Laaloo Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Aren't you from Chennai? Why you want Ashwin to get caught? :hmmm: hes a paki
putrevus Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 It is not even contest, Bhajji is second greatest spinner India has ever produced and unlike Ashwin he did produce for India overseas.
div Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 ^ Ashwin already has better record in Australia and England.
Gollum Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 It is not even contest' date=' [b']Bhajji is second greatest spinner India has ever produced and unlike Ashwin he did produce for India overseas. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
putrevus Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: :giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle:
putrevus Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 ^ Ashwin already has better record in Australia and England. no Indian spinner will have any glittering record overseas, what matters most is has the spinner produced goods when fast bowlers and batsmen have delivered. Bhajji on top of my head played vital role in test wins in NZ, WI, SA and SL. When Ashwin produces goods in at least one test win overseas let us talk.
cric_fan Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Two mediocre spin bowlers- but Harrrbhajan shades it.
putrevus Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 When guys like Ali , Lyon and not for forget Duminy outbowl them in test matches that should tell the quality of both Ashwin and Jadeja.
sensible-indian Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 When guys like Ali ' date=' Lyon and not for forget Duminy outbowl them in test matches that should tell the quality of both Ashwin and Jadeja.[/quote'] Ashwin outbowled Lyon by a million miles in India. Not talking about just wickets but line and length and venom. In Aus, do see how BOTH Ashwin and Lyon fared in the 3 tests they played together. Similar average but the difference was that Ashwin had to manage with the most indisciplined pace bowling attack who were leaking runs at 6 rpo. Ashwin also picked up 4 out of 6 wickets in Sydney 2nd innings when the pitch started spinning (Aus declared quickly). That should give us an idea of how he would have done in Adelaide. To say Lyon is outbowling Ashwin is completely untrue. You can check the stats. Moeen Ali outbowled Ashwin agreed but that was more due to the COMPLETE INABILITY of our batsman to play spin bowling (we simply gave up in that England series - made even Jordan look like a legend). Duminy outbowled Ashwin in that Joberg track. That I agree.
sensible-indian Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Two mediocre spin bowlers- but Harrrbhajan shades it. I think Ashwin the way he matured in the Aus tour this time and was flighting the ball in the WC is anything but mediocre. Let's see what the future holds. Won't call Bhajji mediocre either (was a great servant for Indian cricket) but not a legend or anything.
Ironhide Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Harbhajan is a Indian legend with more than 400 Test wickets, Ashwin will have to prove himself for many years to get his name closer to Bhajji.
Ironhide Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Aren't you from Chennai? Why you want Ashwin to get caught? :hmmm: He is a Paki, don't know why Pakis are so ashamed of their nationality, i can understand when they do that in western countries, posing as Indians to avoid negative, terrorist gazes but makes no sense to display such behaviour on a forum.
HippoSucks Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Harbhajan is the better spinner by far in terms of what he has achieved. I can definitely see Ashwin surpassing him (or at least equaling him) in the near future though. Ashwin is definitely a better test batsman than Harbhajan though. Ashwin has played 24 tests and 96 ODIs while Harbhajan has played 101 tests and 229 ODIs.. It is way too early to compare them.
Gollum Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 When guys like Ali ' date=' Lyon and not for forget Duminy outbowl them in test matches that should tell the quality of both Ashwin and Jadeja.[/quote'] Wrong. It tells us about our batsmen's ability to play spin bowling these days. You pit Ashwin and Sir against our batting lineup and I guarantee that they will make these 2 look like Murali and Bedi bowling in tandem. And Ashwin outbowled Lyon as SIF said every single time they have played in the same match.
HippoSucks Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Ashwin outbowled Lyon by a million miles in India. Not talking about just wickets but line and length and venom. In Aus, do see how BOTH Ashwin and Lyon fared in the 3 tests they played together. Similar average but the difference was that Ashwin had to manage with the most indisciplined pace bowling attack who were leaking runs at 6 rpo. Ashwin also picked up 4 out of 6 wickets in Sydney 2nd innings when the pitch started spinning (Aus declared quickly). That should give us an idea of how he would have done in Adelaide. To say Lyon is outbowling Ashwin is completely untrue. You can check the stats. Moeen Ali outbowled Ashwin agreed but that was more due to the COMPLETE INABILITY of our batsman to play spin bowling (we simply gave up in that England series - made even Jordan look like a legend). Duminy outbowled Ashwin in that Joberg track. That I agree. How does being part of a weaker bowling line up makes Ashwin a better bowler than Lyon? I am not saying that he isn't. But if he is a part of a weaker bowling attack, doesn't he have more opportunities to pick up wickets? Of course you have more pressure to pick up wickets and restrain the bowling since the rest of the bowlers are under-performing. But I don't think that is a significant enough factor.
sensible-indian Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Funny thing is that not one person in this forum (who ever called me by my username) called me SI here. It was always SIF. :haha:
sensible-indian Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 How does being part of a weaker bowling line up makes Ashwin a better bowler than Lyon? I am not saying that he isn't. But if he is a part of a weaker bowling attack, doesn't he have more opportunities to pick up wickets? Of course you have more pressure to pick up wickets and restrain the bowling since the rest of the bowlers are under-performing. But I don't think that is a significant enough factor. Bowling for a weak lineup matters. There is a reason why Hadlee is rated so high and Kapil is rated more than what his stats suggest. Murali (if you exclude his action) is rated supremely high for this reason too. Weaker bowling lineup gives you more chances for wickets but your average goes for a toss as you have to come for 1st, 2nd, 3rd spells to pick up the wickets. When you are part of a strong bowling lineup, there will be always a bowler who will pick up the wicket of a batsman who is troubling you or playing you well. For example: If you take 5-160...though you have taken a fifer, your average for that innings is over 30. Now contrast that with 2/30 or 3/75 while all the other bowlers chipping in with wickets. The average for the innings is around 15-25. As for Ashwin's not being supported by pacers in Aus...we saw the matches and what was happening on the other end was ATROCIOUS to say the least. Ashwin would bowl tight overs after overs but the other end would be leaking at 4-5 runs per over. How can any pressure build? 1. Now Ashwin in his FIRST tour to Australia wasn't really good (even though in that tour our batting or pace bowling gave him no scope to perform, his quality of bowling wasn't that good barring an innings here and there). 2. JoBerg was completely Ashwin's fault cos he didn't use scoreboard pressure (even though the pitch was flat). Should have picked up a wicket or two ATLEAST which would have given us a win. But this recent tour of Aus, I find it hard to blame him. In the 3 games both Ashwin and Lyon played together in Aus recently: they both averaged similar with similar SR and economy. You can call it even stevens but the pacers from Australia and India had a huge difference in economy rates. Shami (4 rpo), Yadav (4.62 rpo) and Ishant (3.66) compared to Hazlewood (2.8), Johnson (3.73), Harris (2.67) and Watson (2.89). This is stuff averaged over 3 tests which just goes to show how wayward we were. Now Ashwin didn't have the guile at first in that test series (he had accuracy though) but later on he developed it. I was shocked to see how he was a completely different bowler by the time WC. Flighting, dipping and turning. I have closely followed him in IPL this year and I can tell you he is on to something seriously good. But I will wait till he plays SL and SA (the quality spin playing teams). Before that I don't want to pass judgements as of now. But the way he is turning and looping the ball, I just hope we get decent pitches in SL (and not hopeless flat tracks) for it to be an interesting series.
sensible-indian Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 One thing I have noticed about Ashwin in LOIs. If someone decides to play him off (at the expense of not scoring), they do so quite easily (unless they are really bad in playing spin). In tests, this is not a problem for Ashwin as he has time to work on batsmen but no such luxuries in LOI. Noticed this trend happening with Ashwin in LOI too many times. He is hard to hit but if the opponent decides to not give him the wicket, he finishes a tight spell but isn't able to pick up his wicket (he would have 1 or 2 or rarely 3 wickets for the game but that's it). Gayle did that yesterday night and I was least surprised cos I have seen it happen with Ashwin too many times. As a strike bowler, if he GETS that wicket (at the expense of a few more runs) in LOI, it would be more useful for the captain. Jaddu doesn't have this problem in LOI. If he is in zone, he will pick a flurry of wickets quickly whether the batsmen are trying to defend or attack him.
Gollum Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Agree with SI but in ODIs Ashwin has a totally different role. He generally bowls 5-6 overs in the powerplay/death almost every time and being economical is the key there. His economy rate in ODIs in spite of runrates being at an all time high, 2 new balls,fielding restrictions,weak support etc is pretty impressive. He does the job required in ODIs. Anyways these ODIs are meaningless and in ICC tourneys he always steps up and is economical as well as a strike bowler.
sensible-indian Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 Agree with SI but in ODIs Ashwin has a totally different role. He generally bowls 5-6 overs in the powerplay/death almost every time and being economical is the key there. His economy rate in ODIs in spite of runrates being at an all time high' date= 2 new balls,fielding restrictions,weak support etc is pretty impressive. He does the job required in ODIs. Anyways these ODIs are meaningless and in ICC tourneys he always steps up and is economical as well as a strike bowler. :cantstop: Feel free to call me SIF. Was just something I found funny so I commented.
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