Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

There's an obvious reason. We didn't have that kind of talent. Awana and Sudeep Tyagi are the only one I can remember bowling well. It Shami, Umesh, Aaron's weakest format. Ishant and Shreesanth were not good in ODIs either.

 

Since Bumrah, bowlers are trying to bowl quicker. Both Khaleel and Avesh were touching 135-144 as teens but both slowed down significantly. All other good bowlers are injury prone, it happens at 20-23. Once they get stronger, we will get a pool of pacers playing.

Awana became nervous in his first series against England, dropped couple of catches and then got hit by Morgan, thereafter dropped never to be picked again.
Sudeep Tyagi's loss shows incompetence of BCCI...never worked on his conditioning and a 140k+ bowler turned into 125kph

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

And Harshal is a failure in internationals...then what's the reason of persisting with him ? 
Are we so resource deprived that we will keep on playing a failure just because we "fear" that his replacement might be worse (based on IPL) ? 

 

Coz he did well in intial games and struggled mostly post injury so they backed him , avesh didnt do well at all 

also their arent death options avl 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Arshdeep is also doing better with new ball, so what's Bhuvi's utility here...a 10 year veteran has no confidence while bowling yorkers. Arshdeep will go for runs sometime in death...and "no confidence in yorker" kumar will chicken out his burden to Shami & Pandya.

 

Arshdeep akela 20 over dalega ??

Jaake pichle do match dekh le pata chal jayega bhuvi ka utility 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Thakur's international stats are better than Harshal & Avesh...IPL don't matter here. And he's a bowler who can bat like Chahar, unlike Jadeja or Pandya who are now batter first and then bowler. As a bowler, Thakur's stats make him better than Harshal & Avesh ( again I am making clear than I am just using stats for arguments, I am not a fan of Thakur but his utility is higher in current situation).

 

thakur and harshal stats are similar- one has better eco one has better avg

thats when u take bigger sample to take a call, thakur anyways have no strong phase

 

So even stats thakur has no strong case 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

 

umran kitna khela...3 match bas...why not 10-15 like Avesh, when he outbowled Avesh in current IPL.

 

Coz avesh ka experience aur perfomance zyaada tha aur usne apne best pe 3 phase diye hai 

Umran bhi 3 match men flop hi hua, even in his great ipl he had quite few match loosing spells for his side 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

In terms of experience, we backed Arshdeep in Aus na ?, Harshal bhi to first time Aus aya hai ?...
We should have backed Siraj and others as well, but we were so deprived and scared that we went to the length of bringing back Umesh and Shami instead of taking punt on young fast bowlers whose potential is higher than Harshal or Avesh. 

 

Siraj ruined his own chances this IPL 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Aur fir kya karoge jab IPL numbers wale bhi failure prove honge...you will revert to others or will stick to the same failure just because their IPL numbers are better ?

 

Depend karta hai

Avesh confidence was shattered so no point sticking with him now

Harshal cudnt get the sip post his injury so thats where u can back him and since he did well in intial games he has that extra 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Numbers ki baat is ok for us, but selectors need to have an eye beyond that...I see them failing continuously into that...which gives the impression that we don't have enough fast bowlers. Which is horribly wrong.
 

they have an eye ahead thats why umran-kuldeep are rewarded with A games despite no record or have played a bare minimum game in domestic in past

Had they gone with just numbers for rewarding India-A , dono 2-3 saal tak domestic men ghiste 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Then what's the basis of it,just your judgement?Then why make such deal out of analytics if there are "hundreds of things " to take into consideration.

coz analytics' is a part of it and how come conditions , matchups , conditions not under analytics 

These guys arent hunch picks they have proven themselves at some point 

 

how do u think a player is pinned down to be backed , their is a lot of analytics involved including conditions, matchups, performances , team combination 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

You just said you consider hundreds of things ,which only you would know of ,so that means it's your own hunch,you are not grounding yourself either.

My hunch also need a logic na 

If i was backing kohli for this wc logic was his range against pace and record in aus . Hunch was he ll gain his form 

If i was backing ashwin or bhuvi , it had their eco rates logic in aus . Bhuvi had 2 bad series but the hunch says back ur logic they wud do good. 

 

I cant have hunch of iyer scoring runs in aus when logic goes against it but when opposition bowler fall into his favourable matchups u can go for it. Ultimately logic needs to back ur call. 

 

So it is a lot of factor, every selection has a lot of factors. 

[singhvivek141]

9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

also their arent death options avl 

May I know whom you regard as death options ? 

 

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Arshdeep akela 20 over dalega ??

Jaake pichle do match dekh le pata chal jayega bhuvi ka utility 

 

So in 2 matches, where he did decently is the parameter. While for Umran, the matches where he flopped in IPL is the metric inspite of performing like a superstar when he gets right.
If I go back even further to Asia Cup and series against Australia, you'll give the excuse that he was being judged for some failed matches....won't you think selectors are being harsh on a new guy based on few matches failure, when he can run through opposition on his days.
Bhuvi on his bad days gave 52 in 4 and 39 in 3 overs...will Umran do worse than that ?

 

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

thakur and harshal stats are similar- one has better eco one has better avg

thats when u take bigger sample to take a call, thakur anyways have no strong phase

 

So even stats thakur has no strong case 

 

 

T20I
Thakur
Bowling : 25 Matches, 33 Wickets, 23.39 Avg, 9.15 Economy
Batting : 25 Matches, 69 Runs, 23.00 Avg, 181 SR

Harshal
Bowling : 23 Matches, 26 Wickets, 26.96 Avg, 9.20 Economy
Batting : 77 Runs, 12.XX Avg, 135 SR
 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

May I know whom you regard as death options ? 

 

Bumrah - harshal - arshdeep 

Siraj only did well one season at death so as of now under doubt 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

So in 2 matches, where he did decently is the parameter. While for Umran, the matches where he flopped in IPL is the metric inspite of performing like a superstar when he gets right.

 

 

U didnt read carefully his poor games ref was for his bad games that are so bad that it ends up hurting his team 

 

All his 3 international games are 11+ eco thats too bad . If you are comparing to someone like harshal who also have had bad games dont worry even he ll get dropped soon if that continues. If team decided to back harshal is coz has done well to and they are giving him respite post his injury and the games where everyone was carted. But if he keeps perfomaring badly he ll be discarded soon. 

 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

If I go back even further to Asia Cup and series against Australia, you'll give the excuse that he was being judged for some failed matches....won't you think selectors are being harsh on a new guy based on few matches failure, when he can run through opposition on his days.

 

Yea so i said he had to bad series and so did hardik and many others. Rabada nortje has been terrible for their teams throughout the year

 

Sabke bure series ayenge, he won us series against England and Sa wo to sab bhul gaye 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bhuvi on his bad days gave 52 in 4 and 39 in 3 overs...will Umran do worse than that ?

 

How many 50 runs + have bhuvi given in his entire career - 1 or 2 times and its a big career 

Umran gave 56 against england , already had one 50+ whereas bhuvi 1-2 entire career . Umran will beat that record within 10 games 

 

Umran did gave 50+ runs in IPL quite a few times so yea he cud have done worse way worse . 

 

 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

T20I
Thakur
Bowling : 25 Matches, 33 Wickets, 23.39 Avg, 9.15 Economy
Batting : 25 Matches, 69 Runs, 23.00 Avg, 181 SR

Harshal
Bowling : 23 Matches, 26 Wickets, 26.96 Avg, 9.20 Economy
Batting : 77 Runs, 12.XX Avg, 135 SR
 

Ok thakur got a bit ahead in international but then the man has no strong phase . The stats ur showing is not a major diff . Harshal number took a beating after his injury too 

 

If you take IPL sample then harshal makes a difference. Added his phases value.

[Adamant]

Those people who think pace is fun to watch never really get into why it is so. 

 

Is Wahab Riaz fun to watch? - Once in a blue moon 

Is Shawn Tait fun to watch - again Once in a blue moon (ek hi over ka video dikhaate hai hamesha) 

 

Umesh Yadav fun to watch? 

Varun aaron? 

 

Mark wood for me is absolutely the worst bowler to watch- no rhythm, ghatiya action. 

 

Pace is fun to watch when it's combined with control and good length. 

 

For example - 

Shoaib 

Brett Lee

Johnson

 

And let's be real, we can't produce them

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

How about kl,Rohit,axar,dk,shami?

KL - one of the best players of pace bowling and good t20 record. 

  

Rohit - his batting post captaincy is great. Again one of the best players of geniune pace n bounce. He loves aussie conditions . 

 

Axar - better batter against SLA and leg spin then jaddu. Better t20 bowler then jaddu and bowls in PP which jaddu cudnt. Blessing in disguise , that he came for jaddu. He is the option to counter SLA

 

DK - he covers hardik weakness of high pace hard length. His s.r in last 3 overs are damn good. His record against premeir fast bowler like archer, stRc, bumrah is too good. He is a range player and complements hardik the power player . Came off after a great IPL too. With pant not performing in t20 he gets ahead . If you watch all net session report every reporter have reported that DK has looked the most hard working in nets with virat. So logic and hunch says he ll produce a knock that wud be remembered. 

 

Shami - not a fan of his selection but they went for exp since in aus its about finding the right length. Ill back him in optus for sure coz optus is about new ball and harshal record against lefties is not that great whereas shami is decent agains to lefties . But I wud have gone for siraj 

[Adamant]

I would watch Vernon Philander over Wahab Riaz anyday of the week. 

[Adamant]

Also Jhulan Goswami over Avesh Khan

[Chakdephatte]

3 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Those people who think pace is fun to watch never really get into why it is so. 

 

Is Wahab Riaz fun to watch? - Once in a blue moon 

Is Shawn Tait fun to watch - again Once in a blue moon (ek hi over ka video dikhaate hai hamesha) 

 

Umesh Yadav fun to watch? 

Varun aaron? 

 

How these guys watch test cricket? Must be tough. Pujara leaving 100 balls in not fun to watch, let's take Ishan Kishan and Samson.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, Adamant said:

Also Jhulan Goswami over Avesh Khan

 

ye kaisa comparison hai bhai ?

[Chakdephatte]

1 minute ago, Adamant said:

Also Jhulan Goswami over Avesh Khan

 

Now he is kept under 'trundler' category.

[Mesky99]

13 minutes ago, Adamant said:

I would watch Vernon Philander over Wahab Riaz anyday of the week. 

Really in t20 cricket? Tests yhh but even then depending on conditions, Vernon could not do much in Asia, morkel with his pace and bounce caused enough trouble, mark wood has both control and rhythm just that he ain't a defensive bowler,.looks to attack but that's not being wayward.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

For example - 

Shoaib 

Brett Lee

Johnson

 

And let's be real, we can't produce them

 

Shane Bond, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel, Ryan Harris, Javagal Srinath, Curtley Ambrose, Allan Donald, Waqar Younis they all are fast bowlers who successful careers.
Do you not like them ?

Pace don't mean bowling like a retard with one ball on to the stump and remaining 5 balls on the leg or at 8th-9th stump. Riaz was so brainless that he couldn't hit the stumps when Steve Smith move away from the wickets, except for his 5 fer against India and that spell against Watto, no one remembers him.
Shaun Tait is much more than that "one over"..he was menacing in 2007 ODI WC...he blew away NZ in 2007 tour.

Many here are assuming that "fast bowler" means running like a retard with no control whatsoever....and that's not the purpose of Pace.
 

Edited October 29, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

And pant,won't you get him in the 11

crunch player hai crunch time pe usko bhi layenge ,crunch games tak pahuch to jaane do 

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

crunch player hai crunch time pe usko bhi layenge ,crunch games tak pahuch to jaane do 

 

Confusing comment. Will you drop somebody for him in Semis? Thinking about Zampa/Rashid maybe, but Shadab was better than these.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

Confusing comment. Will you drop somebody for him in Semis? Thinking about Zampa/Rashid maybe, but Shadab was better than these.

Yes 

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Shane Bond, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel, Ryan Harris, Javagal Srinath, Curtley Ambrose, Allan Donald, Waqar Younis they all are fast bowlers who successful careers.
Do you not like them ?

 

Kahan hain Shane Bond, Curtly Ambrose, Waqar Younis? 

If you have someone with their level potential, point him out please. 

 

This is exactly what I am saying, don't know why you needed to reiterate. 

 

Pace along with skills and control is very rare and we don't have anyone of that sort apart from the ones we already know (Bumraj, Siraj) 

[Suhaan]

4 hours ago, Adamant said:

Kahan hain Shane Bond, Curtly Ambrose, Waqar Younis? 

Readymade milega kya?

Even those names would not have been of same magnitude if they played today in modern t20 world

Fast bowling(bowling in general)is toughest job now than before equally becomes task of TM to persist and layout plans for potentials

You need to have maximum number of guys near ready now as every year we have an ICC event