Indian pacers do not 'warm up' to Dawes's 'Mannequin Training'

[Scarves]

The Australians and South Africans of the early to mid 00's were arrogant as hell but they worked their asses off. It doesn't matter what they seem like as people because we don't see it. We can go by stories from press and people that we know that worked with them.

[G_B_]

The Australians and South Africans of the early to mid 00's were arrogant as hell but they worked their asses off. It doesn't matter what they seem like as people because we don't see it. We can go by stories from press and people that we know that worked with them.

this is not a question of working their asses off. Its more of a question of technique and methodology. For example you can run for 20 miles to build stamina or you can swim. Different methods to accomplish the same goal. Somebody like Bhuvi for example, does not look fat at all. I can say that nearly everybody in the Indian squad looks fit. We are having problems taking catches, especially Kohli at slip but the squad appears to be perfect in terms of weight. Rahane is taking the help of Praveen amre outside India time and Raina is working with Ganguly. Yuvraj played in the Hazare trophy as did shami . That does not sound like the actions of the squad who are lazy. and with regards to your earlier post, chappell was hated cause he seems to play out everything in the media. He had numerous money making ventures on the side such as "Guru Greg" coaching manuals and used to charge money to the press to take interviews. Clearly the BCCI learnt their lesson have chose coaches who kept quiet such as Kirsten and others such as Fletcher. On the whole I dont think we can blame Dawes for trying you new things. Yes he tried it 3 months ago and it did not work out. At the end of the day the Indian bowlers need to do what they feel comfortable with.

[Scarves]

Yeah see the whole need to do what they feel isn't paying off. I don't think it is the bowlers as much as the team culture. I mean minus Virat Kohli, Pujara and I guess Rahane, we haven't seen people who are heavily involved in pre-game or team training. I mean yes it is good to meet with older players but that isn't really training with the team and staff. I saw India playing in 11/12 and only Dravid, Gambhir, Kohli and Yadav seemed like they were putting in the hard yards and preparing well as the same for the Australians but the others just lofted around. I don't remember seeing it when Kumble and Ganguly were captains either. But really if your bowling attack is laughed at around the world and people see this article, it is then kind of hard not to feel sorry for the coaching staff.

[beetle]

^^^^ A lot of generalization going on there in that statement.Just because some people are not successful doesn't mean they were not giving their best.If it was only about putting in the hrs at training...far more people would be more successful. Dawes has been unsuccessful as a coach for two long to just hide behind his ignored mannequin .It is less likely that all bowlers are slacking and more likely that the coach has been.

[G_B_]

Yeah see the whole need to do what they feel isn't paying off. I don't think it is the bowlers as much as the team culture. I mean minus Virat Kohli, Pujara and I guess Rahane, we haven't seen people who are heavily involved in pre-game or team training. I mean yes it is good to meet with older players but that isn't really training with the team and staff. I saw India playing in 11/12 and only Dravid, Gambhir, Kohli and Yadav seemed like they were putting in the hard yards and preparing well as the same for the Australians but the others just lofted around. I don't remember seeing it when Kumble and Ganguly were captains either. But really if your bowling attack is laughed at around the world and people see this article, it is then kind of hard not to feel sorry for the coaching staff.

Maybe the job of the coaching staff is to ensure that they come up with ways which is suited to the bowlers? Dawes has been in his job for what 3 years? Fine the mannequin thing did not work. Surely there are other methods as well. Its not the only coaching method in the world. Some of the best managers I know, keep trying things till it fits their team. Take my managar, at first he wanted people to turn up to the office 24/7. But gradually he realised that people with families could not concentrate on the job. So he allowed us to work from home and productivity rose. Some of my collogues with children work mostly at night when its quiet at home. It works. He managed that in about 6 months time. As much as I hate to say this but Venky Prasad was doing a much better job with our seamers. He understood what they needed.

[bharat297]

A few general comments here: * Just because players "look fit" doesn't mean that they are. Being skinny and being fit are two different things. Fitness is a vague term that depends on the context. Someone could be aerobically quite fit, but they might only bowl at 115-120km/h because they lack the sufficient strength and power to drive through the crease (this is all assuming that their bowling action is not flawed either). Conversely, someone could look quite strong, or actually be quite strong, but they lack the explosive strength to be able to bowl quickly. Bowling-specific fitness is measured by a number of metrics. One of the reasons Mitchell Johnson is bowling on average 5km/h faster than he was 2 years ago is that he has improved his strength and conditioning in a number of areas. * South Africa use the same method of bowling to a mannequin as well. One of the benefits of this exercise is that it allows bowlers to focus on certain technical areas of their bowling action (especially rhythm and follow through) without having to worry about countering a batsman smashing the ball back at you. Nothing disrupts your follow through more than having a batsman smashing the ball back at your head. What Joe Dawes is attempting to do here is break down each area of bowling and focus on each area specifically. The fact that the Indian bowlers were not too keen on this approach does not surprise me. It's a lack of consistent work ethic and mental toughness that has plagued India for sometime now (with some notable exceptions). We constantly expect coaches to cater to our needs. If a coach is "not delivering results" then it means that the coach is "wrong" and has to be sacked. This is by no means a defence of Duncan Fletcher (who I agree must go) or Joe Dawes for that matter, but it's a fundamental problem with the mentality of Indian cricket. This goes all the way from the players, right to the very top of the board. This is why India will not be a dominant No.1 team in the foreseeable future. India will be No.1 in the world when we can honestly say that we are the hardest working cricket team in the world. Does anyone here HONESTLY see that happening anytime soon? Until then, we can just continue on the coaching merry-go-round.

[Pagalpanti]

I do think that the Indian cricketers don't care much about their coaches. The work culture is definitely not there' date=' the coaches are not authoritative, they are all tired and the results are for everyone to see.[/quote'] You definitely get the sense of arrogance from Indian bowlers though. Look at Ashwin-Ishant in the PC's, one dreadful tour after another and they have the audacity to say they are bowling as well as they ever have.. its got to with no-accountability factor as well I think.. the way things are run now, players are assured of limit-less chances... while it is good to not have players play for their place every game, there should be a time when they have to either take it seriously or make way for others.

[GoldenSun]

A few general comments here: * Just because players "look fit" doesn't mean that they are. Being skinny and being fit are two different things. Fitness is a vague term that depends on the context. Someone could be aerobically quite fit, but they might only bowl at 115-120km/h because they lack the sufficient strength and power to drive through the crease (this is all assuming that their bowling action is not flawed either). Conversely, someone could look quite strong, or actually be quite strong, but they lack the explosive strength to be able to bowl quickly. Bowling-specific fitness is measured by a number of metrics. One of the reasons Mitchell Johnson is bowling on average 5km/h faster than he was 2 years ago is that he has improved his strength and conditioning in a number of areas. * South Africa use the same method of bowling to a mannequin as well. One of the benefits of this exercise is that it allows bowlers to focus on certain technical areas of their bowling action (especially rhythm and follow through) without having to worry about countering a batsman smashing the ball back at you. Nothing disrupts your follow through more than having a batsman smashing the ball back at your head. What Joe Dawes is attempting to do here is break down each area of bowling and focus on each area specifically. The fact that the Indian bowlers were not too keen on this approach does not surprise me. It's a lack of consistent work ethic and mental toughness that has plagued India for sometime now (with some notable exceptions). We constantly expect coaches to cater to our needs. If a coach is "not delivering results" then it means that the coach is "wrong" and has to be sacked. This is by no means a defence of Duncan Fletcher (who I agree must go) or Joe Dawes for that matter, but it's a fundamental problem with the mentality of Indian cricket. This goes all the way from the players, right to the very top of the board. This is why India will not be a dominant No.1 team in the foreseeable future. India will be No.1 in the world when we can honestly say that we are the hardest working cricket team in the world. Does anyone here HONESTLY see that happening anytime soon? Until then, we can just continue on the coaching merry-go-round.

To validate your claim a bit about the Indians not working hard, I can give you an example of when I went down to the Adelaide Oval during the 08 tour. If I remember correctly, I think it was the 4th test of that series. Punter, Hussey, Clarkey, Binga, and the rest of our team were preparing hard by the means of slip catching practice and working on some fielding drills. The only Indians that were taking the preparations seriously were Sachin Tendulkar, Dravid, Kumble, Laxman(who is a thorn in our side), Sehwag, and Gambhir. The younger chaps like Sreesanth, Harbhajan, Praveen Kumar, Yuvraj, and etc were busy listening to music on their IPods. I was slightly appalled.

[Magneto]

Okay, so we have a bunch of bowlers with limited skills who hate to take instructions and don't train hard as well. No wonder their captain calls them 'brainless' in media sessions. And let's throw out the coach (since we anyway don't know what is happening behind the scenes) and hope that these arrogant, average bowlers who don't like to train much will turn into world beaters the moment the next guy will come. :clap: :clap:

[G_B_]

To validate your claim a bit about the Indians not working hard' date=' I can give you an example of when I went down to the Adelaide Oval during the 08 tour. If I remember correctly, I think it was the 4th test of that series. Punter, Hussey, Clarkey, Binga, and the rest of our team were preparing hard by the means of slip catching practice and working on some fielding drills. The only Indians that were taking the preparations seriously were Sachin Tendulkar, Dravid, Kumble, Laxman(who is a thorn in our side), Sehwag, and Gambhir. The younger chaps like Sreesanth, Harbhajan, Praveen Kumar, Yuvraj, and etc were busy listening to music on their IPods. I was slightly appalled.[/quote'] This means nothing. I mean for all the hard work supposedly Warner took a swipe at Joe root being out till 2am in a bar. Maybe the Indians had already been through the drills. Two of the people you mention, Sehwag and Laxman had big weight issues. Praveen kumar was not part of the test team. I think you might have the dates jumbled up.

[G_B_]

A few general comments here: * Just because players "look fit" doesn't mean that they are. Being skinny and being fit are two different things. Fitness is a vague term that depends on the context. Someone could be aerobically quite fit, but they might only bowl at 115-120km/h because they lack the sufficient strength and power to drive through the crease (this is all assuming that their bowling action is not flawed either). Conversely, someone could look quite strong, or actually be quite strong, but they lack the explosive strength to be able to bowl quickly. Bowling-specific fitness is measured by a number of metrics. One of the reasons Mitchell Johnson is bowling on average 5km/h faster than he was 2 years ago is that he has improved his strength and conditioning in a number of areas. * South Africa use the same method of bowling to a mannequin as well. One of the benefits of this exercise is that it allows bowlers to focus on certain technical areas of their bowling action (especially rhythm and follow through) without having to worry about countering a batsman smashing the ball back at you. Nothing disrupts your follow through more than having a batsman smashing the ball back at your head. What Joe Dawes is attempting to do here is break down each area of bowling and focus on each area specifically. The fact that the Indian bowlers were not too keen on this approach does not surprise me. It's a lack of consistent work ethic and mental toughness that has plagued India for sometime now (with some notable exceptions). We constantly expect coaches to cater to our needs. If a coach is "not delivering results" then it means that the coach is "wrong" and has to be sacked. This is by no means a defence of Duncan Fletcher (who I agree must go) or Joe Dawes for that matter, but it's a fundamental problem with the mentality of Indian cricket. This goes all the way from the players, right to the very top of the board. This is why India will not be a dominant No.1 team in the foreseeable future. India will be No.1 in the world when we can honestly say that we are the hardest working cricket team in the world. Does anyone here HONESTLY see that happening anytime soon? Until then, we can just continue on the coaching merry-go-round.

(1) Bhuvi has actually increased his pace. Ask most people on ICF who saw the NZ tour or even Asia cup and they will tell you Bhuvi has added about 5mph to his bowling in the past few months. That does indicate he has been working hard. Shami has been constant at 135. Aaron has been quick as he has ever been. (2) what works for one team does not mean it will work for another. South africans maybe use it in their domestic system. They are used to it. Indian guys probably dont. If South African training methods were indeed so good they would have produced a world class spinner by now. They have not. (3) As the article mentions they have tried it for nearly 3 months. So its not as if they saw it and said no. (4) This is a hard working unit. Its not been guided probably and the personnel selection by Dhoni has been terrible. Indian ground fielding has been the best it has ever been for generations. Otherwise India would be terrible home and away and would not have won any ICC trophy in the past 6-7 years. I think its very easy for people to say ohh Indians dont work too hard. Its become a myth. When i was growing up my dad kept saying that too many product promotions were the reason for bad performance. Again these are not mutually exclusive things. It was a kop out of an excuse. These guys work hard. They need better methods to suit their needs.

[beetle]

Okay' date=' so we have a bunch of bowlers with limited skills who hate to take instructions and don't train hard as well. No wonder their captain calls them 'brainless' in media sessions. And let's throw out the coach (since we anyway don't know what is happening behind the scenes) and hope that these arrogant, average bowlers who don't like to train much will turn into world beaters the moment the next guy will come. :clap: :clap:[/quote'] Oh dear...the bowlers got tired of playing with Dawes's doll that he got .....bad boys won't play anymore .Lets dump the team and keep the puppet and the mannequin man.

[Detonator]

Okay' date=' so we have a bunch of bowlers with limited skills who hate to take instructions and don't train hard as well. No wonder their captain calls them 'brainless' in media sessions. And let's throw out the coach (since we anyway don't know what is happening behind the scenes) and hope that these arrogant, average bowlers who don't like to train much will turn into world beaters the moment the next guy will come. :clap: :clap:[/quote'] completely agree :agree:

[CG]

The article is crap.We have 4 young bowlers who are not stars and they will do what the are told. @sourav you cannot be more wrong about shami,bhuvi,aaron all of them are hard working and no way arrogant.

[zen]

On the whole I dont think we can blame Dawes for trying you new things. Yes he tried it 3 months ago and it did not work out. At the end of the day the Indian bowlers need to do what they feel comfortable with.

Some good points. But sometimes the players need to be brought out of their comfort zone, esp. when that zone is not helping them to become truly world class (assuming all players can play for any team, someone who can walk in to the top 3 test sides) Btw, guys like Bradman were said to practice on their own and use unconventional methods such as: GQkfyeRvh1M

[Magneto]

The article is crap.We have 4 young bowlers who are not stars and they will do what the are told. @sourav you cannot be more wrong about shami,bhuvi,aaron all of them are hard working and no way arrogant.

So I am guessing they are asked not to come for practice. I don't know how much experience you have with training people, but a lot of students/young professionals are mule-like and stubborn - they will not argue with you, but they will think what they do is always right, and eventually they are very difficult to improve. They are also closed to learning new methods and techniques and are perfectly happy repeating the same mistakes. They don't look arrogant but there not ones who care about taking instructions. On the other hand, some arrogant people will fight with you, but will take instructions well and will keep trying to improve their ability in whatever ways they can. Dawes may be incompetent (you and I would never know) but it's quite clear that india continually has a bunch of bowlers who don't care much about improving their game once they break into the team. They come with promise, show fire initially and go downhill. No amount of coaching can change them; no one Dhoni calls them brainless.

[Magneto]

Oh dear...the bowlers got tired of playing with Dawes's doll that he got .....bad boys won't play anymore .Lets dump the team and keep the puppet and the mannequin man.

Lol. No keep the bad boys and pamper them till they concede 400 runs in ODIs regularly. It's all cool as long as they look cute and bechara. :two_thumbs_up:

[maniac]

So I am guessing they are asked not to come for practice. I don't know how much experience you have with training people, but a lot of students/young professionals are mule-like and stubborn - they will not argue with you, but they will think what they do is always right, and eventually they are very difficult to improve. They are also closed to learning new methods and techniques and are perfectly happy repeating the same mistakes. They don't look arrogant but there not ones who care about taking instructions. On the other hand, some arrogant people with fight with you, but will take instructions well and will keep trying to improve their ability in whatever ways they can. Dawes may be incompetent (you and I would never know) but it's quite clear that india continually has a bunch of bowlers who don't care much about improving their game once they break into the team. They come with promise, show fire initially and go downhill. No amount of coaching can change them; no one Dhoni calls them brainless.

Not applicable for everyone......Guys like Ishant and Irfan have been criticised/accused for over listening to anyone and everyone and ruin their game. Times like that we could have used a good coach as both players had talent . But I see where you are coming from....R.P,Sree,Munaf just gave up. Zak is a big prima donna now but to be honest,his biggest success came after he decided to work hard on hsi game during his English county stint. So there should be a little bit of initiative on both sides and we have been let down either way.

[Magneto]

Not applicable for everyone......Guys like Ishant and Irfan have been criticised/accused for over listening to anyone and everyone and ruin their game. Times like that we could have used a good coach as both players had talent . But I see where you are coming from....R.P,Sree,Munaf just gave up. Zak is a big prima donna now but to be honest,his biggest success came after he decided to work hard on hsi game during his English county stint. So there should be a little bit of initiative on both sides and we have been let down either way.

You see, again listening to anyone and everyone is quite brainless isn't it? I don't think people like Kohli and Pujara (and also Rahane) are listening to anyone and everyone. Professional sportspersons at this level should be able to figure out what advice works for them and what doesn't.

[beetle]

Lol. No keep the bad boys and pamper them till they concede 400 runs in ODIs regularly. It's all cool as long as they look cute and bechara. :two_thumbs_up:

Oh c'mon ...don't you see what this is. A sympathy wave created for an incompetent coach .Just write an article about how the reporter didn't see the bowlers use the all problem solving mannequin and put all fault at the feet of the bowlers. Another one about how The fat one could be a soft target....don't you get it. It is a counter wave being created to keep these two on for longer.