Five Indian soldiers killed

[The Outsider]

Yeah, as expected the same war mongering cries about replicating Israel and "eenth ka jawaab patthar se do". India does not have America looking out for us, and Pakistan is a nuclear armed state sitting on our head. The only solutions lie in covert operations through RAW, which has been made more and more ineffective by successive governments after 1971 and diplomatic pressure, which the Indian governments do not seem to understand the meaning of. So, as unfortunate as it is we'll keep on seeing these kind of incidents, which might only speed up once the new breed Jihaadis are rendered jobless on the American exit from Afghanistan.

[adi B]

RIP pakistan will continue with such deleterious acts ,the GOI will continue to be frivolous on such issues,pakistan`s brazenness will increase day by day and our hijra netas dont have time for this.shameful day

[Clarke]

Yeah, as expected the same war mongering cries about replicating Israel and "eenth ka jawaab patthar se do". India does not have America looking out for us, and Pakistan is a nuclear armed state sitting on our head. The only solutions lie in covert operations through RAW, which has been made more and more ineffective by successive governments after 1971 and diplomatic pressure, which the Indian governments do not seem to understand the meaning of. So, as unfortunate as it is we'll keep on seeing these kind of incidents, which might only speed up once the new breed Jihaadis are rendered jobless on the American exit from Afghanistan.

Even though the right wing view of Israel's actions against militant groups in Lebanon/Palestine does not apply to the Indo-Pak context, it is necessary to remember how it fought two front wars against much bigger enemies and emerged victorious. Did their collective civilian and military leadership think on the lines of "OMG we can't fight Egypt & Syria supported by the Arabs & USSR " ? Pakistan army might be better trained than those arab armies but come on, are we supposed to keep taking one blow after another ? They send trained gunmen into our financial capital, behead our soldiers, attack our soldiers/ambush them and all we do is send dossiers and letters ? Doesn't sound like a well spent $50 bil defense budget on a million plus army. Forget the nuclear threat, we're not crossing the borders, we didn't do that during Kargil either. What we do need is a strong response, they should know there's a price to pay for their deeds or else they carry this on. One has to look at the events to realize how brazen they have become since the United States has started moving away from Afghanistan. A day before Soniaji and Manmohanji visited Srinagar, their jihadis attacked an army convoy and killed 8 jawans, wounding 19 others. They casually announced, we can attack and kill your men when we feel its the right time, you don't have complete control over your territory.

[Sachin=GOD]

Yeah' date=' as expected the same war mongering cries about replicating Israel and "[b']eenth ka jawaab patthar se do". India does not have America looking out for us, and Pakistan is a nuclear armed state sitting on our head. The only solutions lie in covert operations through RAW, which has been made more and more ineffective by successive governments after 1971 and diplomatic pressure, which the Indian governments do not seem to understand the meaning of. So, as unfortunate as it is we'll keep on seeing these kind of incidents, which might only speed up once the new breed Jihaadis are rendered jobless on the American exit from Afghanistan.

UPA sarkar toh eenth ka jawaab protest paper se deti hai. As much as I like the idea of covert attacks, I don't think it would work in the current situation where the Pak Army is so openly attacking us and killing our soldiers. No retaliation from the Indian side is only encouraging them.

[zubinpepsi]

sonia and rahul are feeling sad by this attack on indian soldiers.. :hatsoff:

[ravishingravi]

UPA sarkar toh eenth ka jawaab protest paper se deti hai. As much as I like the idea of covert attacks, I don't think it would work in the current situation where the Pak Army is so openly attacking us and killing our soldiers. No retaliation from the Indian side is only encouraging them.

I think India should just support the rebels. Basically, what has helped the situation in Kashmir is India's intervention in Balochistan. We are in war whether we like it or not.

[The Outsider]

Even though the right wing view of Israel's actions against militant groups in Lebanon/Palestine does not apply to the Indo-Pak context, it is necessary to remember how it fought two front wars against much bigger enemies and emerged victorious. Did their collective civilian and military leadership think on the lines of "OMG we can't fight Egypt & Syria supported by the Arabs & USSR " ? Pakistan army might be better trained than those arab armies but come on, are we supposed to keep taking one blow after another ? They send trained gunmen into our financial capital, behead our soldiers, attack our soldiers/ambush them and all we do is send dossiers and letters ? Doesn't sound like a well spent $50 bil defense budget on a million plus army. Forget the nuclear threat, we're not crossing the borders, we didn't do that during Kargil either. What we do need is a strong response, they should know there's a price to pay for their deeds or else they carry this on. One has to look at the events to realize how brazen they have become since the United States has started moving away from Afghanistan. A day before Soniaji and Manmohanji visited Srinagar, their jihadis attacked an army convoy and killed 8 jawans, wounding 19 others. They casually announced, we can attack and kill your men when we feel its the right time, you don't have complete control over your territory.

I wasn't just referring to Palestine, but also the other wars they fought with Middle East countries. They had the unhindered backing of the US and no nuclear threat. The nuclear threat changes the entire situation - even Israel and US are hesitant to act against Iran, when they don't even have a nuclear weapon yet, but are only in the process of acquiring one. Can you explain what strong military response can India give without crossing the border?

[Clarke]

I wasn't just referring to Palestine, but also the other wars they fought with Middle East countries. They had the unhindered backing of the US and no nuclear threat. The nuclear threat changes the entire situation - even Israel and US are hesitant to act against Iran, when they don't even have a nuclear weapon yet, but are only in the process of acquiring one. Can you explain what strong military response can India give without crossing the border?

Something along the lines of the Atlantique incident in 99 a few weeks after the Kargil war. From a private conversation with a retired air force pilot who was in active service during the war, the IAF had been itching for some sort of retribution of Kargil wherein two of its aircraft were downed by enemy missiles inside Indian territory that was occupied by them while our Migs had no permission to shoot down their F16s since they did not violate the airspace. As per the pilot, the Air Force had been waiting for such an opportunity and grabbed it when it came forward. Our superior naval strength presents another sphere of retribution. The other means of sending special forces or firing missiles are much more prone to escalation than those that can be excused by violation of territorial waters/airspace etc.

[Detonator]

I wasn't just referring to Palestine, but also the other wars they fought with Middle East countries. They had the unhindered backing of the US and no nuclear threat. The nuclear threat changes the entire situation - even Israel and US are hesitant to act against Iran, when they don't even have a nuclear weapon yet, but are only in the process of acquiring one. Can you explain what strong military response can India give without crossing the border?

Un-identified Officer : Sir, we should send an immediete and a strong response. Un-identified Higher Officer : We should do a military drill here. That would warn them. Un-identified higher authority : What will be the cost? Un-identified Higher Officer : 10 rounds of cannon ammo, gathering soldiers for march, two attack helis, 1 IAF fighter jet. Estimate around 10 lakhs. Un-identified higher authority : Good, I will immedietely speaks to the minister, get the money alloted for the drill and get it done. Un-identified Officer & Un-identified Higher Officer : THANK YOU SIR!!! JAIHIND!!! Two months later and after another attack. Another Un-identified Officer : Sir, we should send an immediete and a strong response.

[Sachin=GOD]

I think India should just support the rebels. Basically' date= what has helped the situation in Kashmir is India's intervention in Balochistan. We are in war whether we like it or not.

don't see that happening under this Govt. They're already talking of continuing the talks.

[ravishingravi]

don't that happening under this Govt. They're already talking of continuing the talks.

Yeah not sure about the extent. But dealing with Pakistan is like dealing with a wild animal. At some level you need to make sure it exists to keep the balance in nature, but you need to keep giving it little check on whose daddy. I understand the frustration of people. But we are neither US or Israel. And in my book they are also terrorist states. So, lets not eulogize all their actions.

[hhunaeh]

They should do what is needed to weaken and dissuade people who want to harm the country. These are not responses that need to be made public. We are not USA or Israel. The govt will never win the battle of bluster that the opposition wages on the government.

[Crookbond]

They should do what is needed to weaken and dissuade people who want to harm the country. These are not responses that need to be made public. We are not USA or Israel. The govt will never win the battle of bluster that the opposition wages on the government.

IF ONLY - people understand this part clearly. Singing kabir ke dohe or making a chaar line sher in the parliament is as useless as doing nothing. The response should be in actions and not in words.

[Sachin=GOD]

Yeah not sure about the extent. But dealing with Pakistan is like dealing with a wild animal. At some level you need to make sure it exists to keep the balance in nature' date= but you need to keep giving it little check on whose daddy. I understand the frustration of people. But we are neither US or Israel. And in my book they are also terrorist states. So, lets not eulogize all their actions.

Pakistan ATM is just a pawn in the bigger games played by US and China. But still the Govt. needs to take some sort of a hard stance because these "strongly condemn" statements are just encouraging them more and worse still, I would imagine that such lame statements would be quite frustrating for the Indian Army.

[hhunaeh]

IF ONLY - people understand this part clearly. Singing kabir ke dohe or making a chaar line sher in the parliament is as useless as doing nothing. The response should be in actions and not in words.

I think they do understand that certain things cannot be made public which is why they confidently use it a stick to beat the government.

[Khalpat]

IF ONLY - people understand this part clearly. Singing kabir ke dohe or making a chaar line sher in the parliament is as useless as doing nothing. The response should be in actions and not in words.

Ye jo public hai ye sab jaanti hai. But seriously, people are not pissed off due to this one attack and the response of GOI its happening frequently and when these kind of incidents happen we or anyone wants their leader, the people who are running the government to comeout of the shell and boost the confidence and morale of Army as well as civilians. Seriously, do you think our Defence Minister is right when he says "they were millitant in pakistani army uniform". This do not gives a good picture right niether it shows any intent. If this is some strategy beleive me its pathetic to say the least.

[Detonator]

LoC attacks: India, Pak officials on hotline, martyrs' bodies leave for their hometowns India TV reporters/IANS

New Delhi/Jammu/Islamabad, Aug 7: Top military commanders of India and Pakistan on Wednesday spoke on hotline to reduce tensions along the Line of Control (LoC), even as the bodies of the five martyrs left Jammu for their respective hometowns. Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh was present to offer last honours to the five martyrs at Jammu airport. His scheduled visit to Poonch was called off because of bad weather. The bodies of the five martyrs were airlifted from Jammu to Delhi, and from there to Patna and Pune. Meanwhile, the army chief spent the day discussing strategy with the GOC-in-C of Northern Command and the GOC of 16 Corps based in Nagrota. Directors General of Military Operations (DGMOs) of the two countries established contact a day after Pakistanis killed five Indian army jawans inside the Line Of control near Sarla post in Poonch sector. Meanwhile, Pakistan military said that Indian troops fired on a post in Uri sector on Tuesday night and critically injured two soldiers. "A special hotline contact was established this (Wednesday) morning between the DGMOs of Indian and Pakistan Army to discuss the situation arising due to recent Indian allegations on the LoC," Pakistani military sources said. "Pakistan Army DGMO strongly and categorically rejected Indian allegations of LoC violation by Pakistani troops and killing of five Indian soldiers at LoC in Poonch sector on night of Aug 5," the sources said. They said Pakistan Army also lodged a strong protest during special hotline contact for LoC violation by Indian troops in Pandu sector Wednesday in which two Pakistani soldiers were seriously wounded. "It was reiterated by Pakistani DGMO that Pakistan Army (will) abide by the ceasefire agreements existing between the two countries," the military sources said. The recent incidents heightened tensions between the neighbours at a time when Pakistan's new government is trying to improve relations with India and to resume the official dialogue. Officials in the two countries say that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is scheduled to meet his Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in New York in September. Pakistan said last week that it has proposed dates to India for resumption of the official dialogue and awaits Indian response. Pakistan declared a unilateral ceasefire along the LoC in 2003 which was responded positively by India. Jammu: Due to bad weather, the chopper carrying Army Chief Gen Bikran Singh could not take off and he travelled to Akhnoor, 30 km from here, to meet the local commanders, sources said. On his arrival here, Gen. Bikram Singh first visited the Nagrota headquarters of 16 Corps, which is responsible for manning the LoC in Jammu region, including the Poonch district. He later interacted with senior army officers at the division headquarters at Rajouri. Four of the martyred Indian soldiers belonged to the 21 Bihar Regiment and one to the 14 Maratha Light Infantry Regiment. Ara/Danapur (Bihar): Shambu Saran Rai, one of the five soldiers killed in Kashmir, was to come home on a holiday in Bihar's Ara town this week. Now, his grief-stricken family awaits his body. A pall of gloom has descended on Rai's house at Anaitha in Ara, 60 km from Patna, with hundreds of people thronging it to voice their solidarity with the family -- plus anger and anguish. Rai's wife Sapna Devi and mother Kusum Devi fainted several times when they were told about the death. Both were inconsolable. Shambu Rai's father Vansidhar Rai struggles to control his tears. "We were waiting for his arrival as his holiday had been approved. He would have been here Thursday or Friday. But destiny had something else in store. Now his body will arrive, not him," Rai senior told IANS. Sapna Devi married Rai 12 years ago. They have three daughters and a son. "She is shattered. Her world has crashed. She is unable to say anything except cry," said Rai. The sorrow apart, the father is proud of his son. "It is a rare thing that my son died for India. We are proud of him," he said. A Non-Commissioned Officer and four soldiers were killed when the attackers, including men in Pakistani military uniform, sneaked into Indian territory and ambushed an army patrol near the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir early Tuesday. One soldier was injured. Equally distraught is Pushpa Devi, wife of Vijay Kumar Rai, another of the soldiers killed in the deadly ambush. She is unable to come to terms that her husband is no more. Vijay Rai had left her at their house in Danapur near Patna July 27 to report for duty in Poonch in Jammu and Kashmir. "After TVs reported that five soldiers had been killed in the border, she tried several times to call him on his phone but failed to get a response. She was not ready to accept anything negative till Vijay's brother, who is with the army too, gave her the bad news," said Vijay's brother Rajkishore Rai, a resident of Anandpur Thehka village. Vijay's uncle Ramji Singh told IANS that Vijay Rai would be remembered for his bravery for the country. "He is now an icon of sacrifice." Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar has announced a state funeral for all four soldiers of the 21 Bihar Regiment who were killed and a compensation of Rs.10 lakh for their families. Besides, Sambhu and Vijay, the other slain soldiers are Prem Nath and Raghunandan Prasad, both from Bihar's Saran district, and Naik Pundalik Mane from Maharashtra. The killings have impacted ties between India and Pakistan, whose prime ministers are widely expected to meet on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly next month.

[The Outsider]

Something along the lines of the Atlantique incident in 99 a few weeks after the Kargil war. From a private conversation with a retired air force pilot who was in active service during the war, the IAF had been itching for some sort of retribution of Kargil wherein two of its aircraft were downed by enemy missiles inside Indian territory that was occupied by them while our Migs had no permission to shoot down their F16s since they did not violate the airspace. As per the pilot, the Air Force had been waiting for such an opportunity and grabbed it when it came forward. Our superior naval strength presents another sphere of retribution. The other means of sending special forces or firing missiles are much more prone to escalation than those that can be excused by violation of territorial waters/airspace etc.

It's not so straightforward. Yeah, one can pull off an odd incident like that. But in the long run it just jeopardizes the safety of thousands of fishermen, who ply the Arabian Sea. If RAW had not been terminally disabled by successive governments after the '71 war, that would have been the ideal way to go. Right now, we can't even take out Hafeez Sayeed who roams the streets of Pakistan openly, forget about someone like Dawood who at least hides. All RAW is good for is giving a nice story line to Bollywood movies.

[The Outsider]

Un-identified Officer : Sir, we should send an immediete and a strong response. Un-identified Higher Officer : We should do a military drill here. That would warn them. Un-identified higher authority : What will be the cost? Un-identified Higher Officer : 10 rounds of cannon ammo, gathering soldiers for march, two attack helis, 1 IAF fighter jet. Estimate around 10 lakhs. Un-identified higher authority : Good, I will immedietely speaks to the minister, get the money alloted for the drill and get it done. Un-identified Officer & Un-identified Higher Officer : THANK YOU SIR!!! JAIHIND!!! Two months later and after another attack. Another Un-identified Officer : Sir, we should send an immediete and a strong response.

Perhaps you don't care because you live in Tamil Nadu, but my parents live well within the range of Pakistan's nuclear missiles.

[Detonator]

Perhaps you don't care because you live in Tamil Nadu' date=' but my parents live well within the range of Pakistan's nuclear missiles.[/quote'] What I meant was, the promised actions aren't taken quicky as it passes many levels in democracy. The battalion stationed there will be very furious and frustrated now. The families might want to avenge the loss. But that ain't gonna happen. I also have a huge respect for the patience and hope that the soldiers have. A simple drill should be carried in a regular basis to warn the enemies. Who knows, the cost of the drills might also be eaten by politicians.