Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I dont think the speeds were way off. They didn't look visually quick either . 

 

I thought Pordl was quicker than this. That was my impression from around 5 years ago. But that doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

 

1.  Porel and Unadkat definitely look quicker than their domestic speed readings.  

 

2.  Despite being a big speed fan, I have started to question how relevant release speeds are !!    Md. Siraj, bowling 135 k to 141 k, was terrorizing the Aussie batters with intimidating short pitched bowling in the 2nd test, on a slow track. Hurrying them with length balls too. 

 

What happens after pitching is far more relevant to quick bowling unless a yorker is bowled. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by express bowling

[Chakdephatte]

19 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What happens after pitching is far more relevant to quick bowling

 

I was butchered for saying so  Speed guns are 20% of the story.

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

1.  Porel and Unadkat definitely look quicker than their domestic speed readings.  

 

2.  Despite being a big speed fan, I have started to question how relevant release speeds are !!    Md. Siraj, bowling 135 k to 141 k, was terrorizing the Aussie batters with intimidating short pitched bowling in the 2nd test, on a slow track. Hurrying them with length balls too. 

 

What happens after pitching is far more relevant to quick bowling unless a yorker is bowled. 

 

The problem with such bowlers is once they are found-out or there is dip in pace they are easy picking.

Asif/Amir (Pak-intl) are few of the examples, When Amir busted to Intnl. circuit he was high 140 kmph bowler after return he was  in mid 140s but couple of seasons later he was down on his pace and lost the mojo v.soon after that.

 

Same with Asif when bowling mid 130s he was v.good but then couple of injuries and in-out of the team he downed his pace and was not the same bowler.

We can see samething with Cummins when he bowls sub 140s is not that effective but as soon as he gets into 140+ he is different bowler. 

 

Sub 140 Kmph Rabada looks ordinary. In my opinion bowler who looks a threat in sub 140 Kmph have a shorter prime duration unless they can swing and seam in both the directions 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by tapandrun

[MK55]

If you’re bowling accurately at good pace, you’re gonna cause problems. On slow pitches with some up and down bounce or cracks, it’s not easy to face the short ball. Also the batsman isn’t really expecting the short ball on a rank turner. And if the ball seams in, even more difficult. All these factors contribute in making the short ball more effective.

 

Now if u could do all that with extra pace, obviously you’re gonna be even more effective. There’s nothing to suggest that express bowlers, after pitching the ball, their ball reduces speed by more. There’s no optimum speed here. The faster u bowl, the lesser the time to respond unless there’s some weird physics dynamics going on. Yes height contributes to bounce but when it comes to the short ball specifically, I’ve seen skiddy quick bowlers be as lethal if it’s directed well. Difficult to evade. 

In fact during the SA vs Australia tests, they showed a graphic where they were comparing the time it took of Nortje’s delivery to reach the batter vs the rest. There was a stark difference. And Warner these days is a bunny against the short ball. Not sure what kind of bat he uses, but he just seems slow to respond. 

 

I’m surprised, the Australians dint use it more often. They definitely would have created some issues barring Rohit who looks in spectacular form. In fact even Rohit is a compulsive puller so if u place the fielder well, you will be presented with opportunities. 

[SRT100]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

1.  Porel and Unadkat definitely look quicker than their domestic speed readings.  

 

2.  Despite being a big speed fan, I have started to question how relevant release speeds are !!    Md. Siraj, bowling 135 k to 141 k, was terrorizing the Aussie batters with intimidating short pitched bowling in the 2nd test, on a slow track. Hurrying them with length balls too. 

 

What happens after pitching is far more relevant to quick bowling unless a yorker is bowled. 

Having witnessed and been well accustomed to speed guns and Australian pace bowling over the years on TV and the commentary and analysis that comes with it, I can say confidently that once you hit 135+ and esp 140+, if you bowl the right lines and lengths, it will be far more challenging for the batsmen than a 150kmhr bowler that lacks control and has little variation to his repertoire aside from balling fast.

 

I would rather have Siraj over Malik in Tests and ODI's. However I would rather have Malik in T20 over Siraj. The simple difference being is that in longer formats, batsmen can take their time and choose which deliveries of Malik to attack. In T20 cricket, batsmen are not afforded the luxury of time, Malik just needs to get one delivery on line or have control with it to generate a wicket.

[MK55]

2 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

The problem with such bowlers is once they are found-out or there is dip in pace they are easy picking.

Asif/Amir (Pak-intl) are few of the examples, When Amir busted to Intnl. circuit he was high 140 kmph bowler after return he was  in mid 140s but couple of seasons later he was down on his pace and lost the mojo v.soon after that.

 

Same with Asif when bowling mid 130s he was v.good but then couple of injuries and in-out of the team he downed his pace and was not the same bowler.

We can see samething with Cummins when he bowls sub 140s is not that effective but as soon as he gets into 140+ he is different bowler. 

 

Sub 140 Kmph Rabada looks ordinary. In my opinion bowler who looks a threat in sub 140 Kmph have a shorter prime duration unless they can swing and seam in both the directions 

 

 

 

 

Good points. Would like to add, the margin of error (in terms of where the bowler wants to pitch) is slightly more if he's faster. Thats not to say that you're allowed to be wayward. It just means that the lesser time the batsman gets to face, works in the bowler's favor. 
And Rabada is a good example. He still bowls in good areas like before and has got the same variations, its just that instead of doing it at 145k, he's now doing those at 137-138k. 
 

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

1.  Porel and Unadkat definitely look quicker than their domestic speed readings.  

 

2.  Despite being a big speed fan, I have started to question how relevant release speeds are !!    Md. Siraj, bowling 135 k to 141 k, was terrorizing the Aussie batters with intimidating short pitched bowling in the 2nd test, on a slow track. Hurrying them with length balls too. 

 

What happens after pitching is far more relevant to quick bowling unless a yorker is bowled. 

release speed does have a direct bearing on speed after pitching though. release speeds of 140+ are desirable, and so are other attributes like bounce, heavy balls, bouncers, yorkers, control, etc

[Suhaan]

7 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

 

I was butchered for saying so  Speed guns are 20% of the story.

Good you are alive

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Vijy said:

release speed does have a direct bearing on speed after pitching though. release speeds of 140+ are desirable, and so are other attributes like bounce, heavy balls, bouncers, yorkers, control, etc

 

 

1. But the release speeds we see on TV are measured by Speed Guns ... and they very very inaccurate. Only high speed cameras are accurate but we don't have access to those data (  Cricviz has them but rarely publish them )

 

 

 

2.  The deception factor after pitching is very important too.

 

Let's say pacer A releases the ball at 140 k average speed and it reaches the batter at 115 k average speed 

 

Pacer B releases the ball at 136 k average speed but it reaches the batter at 115 k average speed too, because Pacer B has great seam position and is very skiddy off the deck. 

 

So, in this case, the batsman is hurried by the deliveries of the 2 pacers reaching them at 115 k ( marginally more for pacer A due to his higher air speed ) ... but additionally, for Pacer B, he is deceived and hurried by the skid off the deck.

 

But Speed Gun will show that Pacer B is slower.

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by express bowling

[express bowling]

12 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

The problem with such bowlers is once they are found-out or there is dip in pace they are easy picking.

Asif/Amir (Pak-intl) are few of the examples, When Amir busted to Intnl. circuit he was high 140 kmph bowler after return he was  in mid 140s but couple of seasons later he was down on his pace and lost the mojo v.soon after that.

 

Same with Asif when bowling mid 130s he was v.good but then couple of injuries and in-out of the team he downed his pace and was not the same bowler.

We can see samething with Cummins when he bowls sub 140s is not that effective but as soon as he gets into 140+ he is different bowler. 

 

Sub 140 Kmph Rabada looks ordinary. In my opinion bowler who looks a threat in sub 140 Kmph have a shorter prime duration unless they can swing and seam in both the directions 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, MK55 said:

 

Good points. Would like to add, the margin of error (in terms of where the bowler wants to pitch) is slightly more if he's faster. Thats not to say that you're allowed to be wayward. It just means that the lesser time the batsman gets to face, works in the bowler's favor. 
And Rabada is a good example. He still bowls in good areas like before and has got the same variations, its just that instead of doing it at 145k, he's now doing those at 137-138k. 
 

 

 

1.  I am not advocating picking sub 140 k pacers by choice.  Have always opposed it.

 

But we have a situation now where ALL the younger 140 k Pacers, with any FC experience, are injured. 

 

So, what do we do  ??

 

Rather than choosing either the floaty medium pacers like Mukesh Kumar and Co. or the Quicks without sny FC experience, it is better to choose the tall and bouncy pacers bowling in the 130s and having the fitness to bowl in FC.

 

 

2.  The Indian cricket fraternity have always ignored the height and bounce factors of pacers, barring the 1990s.

 

But these are very important factors too,  Rather than having an attack of 3 short 140 k quicks, I would rather have 2 such 140 k quicks and a tall bouncy pacer, even if he is 135 k.

 

But ideally, I want tall and bouncy 140 k quicks like Tyagi, Sen, Prasidh and Mohsin. Atleast 2 of them should be in the playing 11.  But all of them keep getting injured.  

Edited February 21, 2023 by express bowling

[speedracer]

35 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

1. But the release speeds we see on TV are measured by Speed Guns ... and they very very inaccurate. Only high speed cameras are accurate but we don't have access to those data (  Cricviz has them but rarely publish them )

 

 

 

2.  The deception factor after pitching is very important too.

 

Let's say pacer A releases the ball at 140 k average speed and it reaches the batter at 115 k average speed 

 

Pacer B releases the ball at 136 k average speed but it reaches the batter at 115 k average speed too, because Pacer B has great seam position and is very skiddy off the deck. 

 

So, in this case, the batsman is equally hurried by the deliveries of the 2 pacers reaching them at 115 k ... but additionally, for Pacer B, he is deceived and additionally hurried by the skid off the deck.

 

But Speed Gun will show that Pacer B is slower.

 

 

 

Release point matters. Point as in where the bowler hurls the ball from.

 

Bumrahs release point is like 24 cm from the centre line. Compare that to Cummins who is around 10 cm away from the centre line. 

 

Bumrahs 140 will be a whole lot faster than a tullah like raufs 145 for example. It reaches the batsmen quicker. They are hurried due to positional issues.

[speedracer]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

1.  I am not advocating choosing sub 140 k pacers by choice.  Have always opposed it.

 

But we have a situation now where ALL the younger 140 k Pacers, with any FC experience, are injured. 

 

So, what do we do  ??

 

Rather than choosing either the floaty medium pacers like Mukesh Kumar and Co. or the Quicks without sny FC experience, it is better to choose the tall and bouncy pacers bowling in the 130s. 

 

 

2.  The Indian cricket fraternity have always ignored the height and bounce factors of pacers, barring the 1990s.

 

But these are very important factor too,  Rather than having an attack of 3 short 140 k quicks, I would rather have 2 such 140 k quicks and a tall bouncy pacer, even if he is 135 k.

 

But ideally, I want tall and bouncy 140 k quicks like Tyagi, Sen, Prasidh and Mohsin. Atleast 2 of them should be in the playing 11.  But all of them keep getting injured.  

100% we need one tall fella to do the hard yards for bounce too.

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, speedracer said:

100% we need one tall fella to do the hard yards for bounce too.

 

Ideally 3 tall, hit the deck quicks in our pacer pool who are 140 k+ too.

[express bowling]

@sarchasm once rightly said that teams like Australia, who have and had lethal pace attacks for decades, have a clear idea about what their ideal pacer is .... Their ideal pacer is Tall, Bouncy and Quick  ( and skilful of course )(  and if they dont find it, they look for atleast 2 of the 3 factors ) 

 

Look.at our choice of T20I pacers to understand what I am saying ....

 

1.  Mavi ... Lacks Height, bounce snd extra pace. ( None of the above 3 factors. )

 

2.  Arshdeep ... Lacks pace, bounce off length .. has height. ( Just 1 of the above 3 factors ) 

 

3.  Umran .. Has Express pace .. Lacks height or natural bounce ( 1 of the atove 3 factors ... but that factor is very very strong ) 

 

4.  Mukesh Kumar .. Lacks height, bounce or pace (  None of the above 3 factors )

 

So ... not a single pacer with all 3 factors 

 

Not a single pacer with 2 of the 3 factors.

 

2 pacers with none of the 3 factors.

 

This is poor selection.

Edited February 21, 2023 by express bowling

[Grand_Design]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

@sarchasm once rightly said that teams like Australia, who have and had lethal pace attacks for decades, have a clear idea about what their ideal pacer is .... Their ideal pacer is Tall, Bouncy and Quick  ( and skilful of course )(  and if they dont find it, they look for atleast 2 of the 3 factors ) 

 

Look.at our choice of T20I pacers to understand what I am saying ....

 

1.  Mavi ... Lacks Height, bounce snd extra pace. ( None of the above 3 factors. )

 

2.  Arshdeep ... Lacks pace, bounce off length .. has height. ( Just 1 of the above 3 factors ) 

 

3.  Umran .. Has Express pace .. Lacks height or natural bounce ( 1 of the atove 3 factors ... but that factor is very very strong ) 

 

4.  Mukesh Kumar .. Lacks height, bounce or pace (  None of the above 3 factors )

 

So ... not a single pacer with all 3 factors 

 

Not a single pacer with 2 of the 3 factors.

 

2 pacers with none of the 3 factors.

 

This is poor selection.

Bowlers with high release heights and high release speeds are extremely rare. 

 

The fastest bowlers have a braced front leg and that usually happens when they have a larger extension at the crease and more forward flexion which compromises release height but generate more pace. 

 

The likes of Jofra  (tall, long limbed and athletic) are extremely rare for combining both both a very high release height and release speed at his best. 

[express bowling]

29 minutes ago, Grand_Design said:

Bowlers with high release heights and high release speeds are extremely rare. 

 

The fastest bowlers have a braced front leg and that usually happens when they have a larger extension at the crease and more forward flexion which compromises release height but generate more pace. 

 

The likes of Jofra  (tall, long limbed and athletic) are extremely rare for combining both both a very high release height and release speed at his best. 

 

There are or have been lots of pacers who are 6'2"+ and 140 k+ 

 

Srinath, Tyagi, Sen, Prasidh, Mohsin from India.

 

Holding,, Croft, Ambrose, Patterson, Bishop, Dillon, Taylor, Gabriel, Joseph from the WI 

 

Gillespie, Johnson,  Cummins, Starc, Pattinson from Australia.

 

Donald, Hayward, Schultz, Morkel, Rabada, Olivier, Nortje from SA 

 

Akram, Riaz, Shaheen from Pakistan 

 

Malcolm, Harmison, Flintoff, Archer from England.

 

Bond, Tickner from NZ.

 

Fernando, Chameera from SL 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tapandrun]

Rightly pointed Mavi and Kumar should not be in the team are not longterm solutions-Short and slow should not be considered for Intl circuits (Mentioned by others as well).

 

Tall and bouncy bowlers are alway preferred as they have ability to pick wkts in any condition apart from where the ball does not rise-up to keens- Strictly talking about Tests, T20s requires different set of skills

 

With all Front liners not available, I would say Ind should  take a leaf out of Pak's book they always prefer fast and younger bowlers over FC performers.

But this requires faith and doing some work with them - Are Ind coaches ready or have skills for that ??

 

Right now (mentioned previously as well) if Ind can leap frog Rana (KKR ), Simarjeet (CSK) and Mayank Yadav will be good idea. All are decently tall have different skill set.

 

In T20s there should be a mix and bowlers with variation should be picked, not saying bowler who bowls slow and slower and consider that a variation. 

Would not want Umran in Test, as his speeds are generation by fast run-up and quick arm speeds, for test you need a bowler who can generate speeds with flow and rhythm so that they can bowl fast in both the innings.

Edited February 21, 2023 by tapandrun

[Grand_Design]

13 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

There are or have been lots of pacers who are 6'2"+ and 140 k+ 

 

Srinath, Tyagi, Sen, Prasidh, Mohsin from India.

 

Holding,, Croft, Ambrose, Patterson, Bishop, Dillon, Taylor, Gabriel, Joseph from the WI 

 

Gillespie, Johnson,  Cummins, Starc, Pattinson from Australia.

 

Donald, Hayward, Schultz, Morkel, Rabada, Olivier, Nortje from SA 

 

Akram, Riaz, Shaheen from Pakistan 

 

Malcolm, Harmison, Flintoff, Archer from England.

 

Bond, Tickner from NZ.

 

Fernando, Chameera from SL 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not talking about heights of bowlers.  Im saying very few bowlers have had a high release (>2.1m) and still bowled 150 +. 

 

Because even for tall bowlers like Starc, the way they generate pace means that the release is a lot lower than it can be. Starc , for instance, can get a lot higher in his release point by shortening his extension at the crease and with minimal forward flexion but he wouldn't have clocked the speeds he did back at his peak. 

[express bowling]

54 minutes ago, Grand_Design said:

Im not talking about heights of bowlers.  Im saying very few bowlers have had a high release (>2.1m) and still bowled 150 +. 

 

Because even for tall bowlers like Starc, the way they generate pace means that the release is a lot lower than it can be. Starc , for instance, can get a lot higher in his release point by shortening his extension at the crease and with minimal forward flexion but he wouldn't have clocked the speeds he did back at his peak. 

 

 

I was talking about 140 k+ pacers who were 6'2" + in the post that you quoted. earlier. This gives the best combo of pace and bounce.

 

And not about maximizing one's release point or bowling 150 k+.

 

A 6'2" or 6'3" pacer will still have a higher release point than the typical 5'8" to 5'11" type pacer we are seeing playing for Team India these days.

[SRT100]

30 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I was talking about 140 k+ pacers who were 6'2" + in the post that you quoted. earlier. This gives the best combo of pace and bounce.

 

And not about maximizing one's release point or bowling 150 k+.

 

A 6'2" or 6'3" pacer will still have a higher release point than the typical 5'8" to 5'11" type pacer we are seeing playing for Team India these days.

Isnt that why Garner was considered one of the most lethal bowlers, his height and bounce.

 

He was 6ft8