Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Chakdephatte]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

If a cricket mad nation, with atleast 12 frontline pacers bowling 140 k+, can't develop 3 or 4 pacers who have control.and execution in T20s, then it is a massive massive systemic fault.

 

Do people give up when their children do poorly at school  ?  They put in double the effort and a lot of thought to set things right and many such initial underperformers have stellar careers in later life.

 

It is happening in Indian cricket because very few people in the Indian cricket fraternity are bothered about the pace of a bowler. They just take whoever is decently passable at this point in time without thinking about his ceiling. They are least bothered about developing a pacer with potential high ceiling. 

 

Are Bumrah, Siraj, and Shami in the 12? Because they are playing, and as long as they are performing, should be playing.

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

 

Did they drop Prasidh after a change of management? Aren't Umran and Umran in India A team? Then what's are you complaining about? They are doing only what you want.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

If a cricket mad nation, with atleast 12 frontline pacers bowling 140 k+, can't develop 3 or 4 pacers who have control.and execution in T20s, then it is a massive massive systemic fault.

 

Do people give up when their children do poorly at school  ?  They put in double the effort and a lot of thought to set things right and many such initial underperformers have stellar careers in later life.

 

It is happening in Indian cricket because very few people in the Indian cricket fraternity are bothered about the pace of a bowler. They just take whoever is decently passable at this point in time without thinking about his ceiling. They are least bothered about developing a pacer with potential high ceiling. 

 

no one has given up they are being fast tracked through india -A 

Now its upto their hard work . Giving up means asking them to slog their arses for few seasons how great domestic numbers, instead they are being rewarded despite playing hardly much domestic 

 

People are bothered which why they are fast tracked in system. They do know they lack pace in bowling attack 

 

As far i remember prasidh is backed after poor series in WI-ENG-ZIMB. He is currently ahead in ODI setup then thakur-bhuvi-chahar.................

 

Same wud have done by every country , Naseem shah 2 saal legues men khel ke apni skill set improve karke aaya 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[singhvivek141]

43 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

We can...if we segregate the bowlers as per the opposition + conditions

 

Bumrah + Shami + Siraj is a must if we're playing Test in Aus/Eng/NZ/SA + 1 new seam bowling allrounder + Jadeja.

 

However we can play only 1 of the seniors when playing in

 

WI/Zimbabwe/Ireland/Afghanistan etc and use 2 new fast bowlers + a new seam bowling allrounder.

 

Straight away we have 3 openings (2 new pacers + 1 seam bowling allrounder)...who in an year can mature and go up to a level.

 

In India/SL/Bangladesh we can go with 1 senior + 1 new bowler or 2 senior + 1 new bowler combo...rest will be managed by Axar/Jaddu/Chahal/Kuldeep Yadav/Sundar

Edited October 28, 2022 by singhvivek141

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Are Bumrah, Siraj, and Shami in the 12? Because they are playing, and as long as they are performing, should be playing.

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

 

Did they drop Prasidh after a change of management? Aren't Umran and Umran in India A team? Then what's are you complaining about? They are doing only what you want.

 

 

Talking about T20Is.

 

Bumrah is the only established quick pacer we have had in the last 12 years in this format. 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

no one has given up they are being fast tracked through india -A 

Now its upto their hard work . Giving up means asking them to slog their arses for few seasons how great domestic numbers, instead they are being rewarded despite playing hardly much domestic 

 

People are bothered which why they are fast tracked in system. They do know they lack pace in bowling attack 

 

As far i remember prasidh is backed after poor series in WI-ENG-ZIMB. He is currently ahead in ODI setup then thakur-bhuvi-chahar.................

 

Same wud have done by every country , Naseem shah 2 saal legues men khel ke apni skill set improve karke aaya 

 

 

Not talking about giving up nowadays or trying nowadays.

 

We have never really focused on developing 140 k+ pacers with T20 skills ever.

 

Our focus on pace has been primarily in tests and to some extent on ODIs. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not talking about giving up nowadays or trying nowadays.

 

We have never really focused on developing 140 k+ pacers with T20 skills ever.

 

Our focus on pace has been primarily in tests and to some extent on ODIs. 

In the past who were our 140k bowlers 

 

Umesh-ishant-varun - all terrible t20 bowlers

Shami - has been a struggle in t20 

Bumrah - came through 

Hardik - all rounder 

Nehra - got back in team people will urge his age which shud never be the case but will not look he had skills for t20  

Avesh given a good run - his speed do drop on fuller length 

Siraj - a huge sample of his international and IPL domestic t20 numbers goes against him. Although i love him but such cases become subjective choices for captain.  

Khaleel - good prospect but he isnt someone who can trouble opposition with pace. 

Saini played few but injury and limitations in the format went against him 

 

Reality is the pacers who has shown t20 skills set in IPL and have been consistent with it have mostly gotten chances and havent been someone in high speed. 

Dont think we have missed out on anyone. Lets not forget in kohli-shastri era no one got backed. 

All these young ones now have to show consistency in 2nd season. Arshdeep have been rewarded so its not that they wont be . 

Next t20 wc has 2 yrs , their is a lot of competition and they ll have to to perform to be in race. Few may get backed considering conditions but all wont . Next WC is in Wi where variation will have a big big role so thats the area they ll need to work and bowling on slower wkts . Options will be choosen keeping this in mind be it batting or bowling

 

[vishalvirsingh]

correct me if I am wrong Pacers that are in reckoning now -(apart from Bumrah , Shammi, bhuvi, Arshdeep , not writing harshal as I trust that he will fade away in this world cup itself.) 

 

Note- i have made a note of 10/11 pacers who BCCI -Chetan and team are considering and we can make out their interest as these bowlers are picked in India B/ India C teams. this is for all the three formats as Bumrah's wont play for next 6 Months and later he will come back slowly. Shammi may only play in TESTS and some ODI's. ARSHDEEP will become a fixture for odi and t20. Bhuvi may only play T20 and may not be picked in odi too.

 

 

1. Siraj-130 to 149k
2. Umraan- 130 to 157K
3. Prasidh Krishna - 130 to 145K ( he was upto 150 K last year but now upto 145K but lots of bounce)
4. Kuldeep sen- 130 to 149K 
5. Avesh Khan- 130 to 143K ( now his pace has reduced)
6. Mukesh chowdhry- 130 to 145K
7. Navdeep saini- right arm 132 to 150K
8. Mohsin khan- left arm 130 to 145k
9. Yash dayal- left arm 130 to 145k
10. mukesh kumar( right arm trundler) and OR arzan nagwas walla ( left arm trundler)

11. Karthik Tyagi..i have put him as 11th  bcos I do not think BCCI selectors are considering him in the next 10 as of today.

 

 

Please provide your comments- if you think bcci is considering some one else in the first 10 apart from the one's i have mentioned.

 

Note- I am trying to READ what BCCI Selectors are thinking as the top 10 apart from bhuvi /shammi/arsh/bumrah. idea is that top 3 out of 4 will play little due to fitness issues and arshdeep and the rest 10 will get opportunities gallore and they just need to capture those opportunities.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In the past who were our 140k bowlers 

 

Umesh-ishant-varun - all terrible t20 bowlers

Shami - has been a struggle in t20 

Bumrah - came through 

Hardik - all rounder 

Nehra - got back in team people will urge his age which shud never be the case but will not look he had skills for t20  

Avesh given a good run - his speed do drop on fuller length 

Siraj - a huge sample of his international and IPL domestic t20 numbers goes against him. Although i love him but such cases become subjective choices for captain.  

Khaleel - good prospect but he isnt someone who can trouble opposition with pace. 

Saini played few but injury and limitations in the format went against him 

 

Reality is the pacers who has shown t20 skills set in IPL and have been consistent with it have mostly gotten chances and havent been someone in high speed. 

Dont think we have missed out on anyone. Lets not forget in kohli-shastri era no one got backed. 

All these young ones now have to show consistency in 2nd season. Arshdeep have been rewarded so its not that they wont be . 

Next t20 wc has 2 yrs , their is a lot of competition and they ll have to to perform to be in race. Few may get backed considering conditions but all wont . Next WC is in Wi where variation will have a big big role so thats the area they ll need to work and bowling on slower wkts . Options will be choosen keeping this in mind be it batting or bowling

 

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

[vishalvirsingh]

6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Pace does matter.

that is the biggggg reason why we could beat PAK...had shaheen bowled 138 to 147K- no chance our Kohli/hardik would have attacked him this big and had they attacked, they would have got out.

 

I considered Shaheen would compete with Bumrah but shaheen is way behind.............

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

Coz at the end results matter and process work is what IPL and A tours are for. No one expects comes a fully pro ready made peak player, they all improve with time. But atleast players have to be at a certain level that a team can keep backing you . No team can back a player who starts impacting results in negative way or brings negative value to the team. So its just not pace u have to what value a certain player brings to the team . Thats why i keep saying phases , if someone can give u option in more phases or control or even extra value with bat it becomes easy for team to show more faith .  

 

We already have good pool and players are being send on A tour. Now bcci shud allow them to play some leagues but thats also one can do. An international team has to keep playing current players , winning games and create backup for roles. They have a larger picture so they can do just this much. Its easier for sides that lack establish player to blood in new player not for a top side like india where after established player most spots has so much competition. Same was the case with Aus in 2000s , back then it was easy for us to blood in young players as compare to now 

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

And what is the result there too?

Let the dust settle one more time

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

that is the biggggg reason why we could beat PAK...had shaheen bowled 138 to 147K- no chance our Kohli/hardik would have attacked him this big and had they attacked, they would have got out.

 

I considered Shaheen would compete with Bumrah but shaheen is way behind.............

Shaheen was bowling into pads and at times short

Kohli would have belted him even if he had boled 150+

Naseem shah was bowling 145+ at perth still was getting hit by Zim batsmen,there is an art with it

Most of the SC fast bowlers get carried away by conditions and bowl rubbish in these conditions it was like Paks game against WI in 2015 WC

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But atleast players have to be at a certain level that a team can keep backing you . No team can back a player who starts impacting results in negative way or brings negative value to the team. So its just not pace u have to what value a certain player brings to the team . Thats why i keep saying phases , if someone can give u option in more phases or control or even extra value with bat it becomes easy for team to show more faith .  

1. What is the certain level where team can back someone, does picking up a 5ver in Irani Trophy counts ?...as the bowler who did that was leapfrogged by a line length trundler in the Indian Team race.

2. Secondly, talking about phases....which phase Avesh or Harshal are useful for ? and do they provide an extra value with bat ?
Atleast Thakur and Chahar give you decent PP+Mid phase + Batting ability...what does Avesh or Harshal offers ?
Bhuvi who was regarded as an all phase bowler, now has strictly became a PP bowler....he doesn't provide any value with bat, a poor fielder..and bowling him in death is just a travesty even against tailenders.

The present T20I bowlers are not champs in any means, IPL has been severly limited in providing us the judgement of bowlers based on stats. Awana, Sakariya, Kaul, Sandeep, Unadkut...so many bowlers who made their name in IPL failed in international arena. If we talk about Umesh, Aaron, Shami we should also talk about them as well, more so considering the fact that the above mentioned names became a sensation due to IPL, while the latter mentioned names never had the T20 expertise, but still has given some memorable wins in Internationals (albiet the format is different).

[vvvslaxman]

So we can't see 24 slow balls :(

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

1. What is the certain level where team can back someone, does picking up a 5ver in Irani Trophy counts ?...as the bowler who did that was leapfrogged by a line length trundler in the Indian Team race.

 

 

where u dont harm ur team as simple as that. 

Get over this trundler vs speedster - it shud be effective vs non effective . We have already gone through this despite pakistan bowling so many 140+ bowls opposition seamers have done better . 

 

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

2. Secondly, talking about phases....which phase Avesh or Harshal are useful for ? and do they provide an extra value with bat ?
Atleast Thakur and Chahar give you decent PP+Mid phase + Batting ability...what does Avesh or Harshal offers ?
Bhuvi who was regarded as an all phase bowler, now has strictly became a PP bowler....he doesn't provide any value with bat, a poor fielder..and bowling him in death is just a travesty even against tailenders.

 

 

Avesh was an all phase

Harshal was 2 phase....harshal does provide with bat 

Thakur is not a good t20 bowler at any level so fails at 1st job

 

Bhuvi has had few bad series which has kind of spoiled for his otherphases tht can happen to anyone imagine if that happens to other which will and how much will they leak then. Nortje and rabada to have had a terrible year but humko bhuvi hi dikhta jiski sirf 2 series kharab gayi hai

 

Also as i said bhuvi at his worst also wont leak much on most days. 

 

Even with harshal and avesh ur talking when they have hd bad games, guys already leaking at 9 at IPL imagine what will happen to them intheir bad games

 

10 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

The present T20I bowlers are not champs in any means, IPL has been severly limited in providing us the judgement of bowlers based on stats. Awana, Sakariya, Kaul, Sandeep, Unadkut...so many bowlers who made their name in IPL failed in international arena. If we talk about Umesh, Aaron, Shami we should also talk about them as well, more so considering the fact that the above mentioned names became a sensation due to IPL, while the latter mentioned names never had the T20 expertise, but still has given some memorable wins in Internationals (albiet the format is different).

Who are these champs bowlers in t20 ?? 

[Suhaan]

21 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Exactly this is the problem ,i dont want to see just "effective " cricket whereas you dont mind it.Given our conditions we dont really need 140k guys ,spinners and batsmen will do ,you dont even need fielders as csk have shown.

Itna bhi mat lelo

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Exactly this is the problem ,i dont want to see just "effective " cricket whereas you dont mind it.Given our conditions we dont really need 140k guys ,spinners and batsmen will do ,you dont even need fielders as csk have shown.

we need guys who understand this format. 

High pace hard length will work anywhere in world , I dnt wanna judge someone on basis of speed be it above or below 140 . I want players who know how to bowl in this format and have right skillset for this format, speed is just one skill (great if someone has it) i wont overlook other skills (just becoz someone lack speed, coz everyone will lack something infact more) neither speed will turn bad bowling into good. 

 

First shortlist all the good ones and then pick an attack acc to conditions n oppositions . I find it baffling that thinking starts and ends at speed- their is much more to it then speed. 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

35 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

First shortlist all the good ones and then pick an attack acc to conditions n oppositions . I find it baffling that thinking starts and ends at speed- their is much more to it then speed. 

 

 

 

And I find it baffling that we can't develop 4 T20 pacers who have T20 skills and execution ability, understanding of this format as well as 145 k speed.

 

Why can't we have it all, given our huge pacer pool. !!!

 

I now understand why Indians were happy with bullock carts (  It was supposedly effective ) while some other countries felt the need for cars, invented and developed it and then moved on to fast cars. While we were happy with the Ambassador till the 1980s.

Edited October 29, 2022 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

 

Thats like saying good fielding works anywhere. but is that so ? In australia where the outfields are slow and vast you need guys to chase it down and throw it back properly,makes a huge difference.but in India we dont really need it,so fielders are less important.

 

Fielding is important very important  and it works everywhere . Fielding doesnt include just outfielding it includes inner circle, catching too 

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Pace is fun to watch ,why do you find it so baffling?It's like watching a proper cover drive for a single vs an edge going for a boundary, which one would you prefer? There is place for both ,i dont think it's that hard to understand.

 

 

 

Its fun to watch for fans but for team its about effectiveness

I have no issues with high pace , i love it but i cant be stuck on that. You have to do with whatever best is avl. What i find baffling is why is no one looking beyond pace- effectiveness, matchups, roles 

 

Cover drive vs Edge is about control vs non control - Edge wont come off all time so edge isnt an effective thing most times. U gotta go for effective 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

And I find it baffling that we can't develop 4 T20 pacers who have T20 skills, understanding of this format as well as 145 k speed.

 

Why can't we have it all, given our huge pacer pool. !!!

 

I now understand why Indians were happy with bullock carts (  It was supposedly effective ) while some other countries felt the need for cars, invented and developed it and then moved on to fast cars. While we were happy with the ambassador till the 1980s.

coz no one has it all , every team lacks somewhere even pakistan want great backfoot players but they dont have it................they want high s/r batsman but unfortunately babar-rizwan are their best choices they dont have livingstone. Yes they have some great talent coming up but they gotta wait till that talent is ready

 

Same is our case- build an attack and till the time its ready just do with whatever best is avl 

 

 

Sabko Archer-bumrah-wood/nortje/shaheen/rauf/bhuvi inka dream team chahiye but sab fanatsy men acha lagta hai , in reality u gotta work with whatever is avl and every team is doing that just not us . 

 

 

We already have a huge pool of options when it comes to t20 but most are work in progress and we have lost quite a few due to injuries too . Its such a harsh format that u just cant throw such raw products in the name of pace