Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

This was the tour based on which wood was picked for the 2019 wc,You probably would have left him out.

me keeping him out or not wud depend on 100 things- conditions, combination and options avl . I dont remeber what options england had avl at that time. Its about selecting best option and as far i remember they didnt have great options back then and their best bowlers was an imported product 

[singhvivek141]

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Those guys have even won u games including harshal in those overs. Even in harshal worst games he still had good last over 

Check his last over vs Aus and SA

 

Not hurting means like umran on his bad days he is so bad that its unbreable, yes harshal have been bad too but he has 2 season behind him and some indian games so he ll get extra backing, obv he has more control . 

 

Kuldeep sen was so damaging for RR that they dropped him mid season

 

So, Harshal who's breaking records after records with his crap bowling is still fine....but not Kuldeep who also in his limited chances gave a match winning 4 wkt haul and won Rajasthan in his first match bowling against Stoinis in final over...you see the irony.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

bhuvi has done death duties for long just had 2 bad series. 

Then get over ur myth

go check india vs WI- kolkata game. two set batsman , heavy dew and he just gave 4 runs at death and saved the game. HAve done many times in IPL

 

Just not happening in last few series 

 

Just 2 bad series failure can't downgrade someone so much that a youngster who hasn't even completed 1 yr is trusted more than him.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

What and when has thakur done anything in t20 at any level ??

Harshal - avesh were good at IPL level and harshal intial games were good for india thats how he sealed his spot 

 

IF shardul batting is the reason then he has to compete with all rounder not bowler 

 

Stats are in his favour...so why this bhed bhav with him. IPL me bhi Thakur has always been a decent performer...and batting is his advantage....as his skills are better than Harshal and Avesh. 
Why he has to suffer and fight with Pandya or Jadeja for a place...ye to wahi baat hui, ki ladka padhne me achcha hai in NIT College...utha ke IIT me daal do.

 

27 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

harshal has had few good games at start , avesh has been terrible 

 

Their is no guarantee that others wont specially who have been worse then them in IPL , they can have even a more rough time . 

 

 

That's the point, guarantee kisi ki bhi nahi hai. But we are using IPL parameters everywhere for selecting the bowlers, we have automatically assumed that as someone who leak runs in IPL will leak runs in internationals as well...and in this process we are not giving chances to the bowlers who have a higher ceiling to improve.

If we can waster 15-20 matches on Avesh and got 0 as a result...why not throw the same window to Umran, Kuldeep and others..judge them once they cross that barrier.

I gave example of Sakariya, Unadkut etc for the same reason, they performed in IPL, got selected and sucked internationals as well. It's very clear that IPL is not a correct parameter, it just helps to identify the bowlers who have potential, thereafter BCCI need to pick those bowlers, hone their skills and prepare them.

But what we're doing is bringing out trash product one after the other, only to revert to "not in contentions" like Shami and Umesh simply because all our experiments with trundlers failed.

An out of context answer...but we wasted Bumrah for 3-4 years by not choosing him in Tests because we thought as he's an IPL product, he will struggle in Tests.
Only when he was given the opportunity, he blew away everyone showing he's just not a T20 specialist. Now, he's a much better Test bowler as compared to T20's.

Edited October 29, 2022 by singhvivek141

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

So, Harshal who's breaking records after records with his crap bowling is still fine....but not Kuldeep who also in his limited chances gave a match winning 4 wkt haul and won Rajasthan in his first match bowling against Stoinis in final over...you see the irony.

 

Kuldeep is inexperienced an was leaking at 14 in death, mccoy came gave around 8 in death . Massive diff , any team will drop for 6 run per over diff 

Harshal has been a match winner for RCB at death and has done well for india in intial games 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Just 2 bad series failure can't downgrade someone so much that a youngster who hasn't even completed 1 yr is trusted more than him.

 

Coz arshdeep currently is doing better and bhuvi is lacking confidence when it comes to yorkers .Also bhuvi strength is top so why not use it 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Stats are in his favour...so why this bhed bhav with him. IPL me bhi Thakur has always been a decent performer...and batting is his advantage....as his skills are better than Harshal and Avesh. 
Why he has to suffer and fight with Pandya or Jadeja for a place...ye to wahi baat hui, ki ladka padhne me achcha hai in NIT College...utha ke IIT me daal do.

 

 

Thakur only has done well in UAE rest has been crap in IPL

he has to compete with pandya-jaddu coz hs bowling is not strong in this format. Deepak chahar bowling is strong so he doesnt have to 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

That's the point, guarantee kisi ki bhi nahi hai. But we are using IPL parameters everywhere for selecting the bowlers, we have automatically assumed that as someone who leak runs in IPL will leak runs in internationals as well...and in this process we are not giving chances to the bowlers who have a higher ceiling to improve.

 

Jo inexperience aur raw uski pitne ke chances zyaada hote hai isiliye

Obv its t20 we can only take IPL numbers , why wud anyone take red ball numbers

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

If we can waster 15-20 matches on Avesh and got 0 as a result...why not throw the same window to Umran, Kuldeep and others..judge them once they cross that barrier.

 

itna match match ki sab pe lagao. Kuldeep anyways didnt do anything to earn it. Kuldeep was dumped by his IPL side so dont expect national selectors to take a risk with him

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

I gave example of Sakariya, Unadkut etc for the same reason, they performed in IPL, got selected and sucked internationals as well. It's very clear that IPL is not a correct parameter, it just helps to identify the bowlers who have potential, thereafter BCCI need to pick those bowlers, hone their skills and prepare them.

 

Didnt umran get picked for IPL too

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

But what we're doing is bringing out trash product one after the other, only to revert to "not in contentions" like Shami and Umesh simply because all our experiments with trundlers failed.

no they were bought back coz of their exp in Aus. In Aus hardest is to figure out right length or else ull travel so safe is to go for experienced guy 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

You would have looked at his odi stats and picked maybe David Willey

As i said i dont remeber their combination back then or even david willey form, fitness 

As mentioned i consider 100 things 

 

I have backed kohli in last 2 yrs 

I hve backed guys like pandya, KL, pant in their absolute worse so my choices are way above numbers . Its many many factors 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Those are batsmen and are easier to judge in modern cricket and pandya has no alternates in India.

so ?? the idea is back your horse whom u have selected after considering 100 things not flip flop ur plan

If wood was in my plan he wud have remain in my plan. I didnt change my team even when bhuvi harshal had few bad series, wo to bowler hai na 

[Suhaan]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Bro, I was talking about the end result of having just one 145 k pacer, Bumrah, who is an automatic choice in our T20I Squad.

 

All the others are deemed as not good enough for T20Is or are actually not good enough for T20Is.

 

My point is that, if we had put in a focused effort of developing 140 k+ quicks for the last 1 year atleast, we could have easily got 2 of 3 more.

 

Siraj is a good case in point. Has all the requisite T20 skills and the pace but dropped for the World Cup preparatory matches becausd of a poor IPL. Could he not have been guided a bit and played in bilateral T20Is and made World Cup ready instead of giving up on him so easily !!

I understood what you were saying

It was sarcasm for trundler aashiqs

[Chakdephatte]

15 hours ago, express bowling said:

Talking about T20Is.

 

Bumrah is the only established quick pacer we have had in the last 12 years in this format. 

 

There's an obvious reason. We didn't have that kind of talent. Awana and Sudeep Tyagi are the only one I can remember bowling well. It Shami, Umesh, Aaron's weakest format. Ishant and Shreesanth were not good in ODIs either.

 

Since Bumrah, bowlers are trying to bowl quicker. Both Khaleel and Avesh were touching 135-144 as teens but both slowed down significantly. All other good bowlers are injury prone, it happens at 20-23. Once they get stronger, we will get a pool of pacers playing.

[singhvivek141]

19 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Kuldeep is inexperienced an was leaking at 14 in death, mccoy came gave around 8 in death . Massive diff , any team will drop for 6 run per over diff 

Harshal has been a match winner for RCB at death and has done well for india in intial games 

And Harshal is a failure in internationals...then what's the reason of persisting with him ? 
Are we so resource deprived that we will keep on playing a failure just because we "fear" that his replacement might be worse (based on IPL) ? 

 

24 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Coz arshdeep currently is doing better and bhuvi is lacking confidence when it comes to yorkers .Also bhuvi strength is top so why not use it 

 

Arshdeep is also doing better with new ball, so what's Bhuvi's utility here...a 10 year veteran has no confidence while bowling yorkers. Arshdeep will go for runs sometime in death...and "no confidence in yorker" kumar will chicken out his burden to Shami & Pandya.

 

30 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Thakur only has done well in UAE rest has been crap in IPL

he has to compete with pandya-jaddu coz hs bowling is not strong in this format. Deepak chahar bowling is strong so he doesnt have to 

Thakur's international stats are better than Harshal & Avesh...IPL don't matter here. And he's a bowler who can bat like Chahar, unlike Jadeja or Pandya who are now batter first and then bowler. As a bowler, Thakur's stats make him better than Harshal & Avesh ( again I am making clear than I am just using stats for arguments, I am not a fan of Thakur but his utility is higher in current situation).

 

35 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Didnt umran get picked for IPL too

 

no they were bought back coz of their exp in Aus. In Aus hardest is to figure out right length or else ull travel so safe is to go for experienced guy 

Umran kitna khela...3 match bas...why not 10-15 like Avesh, when he outbowled Avesh in current IPL.
In terms of experience, we backed Arshdeep in Aus na ?, Harshal bhi to first time Aus aya hai ?...
We should have backed Siraj and others as well, but we were so deprived and scared that we went to the length of bringing back Umesh and Shami instead of taking punt on young fast bowlers whose potential is higher than Harshal or Avesh. 

 

34 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Jo inexperience aur raw uski pitne ke chances zyaada hote hai isiliye

Obv its t20 we can only take IPL numbers , why wud anyone take red ball numbers

 

 

itna match match ki sab pe lagao. Kuldeep anyways didnt do anything to earn it. Kuldeep was dumped by his IPL side so dont expect national selectors to take a risk with him

 

Aur fir kya karoge jab IPL numbers wale bhi failure prove honge...you will revert to others or will stick to the same failure just because their IPL numbers are better ?

Numbers ki baat is ok for us, but selectors need to have an eye beyond that...I see them failing continuously into that...which gives the impression that we don't have enough fast bowlers. Which is horribly wrong.
 

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

There's an obvious reason. We didn't have that kind of talent. Awana and Sudeep Tyagi are the only one I can remember bowling well. It Shami, Umesh, Aaron's weakest format. Ishant and Shreesanth were not good in ODIs either.

 

Since Bumrah, bowlers are trying to bowl quicker. Both Khaleel and Avesh were touching 135-144 as teens but both slowed down significantly. All other good bowlers are injury prone, it happens at 20-23. Once they get stronger, we will get a pool of pacers playing.

Awana became nervous in his first series against England, dropped couple of catches and then got hit by Morgan, thereafter dropped never to be picked again.
Sudeep Tyagi's loss shows incompetence of BCCI...never worked on his conditioning and a 140k+ bowler turned into 125kph

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

And Harshal is a failure in internationals...then what's the reason of persisting with him ? 
Are we so resource deprived that we will keep on playing a failure just because we "fear" that his replacement might be worse (based on IPL) ? 

 

Coz he did well in intial games and struggled mostly post injury so they backed him , avesh didnt do well at all 

also their arent death options avl 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Arshdeep is also doing better with new ball, so what's Bhuvi's utility here...a 10 year veteran has no confidence while bowling yorkers. Arshdeep will go for runs sometime in death...and "no confidence in yorker" kumar will chicken out his burden to Shami & Pandya.

 

Arshdeep akela 20 over dalega ??

Jaake pichle do match dekh le pata chal jayega bhuvi ka utility 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Thakur's international stats are better than Harshal & Avesh...IPL don't matter here. And he's a bowler who can bat like Chahar, unlike Jadeja or Pandya who are now batter first and then bowler. As a bowler, Thakur's stats make him better than Harshal & Avesh ( again I am making clear than I am just using stats for arguments, I am not a fan of Thakur but his utility is higher in current situation).

 

thakur and harshal stats are similar- one has better eco one has better avg

thats when u take bigger sample to take a call, thakur anyways have no strong phase

 

So even stats thakur has no strong case 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

 

umran kitna khela...3 match bas...why not 10-15 like Avesh, when he outbowled Avesh in current IPL.

 

Coz avesh ka experience aur perfomance zyaada tha aur usne apne best pe 3 phase diye hai 

Umran bhi 3 match men flop hi hua, even in his great ipl he had quite few match loosing spells for his side 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

In terms of experience, we backed Arshdeep in Aus na ?, Harshal bhi to first time Aus aya hai ?...
We should have backed Siraj and others as well, but we were so deprived and scared that we went to the length of bringing back Umesh and Shami instead of taking punt on young fast bowlers whose potential is higher than Harshal or Avesh. 

 

Siraj ruined his own chances this IPL 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Aur fir kya karoge jab IPL numbers wale bhi failure prove honge...you will revert to others or will stick to the same failure just because their IPL numbers are better ?

 

Depend karta hai

Avesh confidence was shattered so no point sticking with him now

Harshal cudnt get the sip post his injury so thats where u can back him and since he did well in intial games he has that extra 

 

9 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Numbers ki baat is ok for us, but selectors need to have an eye beyond that...I see them failing continuously into that...which gives the impression that we don't have enough fast bowlers. Which is horribly wrong.
 

they have an eye ahead thats why umran-kuldeep are rewarded with A games despite no record or have played a bare minimum game in domestic in past

Had they gone with just numbers for rewarding India-A , dono 2-3 saal tak domestic men ghiste 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Then what's the basis of it,just your judgement?Then why make such deal out of analytics if there are "hundreds of things " to take into consideration.

coz analytics' is a part of it and how come conditions , matchups , conditions not under analytics 

These guys arent hunch picks they have proven themselves at some point 

 

how do u think a player is pinned down to be backed , their is a lot of analytics involved including conditions, matchups, performances , team combination 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

You just said you consider hundreds of things ,which only you would know of ,so that means it's your own hunch,you are not grounding yourself either.

My hunch also need a logic na 

If i was backing kohli for this wc logic was his range against pace and record in aus . Hunch was he ll gain his form 

If i was backing ashwin or bhuvi , it had their eco rates logic in aus . Bhuvi had 2 bad series but the hunch says back ur logic they wud do good. 

 

I cant have hunch of iyer scoring runs in aus when logic goes against it but when opposition bowler fall into his favourable matchups u can go for it. Ultimately logic needs to back ur call. 

 

So it is a lot of factor, every selection has a lot of factors. 

[singhvivek141]

9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

also their arent death options avl 

May I know whom you regard as death options ? 

 

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Arshdeep akela 20 over dalega ??

Jaake pichle do match dekh le pata chal jayega bhuvi ka utility 

 

So in 2 matches, where he did decently is the parameter. While for Umran, the matches where he flopped in IPL is the metric inspite of performing like a superstar when he gets right.
If I go back even further to Asia Cup and series against Australia, you'll give the excuse that he was being judged for some failed matches....won't you think selectors are being harsh on a new guy based on few matches failure, when he can run through opposition on his days.
Bhuvi on his bad days gave 52 in 4 and 39 in 3 overs...will Umran do worse than that ?

 

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

thakur and harshal stats are similar- one has better eco one has better avg

thats when u take bigger sample to take a call, thakur anyways have no strong phase

 

So even stats thakur has no strong case 

 

 

T20I
Thakur
Bowling : 25 Matches, 33 Wickets, 23.39 Avg, 9.15 Economy
Batting : 25 Matches, 69 Runs, 23.00 Avg, 181 SR

Harshal
Bowling : 23 Matches, 26 Wickets, 26.96 Avg, 9.20 Economy
Batting : 77 Runs, 12.XX Avg, 135 SR
 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

May I know whom you regard as death options ? 

 

Bumrah - harshal - arshdeep 

Siraj only did well one season at death so as of now under doubt 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

So in 2 matches, where he did decently is the parameter. While for Umran, the matches where he flopped in IPL is the metric inspite of performing like a superstar when he gets right.

 

 

U didnt read carefully his poor games ref was for his bad games that are so bad that it ends up hurting his team 

 

All his 3 international games are 11+ eco thats too bad . If you are comparing to someone like harshal who also have had bad games dont worry even he ll get dropped soon if that continues. If team decided to back harshal is coz has done well to and they are giving him respite post his injury and the games where everyone was carted. But if he keeps perfomaring badly he ll be discarded soon. 

 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

If I go back even further to Asia Cup and series against Australia, you'll give the excuse that he was being judged for some failed matches....won't you think selectors are being harsh on a new guy based on few matches failure, when he can run through opposition on his days.

 

Yea so i said he had to bad series and so did hardik and many others. Rabada nortje has been terrible for their teams throughout the year

 

Sabke bure series ayenge, he won us series against England and Sa wo to sab bhul gaye 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bhuvi on his bad days gave 52 in 4 and 39 in 3 overs...will Umran do worse than that ?

 

How many 50 runs + have bhuvi given in his entire career - 1 or 2 times and its a big career 

Umran gave 56 against england , already had one 50+ whereas bhuvi 1-2 entire career . Umran will beat that record within 10 games 

 

Umran did gave 50+ runs in IPL quite a few times so yea he cud have done worse way worse . 

 

 

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

T20I
Thakur
Bowling : 25 Matches, 33 Wickets, 23.39 Avg, 9.15 Economy
Batting : 25 Matches, 69 Runs, 23.00 Avg, 181 SR

Harshal
Bowling : 23 Matches, 26 Wickets, 26.96 Avg, 9.20 Economy
Batting : 77 Runs, 12.XX Avg, 135 SR
 

Ok thakur got a bit ahead in international but then the man has no strong phase . The stats ur showing is not a major diff . Harshal number took a beating after his injury too 

 

If you take IPL sample then harshal makes a difference. Added his phases value.

[Adamant]

Those people who think pace is fun to watch never really get into why it is so. 

 

Is Wahab Riaz fun to watch? - Once in a blue moon 

Is Shawn Tait fun to watch - again Once in a blue moon (ek hi over ka video dikhaate hai hamesha) 

 

Umesh Yadav fun to watch? 

Varun aaron? 

 

Mark wood for me is absolutely the worst bowler to watch- no rhythm, ghatiya action. 

 

Pace is fun to watch when it's combined with control and good length. 

 

For example - 

Shoaib 

Brett Lee

Johnson

 

And let's be real, we can't produce them

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

How about kl,Rohit,axar,dk,shami?

KL - one of the best players of pace bowling and good t20 record. 

  

Rohit - his batting post captaincy is great. Again one of the best players of geniune pace n bounce. He loves aussie conditions . 

 

Axar - better batter against SLA and leg spin then jaddu. Better t20 bowler then jaddu and bowls in PP which jaddu cudnt. Blessing in disguise , that he came for jaddu. He is the option to counter SLA

 

DK - he covers hardik weakness of high pace hard length. His s.r in last 3 overs are damn good. His record against premeir fast bowler like archer, stRc, bumrah is too good. He is a range player and complements hardik the power player . Came off after a great IPL too. With pant not performing in t20 he gets ahead . If you watch all net session report every reporter have reported that DK has looked the most hard working in nets with virat. So logic and hunch says he ll produce a knock that wud be remembered. 

 

Shami - not a fan of his selection but they went for exp since in aus its about finding the right length. Ill back him in optus for sure coz optus is about new ball and harshal record against lefties is not that great whereas shami is decent agains to lefties . But I wud have gone for siraj 

[Adamant]

I would watch Vernon Philander over Wahab Riaz anyday of the week. 

[Adamant]

Also Jhulan Goswami over Avesh Khan

[Chakdephatte]

3 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Those people who think pace is fun to watch never really get into why it is so. 

 

Is Wahab Riaz fun to watch? - Once in a blue moon 

Is Shawn Tait fun to watch - again Once in a blue moon (ek hi over ka video dikhaate hai hamesha) 

 

Umesh Yadav fun to watch? 

Varun aaron? 

 

How these guys watch test cricket? Must be tough. Pujara leaving 100 balls in not fun to watch, let's take Ishan Kishan and Samson.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, Adamant said:

Also Jhulan Goswami over Avesh Khan

 

ye kaisa comparison hai bhai ?