.....

So you are comparing today's first team players with old times bench players. Great thinking there.:giggle: Try comparing 2003 WC team and today's team, that team would be superior. And then playing tri series and being in the final is not the biggest thing to boast about. We lost many finals and pressure always won with Ganguly captaincy. Chappel may or may not have been moron but he had the right intentions. I am sure about that and even the 2011 WC team had admitted that Chappel deserves some credit. And today, when I look back at the Ganguly vs Chappel incident, it's Ganguly who looks poor as he shown what a bitter, hopeless, selfish person he is and how much he loves elite power

[Sachin=GOD]

this thread has potential

[jalebi_bhai]

If you wish to talk about who is the better captain on the basis of records, then I have no time for you. You could be twice the captain Dhoni is and still have half his stats if you happened to captain around 1996-2007 period of Aussie-Saffers dominance or happened to run into West Indies between 1975 and 1993 or so. I think Ranatunga was the best on-field captain from the subcontinent but his win-loss record probably isn't anywhere close to being the best either. And anyone who's played or captained a side in cricket will tell you that Mark Taylor was easily better captain than Steve Waugh, who was easily better captain than Ponting, despite Mark having the worst record of the three and Ponting the best. So I have no time for talking about who is the better captain or not on basis of stats. Take those stats and toss em away because win-loss is 95% determined by the team and the opposition, 5% by the captain. Ganguly was the better test captain because he was not permanently stuck in neutral gear in tests. He knew when to put pressure and when to go for the contain option. Dhoni captains tests like he captains ODIs- you cream two fours through the covers and he will move 3rd slip to covers, nevermind that its Zaheer Khan pitching it up, TRYING to get the batsmen to drive so he can induce an edge. Dhoni does not back aggressive tactics in tests nearly half as much as Ganguly did with the team fielding, this is one glaring deficiency in Dhoni's captaincy. In tests, you have to stick to the plan. If the plan is to get the batsman to drive against outswingers to induce catches for the slips, you gotto stick to it for atleast 5-10 overs. If the plan is to get the batsmen to swipe against the spin, then you gotto stick with it. Not move the attacking fielder out to block runs. That is how you do it in tests. What dhoni does, is apply ODI tactics X5 days in a test match. Not impressive tactician.

One of the reasons Dhoni prefers LOIs is because he is adept at concocting strategies to contain batsmen.........unfortunately.........you can't perpetually contain batsmen in Test matches........

[Muloghonto]

So you are comparing today's first team players with old times bench players. Great thinking there.:giggle: Try comparing 2003 WC team and today's team' date= that team would be superior. And then playing tri series and being in the final is not the biggest thing to boast about. We lost many finals and pressure always won with Ganguly captaincy. Chappel may or may not have been moron but he had the right intentions. I am sure about that and even the 2011 WC team had admitted that Chappel deserves some credit. And today, when I look back at the Ganguly vs Chappel incident, it's Ganguly who looks poor as he shown what a bitter, hopeless, selfish person he is and how much he loves elite power

Largely irrelevant. in 2003, Pakistan, New Zealand, Australia, Sri Lanka and South Africa were better teams than they are today. Who you have at your disposal is half the story. How they match up to the opposition is the other half. You can have 3 Sir Jadejas, 2 Dale Steyns and 2 Kohlis sitting around and if the opposition has 3 laras, 3 marshalls and 2 shane warne's sitting around, then you clearly have inferior talent. Ganguly's era was top-heavy. Meaning, we had better superstars but much much thinner bench strength. In any team sport, its the bench strength that makes up nearly half the team's success story.

[zakk]

this thread has potential

:whack:

[jalebi_bhai]

I am sure about that and even the 2011 WC team had admitted that Chappel deserves some credit. And today' date= when I look back at the Ganguly vs Chappel incident, it's Ganguly who looks poor as he shown what a bitter, hopeless, selfish person he is and how much he loves elite power

Let's have a look at some players from that team shall we: Sehwag (debuted under Jadeja, broke through under Ganguly) Gambhir (debuted under Ganguly, broke through under Dravid/Dhoni) Dhoni (debuted under Ganguly, broke through Dravid/himself) Yuvraj (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Harbhajan (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Zaheer (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Nehra (debuted and broke through under Ganguly) Around half the squad that won the Cup had some sort of influence from Ganguly...... Regarding the Chappell - Ganguly episode....let's see how that panned out eventually for both of them.....Ganguly made a successful comeback to the squad and became a part of the number 1 ranked test side in the world....retiring on a high......he is now a successful TV analyst.......Chappell, on the other hand, has been unceremoniously dumped by his own cricket board.......