India and bowling

[express bowling]

See, here again we are putting the cart before the horse and is a prime example of our cluelessness about bowling. You do not see the skills of a bowler by looking at the speedguns, it's plain and simple. You just look at how good he is. You can look at every bowler who bowls above 140 kph in India and still have as much chance of finding a great bowler as of winning the lottery

You do not seem to have much clue about pace bowling either. I am not trying to find the skills of a pacer by looking at the speedgun readings. I will look at a) the run up, action, release, seam position, b) consistency, line, length, c) ability to swing, reverse swing, seam the ball, d) get zip and bounce off the pitch, e) ability to gauge the conditions of the match and the pitch, f) ability to bowl to an effective plan, g) bowling good Yorkers, bouncers, slower delivers as and when needed h) ability to utilize a batsman's weakness etc. If look for these qualities in pacers who are actually bowling 135 k + then I don't see how the process becomes ineffective. If you find a pacer who is not looking skillful , or a bad bowler at 135 k + then there is no need to consider him unless he improves. You are confusing us or the selectors with lower level bowling coaches who, I, agree , should not look at speed gun readings but should look at how good a bowler is and develop his bowling technique and strength/stamina so that he can be quick as well as skillful. We are discussing near finished products here and we have to see what effects a bowler is having too. If real skill is noticed in a slower pacer then I have never advocated ignoring him completely. I am all for including Bhuvi, but you are choosing to ignore it conveniently.

If a bowler is good , has great rhythm and skills, he will automatically also have decent pace. Pace is a bi-product of an athletic, skillful bowler in rhythm. If you want to encourage blind pace culture, you might find a couple of bowlers who hit 140 kph with wrong and unsustainable actions and you will never be as close to finding a good bowler as you are now. And isn't this evident? Isn't this also why bowlers like Munaf and Ishant fade off? Because their pace was not natural and never sustainable

You have said that, " if a bowler is good, has great rhythm and skills, he will automatically have pace". Not true. Pace comes as a result of having fast twich muscles, having great*flexibility, intention to bowl quick and put in effort during training and during bowling, rhythm during bowling etc. All the top pace bowling coaches as well as biomechanists say this. All pacers, no matter how good their rhythm or action is, will not have high or even decent pace. Where have I said, " encourage blind pace culture". You are putting words in my mouth. I have talked about combining pace and skill. Those bowlers who are clocking 140+ with unsustainable actions need not e included. Munaf Patel's pace was quite natural. He lost it because he is too lazy. Ishant's problem is he is too dumb. He tries too many things. When he was included, he did not look unskilled or with a bad action ad he looks now. He changed his approach multiple times. Even pacers like Pathan, Balaji, RP etc., who were not picked for their pace but because they had skill , lost pace and effectiveness. Why are you choosing to ignore that ?

So to summarize, you thinking first looking at pace and then trying to find a good bowler will narrow down our margins of finding one. I say, never gonna happen, pace is a bi-product of good bowling not the other way around. It will be like looking at the amount of smoke coming out of a vehicle and trying to guess which has a more powerful engine. A very wasteful method

Pace is not necessarily a product of good bowling ad I have explained above. Also, what is good bowling is very subjective. Vinay Kumar, who looks like a good bowler at Ranji level, looks abysmal at international level. Even his control and consistency vanishes because he becomes a sitting duck. Selecting a good pacer by watching domestic matches is a misnomer because what is good at domestic level is often so very inadequate at international level. There is no problem with considering pace and skill of a bowler separately. It is just your bias which is preventing you from doing so. Tell me, why do successful players from countries which have actually produced good pace bowlers always check the speed of a pacer first while talking about pace talent. Australians, South Africans, West Indians and English ate always discussing about pace. Hayden was talking recently about the importance of 140k + speeds in international cricket because anything lesser gives them time to play unless you are tall and bouncy and ' at your face' like McGrath. All these people know more than you and I and I will gladly take their word over yours.

[G_B_]

When the alternative is Ishant Sharma, then the combination of Bhuvi and Pandey will automatically look better. Again, we are advocating blind use of speed guns. Steyn is a 90 mph Steyn, not a 90 mph Sami. And if the alternative was Sami or Ishant, I would have Pandey anyday and he will be more effective too. And this is exactly my point. We are of the opinion that a 90 mph Ishant and 90 mph Steyn are same values to their team. We are so blinded by this that we pick someone like Ishant over Pandey every tiime using this logic of variety in pace. But 9 out of 10 times Ishant is thrash and costs us. We have still not learnt our lesson. Umesh should be tried because he is a decent 90 mph bowler, not just a 90 mph bowler. And the most wonderful part of this is that people would pick an Ishant who bowls 90 over Pandey even if we can assure that Pandey gives 45 for 2 over Ishant's 60 for 1 just because of "pace" We are so blinded by this lure of pace that even when we see that a bowler is completely useless and will give more runs, we still look at speedguns and turn a blind eye. We are quick to call names like trundlers to slower bowler despite average performance while we don't thrash bowlers with a few kph more despite thrash performance Believe me, if a Steyn comes along in India, he will stand out from a mile apart. We won't need to look at any speed guns to know we have found a star. Till then we have to stop hyping very average bowlers by just looking at speed guns and ignore slightly ok bowlers and thrash them. Steyn stood out as a star in his set up. Here we are hoping that someone like Ishant will suddenly wake up and stun us. Pace or no pace, you can find out how useless a bowler is after few matches. He should then not be kept in the team in the name of "fast" bowling or death overs

The alternative is to keep looking for a player who has pace and accuracy and not settle for a pandey ishant or even umesh. The fact is these guys can go back to the domestics where they can earn a decent wage. The era of national team or bust is over. I am sure somebody is going to pick up a Pandey for a decent price in the IPL. Maybe if we drop people for being slow and drop people for being not accurate then we have sent a clear message to emerging bowlers of India. You need to have pace and accuracy. Or you need to be an exceptional trundler like Bhuvi to hack it. Unlike a human being a cricket team is an entity which cannot die or get old. The search for good bowlers is perpetual. India has many people. Its a young nation with median age of about 27-28.

[youngindia]

Not true. Pace comes as a result of having fast twich muscles, having great*flexibility, intention to bowl quick and put in effort during training and during bowling, rhythm during bowling etc. All the top pace bowling coaches as well as biomechanists say this.

Its a natural gift to bowl fast or be athletic. action is like a tool to use that gift. even ppl with most sound action will settle at their natural speed only.(it is possible ppl were underharnessing that gift and later picked up pace) from what I read from ppl who love pace here, they are sick of medium paced swing bowlers who will never be that great. I myself do not see a point in production of 5 7 footers swinging at 125 consistently at junior levels.its getting nowhere.its status quo. I prefer to see more taller 130 pacers at both junior and state levels.this indicates the problem with grass roots. this does not eman anyone is under any illusion everyone over 130 is great or that every 6ft 5 guy is going to succeed. but that's the pool that is mostly likely to produce the few champions. I don't think ppl are exactly intolerant of the odd 127-131 pacer who could be decent but never great. but seeing the same kind of bowlers again and again when the batting is going great guns is highly frustrating. binny would be easily accepted in the 80's. but nowadays the patience is wearing thin since more 130 k bowlers are coming up in the ranks. infact in the 90's, did anyone except srinath touch 130 consistently? that's how bad it was. ishant had more than pace going for him when impressed many ppl in 2008 and that includes McGrath and steyn themselves. ishant lost it in search for the outswinger since an inswinging bowler is usually not backed to be a great. that ppl look blindly at speed guns is only a figment of imagination.

[Cricketics]

I see where you coming from MTW. I agree with lot of it and would like to add some of my own views on this. I grew up in the India where even though grounds or roads or in gullies had puddles of water or broken concrete, or stones spread, or even in the worst of situation, if rickshaw was parked near the boundary line which might leave when you are batting 2nd in gully cricket, our people and we all still would bat first after winning the toss in our respective cricket mohallas. The passion to win the toss and bat and the charm people get to bat in India is no where to be seen in any part of the world. We grew up as a batting nation. This nation needed more all rounders like Kapil Dev. We never really could find any bowler whom people would or could idolize. Within all this, is hidden your answer about and what you are trying to portray Indian people as. Yes, they do lack lot of knowledge of bowling. We are hungry cougars right now, desperately looking for anything which can make a difference for our bowling. India is one of those nations who has players who after having a poor series or two, start to concentrate a bit on batting and don't do the same hard work which they have in the past to get in the Indian team as a bowler. This nation needs one sparkling bowler who has to develop on his own and be one of a kind whom people definitely idolize and it would inspire our people to work hard on bowling. Idols and what we see on tv does make a lot of difference in sporting world. I know bollywood maniacs from my school days in India have turned into Soccer maniacs after the increase in English Premier league tv coverage. I am sure if someone can come up on his own as a bowler and make a name for India, there we will have it. He will definitely be the inspiration to many bowlers to come.

[Lord]

To me,skills,pace and accuracy are three important factors for fast bowling.you can be good even if you are good in even 2.like BK is good in accuracy + swing/seam However what drives people mad I guess is when trundlers are selected even though they dont have skills or accuracy.if you are going to be wayward or lack skills,atleast pace can be the saving grace.bowlers like VK,Ishant have nothing going for them

[G_B_]

@ Cricketics i thought Dev was that idolising bowler. We have yet to produce a seam bowling allrounder or even an allrounder who plays in all formats. What i wont give for another Dev. A player who brings balance to the force.

[express bowling]

Again, we are advocating blind use of speed guns. Steyn is a 90 mph Steyn, not a 90 mph Sami. And this is exactly my point. We are of the opinion that a And if the alternative was Sami or Ishant, I would have Pandey anyday and he will be more effective 90 mph Ishant and 90 mph Steyn are same values to their team. We are so blinded by this that we pick someone like Ishant over Pandey every tiime using this logic of variety in pace. But 9 out of 10 times Ishant is thrash and costs us. We have still not learnt our lesson. Umesh should be tried because he is a decent 90 mph bowler, not just a 90 mph bowler. And the most wonderful part of this is that people would pick an Ishant who bowls 90 over Pandey even if we can assure that Pandey gives 45 for 2 over Ishant's 60 for 1 just because of "pace" Believe me, if a Steyn comes along in India, he will stand out from a mile apart. We won't need to look at any speed guns to know we have found a star. Till then we have to stop hyping very average bowlers by just looking at speed guns and ignore slightly ok bowlers and thrash them. up. suddenly wake up and stun us. Pace or no pace, you can find out how useless a bowler is after few matches. He should then not be kept in the team in the name of "fast" bowling or death overs

It is strange that you are only quoting Ishant's example as a representative of a quick bowler. Firstly, almost everyone in this forum is asking for Ishant's exclusion from the team, so what are you fighting against. Who here is asking for Ishant because he is a quick bowler ? I have specifically written about wanting to exclude him but as usual you are ignoring this. Ishant's inclusion in the team even now has more to do with politics than his pace because there are many quicker bowlers than him getting ignored. Why are you not considering the pacy and skilful Shami Ahmed, who has added tremendous value to the bowling attack ? I and others are repeatedly talking about including skilled or effective quick pacers and you are talking about unskilled pacers. It does not even make sense. Bowling well at high pace is a matter of intent , motivation as well as ability. Tremendous effort is required both on and off the field. Dale Steyn would not be the bowler that he is today if he was taught to play cricket in India. You assume that it it is an automatic thing. Anyone with Steyn's talent will become a bowler like him. Well, that is not the case and a lot of motivation to bowl well at pace is required right from the grassroot level to the test level. That is surely lacking here.

[express bowling]

The alternative is to keep looking for a player who has pace and accuracy and not settle for a pandey ishant or even umesh. Maybe if we drop people for being slow and drop people for being not accurate then we have sent a clear message to emerging bowlers of India. You need to have pace and accuracy. Or you need to be an exceptional trundler like Bhuvi to hack it.

Very good point. Anybody who is not pacy or not accurate should be temporary inclusions and told as such and the search should be on for pacy and skilful bowlers. Like Shami in the last match.

[rkt.india]

a you look at South Africa, Steyn is usually 92-88 Morkel is 85-88 with occasional ball in the 90s while Philander is 80-82. They operating in different ranges. .

Morkel is usually faster than Steyn in test matches, BTW. Last test against Pak is an example. Morkal was consistently clocking high 140s. PS: Actually, I just checked cricinfo and both were at same pace, Morkel marginally quicker on average.

[rkt.india]

And this is exactly my point. We are of the opinion that a 90 mph Ishant and 90 mph Steyn are same values to their team. We are so blinded by this that we pick someone like Ishant over Pandey every tiime using this logic of variety in pace. But 9 out of 10 times Ishant is thrash and costs us. We have still not learnt our lesson. Umesh should be tried because he is a decent 90 mph bowler, not just a 90 mph bowler. And the most wonderful part of this is that people would pick an Ishant who bowls 90 over Pandey even if we can assure that Pandey gives 45 for 2 over Ishant's 60 for 1 just because of "pace" s

This is what is wrong. Thing is Ishant is not bowling quick. If he bowls quick, it means he is in rhythm and bowling well but these days his average pace is not much more than BK. Ishant is only good if he can bowl quick because he lacks the skills of BK and if he is not then it is useless to have him in the team.

[rkt.india]

You do not seem to have much clue about pace bowling either. I am not trying to find the skills of a pacer by looking at the speedgun readings. I will look at a) the run up, action, release, seam position, b) consistency, line, length, c) ability to swing, reverse swing, seam the ball, d) get zip and bounce off the pitch, e) ability to gauge the conditions of the match and the pitch, f) ability to bowl to an effective plan, g) bowling good Yorkers, bouncers, slower delivers as and when needed h) ability to utilize a batsman's weakness etc. .

The things you mentioned not everything comes to a bowler from the start. Some of these things are learnt with experience.

[rkt.india]

Believe me, if a Steyn comes along in India, he will stand out from a mile apart. We won't need to look at any speed guns to know we have found a star. Till then we have to stop hyping very average bowlers by just looking at speed guns and ignore slightly ok bowlers and thrash them. Steyn stood out as a star in his set up. Here we are hoping that someone like Ishant will suddenly wake up and stun us. Pace or no pace, you can find out how useless a bowler is after few matches. He should then not be kept in the team in the name of "fast" bowling or death overs

It is not like Steyn became world class from day one. He was first picked because he had pace. Pace is the main attribute for many a bowlers to be picked early. Steyn played his first test match just one year after his FC debut. What was the reason? Pace. Cummins played his first test match at 18 without even doing much in FC cricket or playing too many FC matches. What was the reason? pace. Other things come only after that. Steyn played for Sussex in 2005-06, averaged 50+ in that season but that season changed him as a bowler as he got good guidance there. Steyn was not born with skills or debuted with all the skills form day one. They only came later with experience and good guidance. Good guidance is what our bowlers lack. Because you are not going to get readymade bowlers. You will have to make them. Select potential talented bowlers, assess what kind of attributes they have, what they lack and then provide them guidance. Some may learn things with guidance, some may not, but the guys who learn should be the ones we persist ahead. This is where we talk about 140K bowlers because pace is a raw element which can hardly be taught and is an added advantage if not everything and if a bowler has this element, we should try to make him learn other aspects of the game through good guidance. I am not against a bowler like BK who has extraordinary skills of swing with new ball but a bowler like VK who even at his max potential is below average.

[rkt.india]

To me,skills,pace and accuracy are three important factors for fast bowling.you can be good even if you are good in even 2.like BK is good in accuracy + swing/seam However what drives people mad I guess is when trundlers are selected even though they dont have skills or accuracy.if you are going to be wayward or lack skills,atleast pace can be the saving grace.bowlers like VK,Ishant have nothing going for them

Yes. Skills, Pace and consistency. Two of them skill and consistency can be attained by guidance and practice, not pace. Pace mostly comes naturally. One can hardly learn it. So if a guy has pace, he can be taught skills and consistency with guidance.

[FischerTal]

Yes. Skills' date=' Pace and consistency. Two of them skill and consistency can be attained by guidance and practice, not pace. Pace mostly come naturally. One can hardly learn it. So if a guy has pace, he can be taught skills and consistency with guidance.[/quote'] true, and i think rahul shukla can be one that combines all three in the future

[express bowling]

The things you mentioned not everything comes to a bowler from the start. Some of these things are learnt with experience.

I was not referring to new bowlers but what qualities I would consider as skills in a pacer while choosing him for the national team.

[Vilander]

Chill everyone,two cents is obviously trolling pace fans. Everybody even him knows that no one in this forum looks only at the speed gun to judge a paceman, there has been universal acclaim showered on Bhuv kumar while a genuine effort from Vinay has been lauded too. Just that Vinay sucks for the most part and puissant sucks always. Even when Yadav has sprayed at pace he has not been popular, there was ridicule on Johnson when he started spraying. Its clear what everyone wants control at good to great pace.. Let us see, Shami has arrived, would he stay fit. Would Aaron ever make a comeback, how will Yadav fare in SA, will Panday/Shukla make the cut..interesting times. Some one above wrote about the perpetual hunt, very interesting thought, one should read about the 'perpetual war' concept of Chinese.

[Ibes]

We fans do go too far sometimes in our nitpicking and complaining and worrying but it pains me to admit that none our pace bowlers have given 100% and this turns all of us into haters sometimes but they don't really need to be here if they do not want to give max effort. Maybe the newer generation will be better, let's hope.

[tweaker]

We should always searchfor the next best.If Vinay KumarB kumar and Ishant Sharma are struggling,they should have been dropped and asked to play in Ranji.They should not have been kept in the squad to warm the bench.Instead Mohit Sharma,Ishwar Pandey should have been in the squad

[Tiger80]

And the later, has proven his prowess on all wickets including UAE, with a speed of 125kph and is no 2 on the bowling list, just behind Steyn. Now confess, which Indian will even give a chance to Philander over the tall, fast Morkel? Will performance matter?

Actually Philander was easily bowling in 133-134 in last test match.I don't think most Indians are opposed to this type of pacers

[abbicory]

It's very informative post because Indian Cricket Team is the national cricket team of India. Many Indian player plays in the Indian team, and delver very well bowls and find more wicket. Thank you so much for sharing this interesting cricket information with us. ______________ Watch Live Cricket Online