Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, the don said:

Haris Rauf is the best fast bowler in t20s, nobody is ready to have that conversation.

Yahaan hamari samasya hi samapt nahi ho rahi...aur tumhe Pakistani bowlers ko bhi ghusana hai.

Thoda time wait kar le bhai. 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

You know no cricketer is perfect, no matter how good a skill you have, execution will always have issues that's where you need something extra like extra pace to offset the error in execution. 

No one is perfect but the diff in someone good and raw is massive 

Rauf was ready and good when he started playing so PAk backed him and he got better. U can back such a guy coz he is a certain level that he wont hurt his team much plus he gives a lot of value in phases unlike umran of kuldeep .

Kuldeep sen was dropped by RR coz he was leaking at almost 14 and when mccoy came he was around 8 at death, so calculate the diff it made. Team will choose whats best for them 

 

At this point they have such bad days that a team struggles specially a team like India who doesnt have extra bowling options . 

 

Umran if he cuts down his leakage on bad days will be easily backed . Coz his good days are match winning but bad days are match loosing , if his bad days become avg u have great current value 

People often ask why SRH back bhuvi when they have tyagi- erre bhai bhuvi apne worst se worst season men kabhi 8 ki eco se run nahin diya...so why wont they. Guys like prasidh-saini in their best seasons have such avg numbers and that guy in his worst is not harming the team 

 

Current value matters a lot

 

England didnt give continue run to wood till he became better in t20. 1-2-1 aise game milte the 

Aussies are not backing riley meredith , instead they have gone to kane richardson

Even WI or RR beyond a point gave up oshane thomas

England also went for willey, curran , woakes then going for mills 

 

No one expects 5-6 eco but cut down the leak on bad coz that match loosing . Everyone will have bad days specially in t20 but make atleast have them less or reduce the damage on those days. 

No player is bigger then team that they ll carry such problem 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Sreesanth lacked control. He too was a swing bowler in the end. 

wahi to main control-execution 

swing/seam/turn/bounce/pace/slower one ye sab ka koi matalb nahin agar sahi thikane pe naa pade 

[singhvivek141]

20 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

one game, he was bad in 80% other games . His career of 10 games just has two good game and one very avg game . 9 out of his 10 games were in SENA. 

In final he leaked at 11 whereas game was under 8 RR 

 

No one shud ever take Sreesanth name when it comes to white ball cricket specially t20. He almost ruined us in 2011 final and 2007 t20 Wc final too . 

1 game men to rahane bhi kya khela tha 2015 Wc against SA 

 

He bowled well in our Pakistan ODI tour of 2005...where India won the series 4-1 despite loosing the first game...took 4 wickets in the last match. Could have taken more if not for the dropped catches (I recall 3-4).

 

In the first T20 match against Pakistan as well in 2007 T20 WC....he bowled fantastic 2 deliveries and helped end the match in tie (which we won by bowl out).

 

During that period of 2004-2007 we gave chance to many bowlers like Munaf, RP, Sree, Balaji....they all had their moments but none of them could take their career beyond a level due to one or the other reasons.

Even Zak was missing for good 3-4 years before making a comeback courtesy of County Cricket.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, the don said:

UAE main they were winning these close games against afg and nz, more choking than anything but yes, horribly unfit batting for Australia.

its conditions 

SL -WI batsman also become better when its subcontinent but when it comes to Aus u need diff skillset 

SL bowlers become attacking in subcontinent same with Shadab-NAwaz but not the same story in Aus (So their is a window of 8 overs) now if the batsman isnt giving them cushion of runs it becomes a problem . Our team have done well in Aus in t20 generally becoz our batting gives our bowling cushion and same defensive spinners like Ashwin now becomes a problem for opposition coz they arent giving runs in high run game. Same pakistan batsman can put 180 + plus in subcontinent and their spinners then under pressure are nightmare to face 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

He bowled well in our Pakistan ODI tour of 2005...where India won the series 4-1 despite loosing the first game...took 4 wickets in the last match. Could have taken more if not for the dropped catches (I recall 3-4).

 

In the first T20 match against Pakistan as well in 2007 T20 WC....he bowled fantastic 2 deliveries and helped end the match in tie (which we won by bowl out).

 

During that period of 2004-2007 we gave chance to many bowlers like Munaf, RP, Sree, Balaji....they all had their moments but none of them could take their career beyond a level due to one or the other reasons.

Even Zak was missing for good 3-4 years before making a comeback courtesy of County Cricket.

2 balls in 24 balls or one series in entire are not enough na . His white ball career looks bad coz he wasnt a good in white ball. RP singh was very good 

At some point everyone catches get dropped and on some days ull get cheap wkts, it all balances it out 

[singhvivek141]

49 minutes ago, kruiser said:

if you have quality, you can win with 5 spinners and zero fast bowlers also. 

That didn't happen even in 70's as well..where Eknath Solkar and Gavaskar were our new ball bowler.

 

Spinners utility is limited in majority of conditions outside subcontinent...wrist spinners might find some turn but finger spinners will have hard time.

[express bowling]

23 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

wahi to main control-execution 

swing/seam/turn/bounce/pace/slower one ye sab ka koi matalb nahin agar sahi thikane pe naa pade 

 

 

If a cricket mad nation, with atleast 12 frontline pacers bowling 140 k+, can't develop 3 or 4 pacers who have control.and execution in T20s, then it is a massive massive systemic fault.

 

Do people give up when their children do poorly at school  ?  They put in double the effort and a lot of thought to set things right and many such initial underperformers have stellar careers in later life.

 

It is happening in Indian cricket because very few people in the Indian cricket fraternity are bothered about the pace of a bowler. They just take whoever is decently passable at this point in time without thinking about his ceiling. They are least bothered about developing a pacer with potential high ceiling. 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by express bowling

[Chakdephatte]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

If a cricket mad nation, with atleast 12 frontline pacers bowling 140 k+, can't develop 3 or 4 pacers who have control.and execution in T20s, then it is a massive massive systemic fault.

 

Do people give up when their children do poorly at school  ?  They put in double the effort and a lot of thought to set things right and many such initial underperformers have stellar careers in later life.

 

It is happening in Indian cricket because very few people in the Indian cricket fraternity are bothered about the pace of a bowler. They just take whoever is decently passable at this point in time without thinking about his ceiling. They are least bothered about developing a pacer with potential high ceiling. 

 

Are Bumrah, Siraj, and Shami in the 12? Because they are playing, and as long as they are performing, should be playing.

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

 

Did they drop Prasidh after a change of management? Aren't Umran and Umran in India A team? Then what's are you complaining about? They are doing only what you want.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

If a cricket mad nation, with atleast 12 frontline pacers bowling 140 k+, can't develop 3 or 4 pacers who have control.and execution in T20s, then it is a massive massive systemic fault.

 

Do people give up when their children do poorly at school  ?  They put in double the effort and a lot of thought to set things right and many such initial underperformers have stellar careers in later life.

 

It is happening in Indian cricket because very few people in the Indian cricket fraternity are bothered about the pace of a bowler. They just take whoever is decently passable at this point in time without thinking about his ceiling. They are least bothered about developing a pacer with potential high ceiling. 

 

no one has given up they are being fast tracked through india -A 

Now its upto their hard work . Giving up means asking them to slog their arses for few seasons how great domestic numbers, instead they are being rewarded despite playing hardly much domestic 

 

People are bothered which why they are fast tracked in system. They do know they lack pace in bowling attack 

 

As far i remember prasidh is backed after poor series in WI-ENG-ZIMB. He is currently ahead in ODI setup then thakur-bhuvi-chahar.................

 

Same wud have done by every country , Naseem shah 2 saal legues men khel ke apni skill set improve karke aaya 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[singhvivek141]

43 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

We can...if we segregate the bowlers as per the opposition + conditions

 

Bumrah + Shami + Siraj is a must if we're playing Test in Aus/Eng/NZ/SA + 1 new seam bowling allrounder + Jadeja.

 

However we can play only 1 of the seniors when playing in

 

WI/Zimbabwe/Ireland/Afghanistan etc and use 2 new fast bowlers + a new seam bowling allrounder.

 

Straight away we have 3 openings (2 new pacers + 1 seam bowling allrounder)...who in an year can mature and go up to a level.

 

In India/SL/Bangladesh we can go with 1 senior + 1 new bowler or 2 senior + 1 new bowler combo...rest will be managed by Axar/Jaddu/Chahal/Kuldeep Yadav/Sundar

Edited October 28, 2022 by singhvivek141

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Are Bumrah, Siraj, and Shami in the 12? Because they are playing, and as long as they are performing, should be playing.

 

So, we cannot develop more than two bowlers at a time. By playing dead rubbers and when the trio gets injured.

 

Did they drop Prasidh after a change of management? Aren't Umran and Umran in India A team? Then what's are you complaining about? They are doing only what you want.

 

 

Talking about T20Is.

 

Bumrah is the only established quick pacer we have had in the last 12 years in this format. 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

no one has given up they are being fast tracked through india -A 

Now its upto their hard work . Giving up means asking them to slog their arses for few seasons how great domestic numbers, instead they are being rewarded despite playing hardly much domestic 

 

People are bothered which why they are fast tracked in system. They do know they lack pace in bowling attack 

 

As far i remember prasidh is backed after poor series in WI-ENG-ZIMB. He is currently ahead in ODI setup then thakur-bhuvi-chahar.................

 

Same wud have done by every country , Naseem shah 2 saal legues men khel ke apni skill set improve karke aaya 

 

 

Not talking about giving up nowadays or trying nowadays.

 

We have never really focused on developing 140 k+ pacers with T20 skills ever.

 

Our focus on pace has been primarily in tests and to some extent on ODIs. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not talking about giving up nowadays or trying nowadays.

 

We have never really focused on developing 140 k+ pacers with T20 skills ever.

 

Our focus on pace has been primarily in tests and to some extent on ODIs. 

In the past who were our 140k bowlers 

 

Umesh-ishant-varun - all terrible t20 bowlers

Shami - has been a struggle in t20 

Bumrah - came through 

Hardik - all rounder 

Nehra - got back in team people will urge his age which shud never be the case but will not look he had skills for t20  

Avesh given a good run - his speed do drop on fuller length 

Siraj - a huge sample of his international and IPL domestic t20 numbers goes against him. Although i love him but such cases become subjective choices for captain.  

Khaleel - good prospect but he isnt someone who can trouble opposition with pace. 

Saini played few but injury and limitations in the format went against him 

 

Reality is the pacers who has shown t20 skills set in IPL and have been consistent with it have mostly gotten chances and havent been someone in high speed. 

Dont think we have missed out on anyone. Lets not forget in kohli-shastri era no one got backed. 

All these young ones now have to show consistency in 2nd season. Arshdeep have been rewarded so its not that they wont be . 

Next t20 wc has 2 yrs , their is a lot of competition and they ll have to to perform to be in race. Few may get backed considering conditions but all wont . Next WC is in Wi where variation will have a big big role so thats the area they ll need to work and bowling on slower wkts . Options will be choosen keeping this in mind be it batting or bowling

 

[vishalvirsingh]

correct me if I am wrong Pacers that are in reckoning now -(apart from Bumrah , Shammi, bhuvi, Arshdeep , not writing harshal as I trust that he will fade away in this world cup itself.) 

 

Note- i have made a note of 10/11 pacers who BCCI -Chetan and team are considering and we can make out their interest as these bowlers are picked in India B/ India C teams. this is for all the three formats as Bumrah's wont play for next 6 Months and later he will come back slowly. Shammi may only play in TESTS and some ODI's. ARSHDEEP will become a fixture for odi and t20. Bhuvi may only play T20 and may not be picked in odi too.

 

 

1. Siraj-130 to 149k
2. Umraan- 130 to 157K
3. Prasidh Krishna - 130 to 145K ( he was upto 150 K last year but now upto 145K but lots of bounce)
4. Kuldeep sen- 130 to 149K 
5. Avesh Khan- 130 to 143K ( now his pace has reduced)
6. Mukesh chowdhry- 130 to 145K
7. Navdeep saini- right arm 132 to 150K
8. Mohsin khan- left arm 130 to 145k
9. Yash dayal- left arm 130 to 145k
10. mukesh kumar( right arm trundler) and OR arzan nagwas walla ( left arm trundler)

11. Karthik Tyagi..i have put him as 11th  bcos I do not think BCCI selectors are considering him in the next 10 as of today.

 

 

Please provide your comments- if you think bcci is considering some one else in the first 10 apart from the one's i have mentioned.

 

Note- I am trying to READ what BCCI Selectors are thinking as the top 10 apart from bhuvi /shammi/arsh/bumrah. idea is that top 3 out of 4 will play little due to fitness issues and arshdeep and the rest 10 will get opportunities gallore and they just need to capture those opportunities.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In the past who were our 140k bowlers 

 

Umesh-ishant-varun - all terrible t20 bowlers

Shami - has been a struggle in t20 

Bumrah - came through 

Hardik - all rounder 

Nehra - got back in team people will urge his age which shud never be the case but will not look he had skills for t20  

Avesh given a good run - his speed do drop on fuller length 

Siraj - a huge sample of his international and IPL domestic t20 numbers goes against him. Although i love him but such cases become subjective choices for captain.  

Khaleel - good prospect but he isnt someone who can trouble opposition with pace. 

Saini played few but injury and limitations in the format went against him 

 

Reality is the pacers who has shown t20 skills set in IPL and have been consistent with it have mostly gotten chances and havent been someone in high speed. 

Dont think we have missed out on anyone. Lets not forget in kohli-shastri era no one got backed. 

All these young ones now have to show consistency in 2nd season. Arshdeep have been rewarded so its not that they wont be . 

Next t20 wc has 2 yrs , their is a lot of competition and they ll have to to perform to be in race. Few may get backed considering conditions but all wont . Next WC is in Wi where variation will have a big big role so thats the area they ll need to work and bowling on slower wkts . Options will be choosen keeping this in mind be it batting or bowling

 

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

[vishalvirsingh]

6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Pace does matter.

that is the biggggg reason why we could beat PAK...had shaheen bowled 138 to 147K- no chance our Kohli/hardik would have attacked him this big and had they attacked, they would have got out.

 

I considered Shaheen would compete with Bumrah but shaheen is way behind.............

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

Coz at the end results matter and process work is what IPL and A tours are for. No one expects comes a fully pro ready made peak player, they all improve with time. But atleast players have to be at a certain level that a team can keep backing you . No team can back a player who starts impacting results in negative way or brings negative value to the team. So its just not pace u have to what value a certain player brings to the team . Thats why i keep saying phases , if someone can give u option in more phases or control or even extra value with bat it becomes easy for team to show more faith .  

 

We already have good pool and players are being send on A tour. Now bcci shud allow them to play some leagues but thats also one can do. An international team has to keep playing current players , winning games and create backup for roles. They have a larger picture so they can do just this much. Its easier for sides that lack establish player to blood in new player not for a top side like india where after established player most spots has so much competition. Same was the case with Aus in 2000s , back then it was easy for us to blood in young players as compare to now 

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

You are just looking at the end results.

 

A lot of behind the scene work could have been put in to increase this pool as well as develop this pool better for T20s. 

And what is the result there too?

Let the dust settle one more time

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

that is the biggggg reason why we could beat PAK...had shaheen bowled 138 to 147K- no chance our Kohli/hardik would have attacked him this big and had they attacked, they would have got out.

 

I considered Shaheen would compete with Bumrah but shaheen is way behind.............

Shaheen was bowling into pads and at times short

Kohli would have belted him even if he had boled 150+

Naseem shah was bowling 145+ at perth still was getting hit by Zim batsmen,there is an art with it

Most of the SC fast bowlers get carried away by conditions and bowl rubbish in these conditions it was like Paks game against WI in 2015 WC