randomGuy Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 40 crores out of 1.2 billion is roughly 35% coverage! And I am sure the coverage %age is states like Bihar' date=' UP, Bengal, MP, C-Garh, Orissa, North East etc will be even lower. And those are the states where the maximum number of beneficiaries of FSB reside. It's a bit like the Golden Quatrilateral project, which after its 2002 lanch, had a 50% completion by 2004 but got stuck at 70-75% by around 2007-08 as progress in the states mentioned above got stuck.[/quote'] Aadhaar's started 1st enrollment in sept 2010. Its stated goals are 400 million enrollments by 2013 end. 600 million by 2014 end. Entire Indian population by March 2017.:) It is well ahead(at 411 million enrollments) of its goal today. But it needs to carry on like that. People do not see the incentives in the initial phase to come out and enroll but gradually start to see its purpose as more and more %age gets covered. I seriously wish you watch the full video I shared in last post. note that Cash benefits need not be tied to Aadhaar, For ex. people can just come and give their biometric data. The software will determine whether the person has availed the benefits within a month or not. And based on that they will or will not receive cash. Sure, there may be corruption in some cases. No denying that. With due respect to your experiences, I believe big majority of Indian population does live in areas where there is mobile signal. The signal may be up n down at different places. Sorry about how I started my last post, that post's start was not conducive for healthy debate.
Crookbond Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 Desi Cartman arrey yar, here is where modern technology comes to rescue. Today we can verify and store biometric data on cloud (as in cloud computing). Use a cheap device like a micro-Atm among other device for verification purposes. This was not possible as early as even 4-5 years back. There is very little scope of mismanagement, leakage, inaction by gov. employees and corruption in cash benefit scheme using biometric verification. Make a proven guy like a Nandan Nilekani or a Sreedharan the head of such a project. Trust me, its do-able and not that tough either.. Biometric verification is not a silver bullet - it is far from even acceptable in the current standards. Let me not bring the data sharing issues for now else I will open up a Pandora's Box.
Sachin=GOD Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 What if the cash transfer ends up on daru? a substantial part of it will end up that way. The FSB along with a poorly implemented MNAREGA and Direct Cash Transfer may end up making a large number of young rural Indians unproductive and unwilling to work in order to earn their living. Add to that the crushing financial burden on an already faltering economy and its a perfect recipe for long term disaster.
randomGuy Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 a substantial part of it will end up that way. The FSB along with a poorly implemented MNAREGA and Direct Cash Transfer may end up making a large number of young rural Indians unproductive and unwilling to work in order to earn their living. Add to that the crushing financial burden on an already faltering economy and its a perfect recipe for long term disaster. I hear what you're saying and those are some valid concerns. See the relative prices of things: Rs 4600 - minimum one-way Delhi-Bangalore airfare Versus Rs 25 per Kg for Wheat flour Rs 32 for 1ltr toned milk Rs 250 each per month for phone bill, Digital Tv connection etc. Its not a huge sum that I am proposing. People will have to work hard for a better, more fulfilling life. The benefits far outweigh the adverse effects, it will: 1. stop exploitation of the labor class to a great extent, give them some sort of financial security and will promise them atleast some sort of fulfilling life. Same for the old, disabled people as well. Also help improve position of women in poor households as they will also be eligible to receive same amount of cash. 2. stop mismanagement, leakages, inaction and corruption in the current subsidy schemes. So, on average, the needy will benefit far more than they do from current schemes without any additional expenditure. 3. mostly eradicate dire poverty in least amount of time. MNAREGA for me, is purely a social benefit/subsidy scheme because it doesn't help in any sort of asset creation. That should be abolished along with food and fuel subsidy , ~3 lac crore annually be saved from this and spent as cash-benefit scheme.
Sachin=GOD Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Food Security Bill credit negative, will weaken finances further: Moody's - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/finance/food-security-bill-credit-negative-will-weaken-finances-further-moodys/articleshow/22136483.cms
diga Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 irony is that after passing pro-poor policies of Food bill/land bill, Madamji is on her way to US for an expensive treatment ..(most probably at the taxpayers expense) :((
Desi Cartman Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Giving cash maybe a better solution than other crappy solutions that this sarkar has come up with but Indians need to realize that we are a poor country and even basic facilities like hospitals are unavailable for a lot of poor. We need support for businesses so more jobs are created while sarkar can try to provide basic facilities like water, electricity and basic healthcare for the very poor. Doing math and saying lets give free money doesn't help the economy and there are no long term benefits for the poor either. I find is almost amusing when a country where almost no one pays taxes, starts these programs giving free things. It's basic math, if you have 0 or for that matter even 10, then you can not give away 80. That's what people assume that the govt can afford and will benefit the poor in the long term.
randomGuy Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Desi Cartman 1. Absolutely, more hospitals, better gov. schools, support for businesses, job creation, self reliant economy - these are a must. Not disputing that. My point in this thread is that we should abolish MNREGA, Fuel and Food security and go for Cash benefits using biometric verification. That would be way more useful for the people on average and will eliminate 'dire/extreme poverty' from this nation in least amount of time. 2. When I look at those mal-nourished, unhealthy, stressed out daily laborers cutting stone, digging ground, lifting heavy stuff on their heads etc in hot, humid and polluted conditions for entire day and every day, for so little n being exploited by their bosses, I feel for them. and I know its also true for many of you. A couple with 2 children would just be eligible for 2000/-(in Urban) or 1650/- (in rural). Its not a huge sum, its not that they will become un-productive. A low-end house today costs lets say 20-25 lacs, LCD TV 25K, Car 3 lacs, Two wheeler 50K, monthly house rent wouldn't be less than 5K. Then there's Money required to raise children, electricity, phone, food, transportation, healthcare expenses... So they will still work hard. 3. Such scheme should be totally viable fiscally. Specific pre-decided money will have to be allocated for it. You have said, only a few pay income tax, but I am sure you will realize that income tax is a small part of gov revenue. There are many more indirect and direct taxes.
ravishingravi Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 7 FACTS about the ambitious Food Bill http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-7-facts-about-the-ambitious-food-bill/20130826.htm#1
Desi Cartman Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Food bill: will it be passed today by Parliament? Desi Cartman 1. Absolutely, more hospitals, better gov. schools, support for businesses, job creation, self reliant economy - these are a must. Not disputing that. My point in this thread is that we should abolish MNREGA, Fuel and Food security and go for Cash benefits using biometric verification. That would be way more useful for the people on average and will eliminate 'dire/extreme poverty' from this nation in least amount of time. 2. When I look at those mal-nourished, unhealthy, stressed out daily laborers cutting stone, digging ground, lifting heavy stuff on their heads etc in hot, humid and polluted conditions for entire day and every day, for so little n being exploited by their bosses, I feel for them. and I know its also true for many of you. A couple with 2 children would just be eligible for 2000/-(in Urban) or 1650/- (in rural). Its not a huge sum, its not that they will become un-productive. A low-end house today costs lets say 20-25 lacs, LCD TV 25K, Car 3 lacs, Two wheeler 50K, monthly house rent wouldn't be less than 5K. Then there's Money required to raise children, electricity, phone, food, transportation, healthcare expenses... So they will still work hard. . Bottom line is that majority of Indian population will be eligible for these benefits so for every 3 dependents, there is 1 tax payer. Secondly it's not based on circumstances like getting training or unemployed etc so there is no real end. Feeling sorry for poor people is one thing but announcing terrible unaffordable schemes is another. I haven't said that people will become lazy but their overall life will still be tough. It's a scheme that makes well to do Indians feel happy and its a way to let go off the guilt. These governments are still not able to provide clean drinking water in Delhi for days, yes to rich people so how they will manage this huge scheme is beyond my understanding. 3. Such scheme should be totally viable fiscally. Specific pre-decided money will have to be allocated for it. You have said, only a few pay income tax, but I am sure you will realize that income tax is a small part of gov revenue. There are many more indirect and direct taxes. Number 1, there is no money. I don't understand why Indian janta can't understand that when 1 person pays for the other 3 and then pays market rate for his own family, it's not a model that can work in any country. The estimates provided are very conservative and do not even include admin cost, infrastructure cost, price rise over the next 10 years. If people and sarkar think that going the USSR way is the right approach where govt distributes bread then only god can help.
Clarke Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 DC, are you for or against the poor :orderorder:
randomGuy Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 Desi Cartman, I was looking at around 300 million 15 yr+ old potential beneficiaries after all the checks which we will have to think of. One of the checks can be what I suggested in Post#52, more will have to be invented leveraging the technology available today. Plus an independent body headed by a person of proven track record would have to be constituted. Say one person avails 8000/- cash per year on average. Total cost comes 2.4 lac crore annually which would be taken out by abolishing MNREGA, food and fuel subsidy. DC' date=' are you for or against the poor :orderorder:[/quote'] Right, I concede that the following part wasn't needed:
Desi Cartman Posted September 2, 2013 Posted September 2, 2013 DC' date=' are you for or against the poor :orderorder:[/quote'] I'm for Vadra only
randomGuy Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Some steps that I could think of - 1. Make a rule - Person with income exceeding 'x' , bank balance exceeding 'y', any immovable property or vehicle registered in his/her name is not applicable for cash benefit. Tax return filing be made mandatory for incomes exceeding 'x', Biometric data association be made mandatory with PAN card, bank accounts, Vehicle registration records and immovable property registration records(even for all past records) to enforce this rule. 2. Fines be levied if the rule is flouted. 3. Make state-wise allocation for the scheme based on the poverty numbers for each state. 4. An independent body like UIDAI or DMRC be constituted for the scheme. I believe the above steps will limit the number of beneficiaries to 300 million. If not, one can think about giving the benefits just to women or people over 50+ yr who meet the above criteria and to the disabled people.
The Outsider Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 LOL! The Indian middle and upper class which sucks up subsidies, drives around in gas guzzlers, loads themselves in gold, does not pay taxes is crying about a little bit of money being given out to the poor. Cry me a fecking river!
FischerTal Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 LOL! The Indian middle and upper class which sucks up subsidies' date=' drives around in gas guzzlers, loads themselves in gold, does not pay taxes is crying about a little bit of money being given out to the poor. Cry me a fecking river! [/quote'] So where does the tax revenue come from?
The Outsider Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 So where does the tax revenue come from? From government and companies forced to give an accounting because they are public. 3% of the population pays taxes in India. EDIT: I don't think the Indian middle and upper class is entitled to a dhela from the government till they honestly start paying taxes.
FischerTal Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 From government and companies forced to give an accounting because they are public. 3% of the population pays taxes in India. EDIT: I don't think the Indian middle and upper class is entitled to a dhela from the government till they honestly start paying taxes. But what about things like service tax, property tax, excise duty? PS: not looking for a fight, just want to know more on this subject
The Outsider Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 But what about things like service tax, property tax, excise duty? PS: not looking for a fight, just want to know more on this subject Not picking up a fight either, but the ethos of any successful society starts from it's middle class. Our middle class is so inherently corrupt that just trying to pay them their taxes will raise the fiscal deficit manifold, figuratively speaking. Service tax, property tax etc. are there in other countries too and frankly would not be needed in a country like India where there is a huge growth in the middle class - too bad that they never disclose their incomes and force the government to come up with these pseudo taxation strategies to make up for the the deficit.
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