A fast bowler India might have had

[express bowling]

Lee and  Bond swung the ball at 145 k.

 

Swing at high pace is late swing, hence less apparent but much more effective.

[express bowling]

We saw many Indian pacers of the 2000s decade bowl quick for a couple of seasons and then becoming medium pace

 

Like Munaf, VRV, RP Singh, Sreesanth.

 

If speed-guns were not there, many people would have said that they never bowled fast.

 

Fact is, fast bowlers need to be nurtured and groomed, especially in a country like India which lacked fast bowling culture.

 

Let's say someone saw Munaf Patel only in 2010....never saw him bowl 145 k with steep bounce in 2005-06..... and says that he was a trundler who was hyped..... I am sure that is the case with many pacers of the '80s and '90s.

 

The talent was always there....it is a matter of having a fast bowling culture which grooms, motivates and directs the talent to ultimate success.  And that is what is happening in India from 2014.

 

One of the good things the speed-gun has done is that it has shown some self-doubting people that Indians can bowl as fast as others. This belief was totally absent in the '80s and '90s and led to pacers thinking of themselves as 2nd class citizens....which is detrimental to producing confident and good bowlers. This needed to change and has changed.... thankfully.

Edited June 27, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Lee and  Bond swung the ball at 145 k.

 

Swing at high pace is late swing, hence less apparent but much more effective.

yes, ball will swing at that pace too, but at 120-130, you will get highest amount of swing.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

yes, ball will swing at that pace too, but at 120-130, you will get highest amount of swing.

Yes... but moderate and late swing at 140 k + makes it much more difficult for the batsmen.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Yes... but moderate and late swing at 140 k + makes it much more difficult for the batsmen.

and swing needs favorable conditions ever at 120K.

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

and swing needs favorable conditions ever at 120K.

Exactly

[express bowling]

Here is a video of Harvinder Singh bowling in a test match played on a slow and low Indian pitch

 

Just look at the first delivery....how he pushes back Slater with a good length ball and hurries him

 

Then start watching from 12 minutes.... how he bowls a snorter on a slow deck and the next ball on the stumps looks quite quick too.

 

also, he is getting consistent movement  from good areas.  Look at the wicket he took ....video time 11.30

 

I would say, we wasted this bowler

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

Certainly more than just being sharp! That delivery at 13:00 was a snorter! Would have been more than a handful in Australia, NZ and SA!

[Vijy]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

Here is a video of Harvinder Singh bowling in a test match played on a slow and low Indian pitch

 

Just look at the first delivery....how he pushes back Slater with a good length ball and hurries him

 

Then start watching from 12 minutes.... how he bowls a snorter on a slow deck and the next ball on the stumps looks quite quick too.

 

also, he is getting consistent movement  from good areas.  Look at the wicket he took ....video time 11.30

 

I would say, we wasted this bowler

 

 

 

Typical mismanagement of phaast bowling resources. Can't even count the number of bowlers who touched 140-145 and then became trundlers because of this reason

[the don]

Reading through some of the named in this thread i have to say guys like Muhammad Akram and Rana Navid were not only quicker but miles superior . 

India really have no pace bowling tradition . This might possibily be the best time to be an Indian pace bowling fan . Even than the Indian captain plays the most defensive bowlers in the 11.

Edited June 27, 2017 by the don

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, the don said:

Reading through some of the named in this thread i have to say guys like Muhammad Akram and Rana Navid were not only quicker but miles superior . 

India really have no pace bowling tradition . This might possibily be the best time to be an Indian pace bowling fan . Even than the Indian captain plays the most defensive bowlers in the 11.

Supposedly, there was a good tradition before Partition - Amar Singh, Nissar and Ramji.

[youngindia]

18 hours ago, express bowling said:

We saw many Indian pacers of the 2000s decade bowl quick for a couple of seasons and then becoming medium pace

 

Like Munaf, VRV, RP Singh, Sreesanth.

 

If speed-guns were not there, many people would have said that they never bowled fast.

 

 

  The game evolves. Its not static and neither is Indian cricket.

 

The scene in the 80's and 90's were not the same as in 2000's and not by a long way.

 

In the 80's and 90's, we struggled to find a second fast medium bowler.

 

Kulkarni was faster but it was binny or prabhakar who were the second bowlers.

 

similarly it was srinath in the 90's. the second bowler was prasad.

 

kuruvilla was close to fast medium at least before he got chances.but he was such a horrible fielder he didnt get chances earlier.

 

none of the others were fast medium.

 

when i saw srinath, i knew he will be there for the next decade as he was genuine fast medium, a rarity in indian cricket at that time.

 

No other bowler inspired such confidence. i saw Ankola in 1989 in pakistan. he was no fast medium.

 

All others were medium pacers or maybe medium fast occasionally.

 

Harvinder bowled only 10 overs in the 3rd test as aussies got to him in bangalore. mark waugh was treating him like a club bowler.

Reports from the match indicated he didnt look like he belonged there.

 

He was banished and  got a few chances in 2001

with a remodelled action but zaheer and nehra were there by that time.

 

Only from the 2000's, the the rate of fast medium prospects was faster and better.

 

The 2005 scene is not comparable at all to the earlier eras.

 

Munaf and ishant were genuinely impressive when they first arrived. but better sportsmen also have good cognitive ability and they

can scale up higher.

 

that's where we struggle.

 

The number of prospects of 2017 is higher than 2005. it will keep evolving.

 

You cant compare eras.

[jf1gp_1]

22 hours ago, rkt.india said:

pace has nothing to do with swing.

Point was he had neither 

 

Someone also wrote kuruvila, when he toured WI one of the WI fast bowlers who had turned commentator said how can such a big man with such a long run up bowl so slowly.

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Point was he had neither 

 

Someone also wrote kuruvila, when he toured WI one of the WI fast bowlers who had turned commentator said how can such a big man with such a long run up bowl so slowly.

Lumbering Leviathan.

[rkt.india]

38 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Point was he had neither 

 

Someone also wrote kuruvila, when he toured WI one of the WI fast bowlers who had turned commentator said how can such a big man with such a long run up bowl so slowly.

Harvinder did have pace. I watched him play as a kid. Video posted by express bowling also proves. He swung the ball too in that video and bowled quick.

[Vijy]

20 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Harvinder did have pace. I watched him play as a kid. Video posted by express bowling also proves. He swung the ball too in that video and bowled quick.

I remember he was reasonably brisk too, but I don't remember his control being very good.

[rkt.india]

27 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I remember he was reasonably brisk too, but I don't remember his control being very good.

yeah, he lacked control but he as dropped far too early, IMO. It was unfair to expect a great control from a rookie fast bowler.

[Vijy]

26 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

yeah, he lacked control but he as dropped far too early, IMO. It was unfair to expect a great control from a rookie fast bowler.

true. most pace bowlers lack control initially - Akram, Imran, McGrath, Marshall, etc had slow starts.

[Mosher]

22 hours ago, express bowling said:

Here is a video of Harvinder Singh bowling in a test match played on a slow and low Indian pitch

 

Just look at the first delivery....how he pushes back Slater with a good length ball and hurries him

 

Then start watching from 12 minutes.... how he bowls a snorter on a slow deck and the next ball on the stumps looks quite quick too.

 

also, he is getting consistent movement  from good areas.  Look at the wicket he took ....video time 11.30

 

I would say, we wasted this bowler

 

 

 

I remember seeing Harvinder in ODI's when he made his debut he was not that quick. He didn't have that high leap at the point of delivery then. But once he added that high leap he got a lot quicker but a bit wayward. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Mosher

[express bowling]

6 hours ago, youngindia said:

 

  The game evolves. Its not static and neither is Indian cricket.

 

The scene in the 80's and 90's were not the same as in 2000's and not by a long way.

 

In the 80's and 90's, we struggled to find a second fast medium bowler.

 

Kulkarni was faster but it was binny or prabhakar who were the second bowlers.

 

similarly it was srinath in the 90's. the second bowler was prasad.

 

kuruvilla was close to fast medium at least before he got chances.but he was such a horrible fielder he didnt get chances earlier.

 

none of the others were fast medium.

 

The game obviously evolves....but much of the evolving regarding our pace bowlers has been the way they have been picked and groomed.

 

In the '80s and '90s, most players were from Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Kolkata and Punjab. We did not look that much at the players from the smaller cities, towns and villages. There were rare exceptions if the player was insanely talented.

 

If we had, finding a few more fast-medium bowlers would have been possible. 

 

The main thing that changed from 2000s onward was that we started picking pacers from all over India....hence more fast-medium pacers.

 

It is not true that no-one else was fast-medium in the '80s and '90s.... TA Sekhar, Ankola, Wassan, Ashish Zaidi and Harvinder Singh would definitely qualify as fast-medium or more among the failed bowlers.

 

Quote

 

when i saw srinath, i knew he will be there for the next decade as he was genuine fast medium, a rarity in indian cricket at that time.

Are you talking about a young Srinath before debut ?

 

Because he was a genuine fast bowler when he played for India

 

Quote

 

No other bowler inspired such confidence. i saw Ankola in 1989 in pakistan. he was no fast medium.

 

All others were medium pacers or maybe medium fast occasionally.

 

Most top international cricketers who saw Ankola in 1989, said that he had pace. Gavaskar in fact said in 1990 that if Srinath were to debut for India then we can have two genuine fast bowlers, Srinath and Ankola, opening the bowling for India for the first time.

 

i watched that series too and Ankola looked pacy.

 

Quote

 

Harvinder bowled only 10 overs in the 3rd test as aussies got to him in bangalore. mark waugh was treating him like a club bowler.

Reports from the match indicated he didnt look like he belonged there.

 

He was banished and  got a few chances in 2001

with a remodelled action but zaheer and nehra were there by that time.

 

Any rookie bowler can be taken to the cleaners by a top international batter. 

 

My issue is with this approach of banishing a bowler based on a match or two.  If he is not good then he should not play international cricket. That much assessment can be made earlier too.  If a player is picked then he should be backed for a sufficient length of time.

 

Quote

 

Only from the 2000's, the the rate of fast medium prospects was faster and better.

 

The 2005 scene is not comparable at all to the earlier eras.

 

Munaf and ishant were genuinely impressive when they first arrived. but better sportsmen also have good cognitive ability and they

can scale up higher.

 

that's where we struggle.

 

Quote

 

The number of prospects of 2017 is higher than 2005. it will keep evolving.

 

You cant compare eras.

The comparison of eras was regarding the basic talent that was available ( it was available but not identified or picked,  as smaller places were ignored )  and  grooming and handling of that talent. ( which is being done now and was not done in the '80s and '90s )

 

Now we have  Bumrah-Gujarat, Umesh - Vidharbha, Aaron - Jharkhand, Bhuvi - UP, ..... Avesh - MP,  Nathu, Aniket - Rajasthan, Thampi, Warrier - Kerala,  etc.

 

In the 2000s, we had Munaf, Zaheer, Irfan - Gujarat, Sreesanth - Kerala, RP - UP

 

This picking of pacers from the whole of India, as opposed to only a few big places in the '80s and '90s.....has made a lot of difference to our talent pool.

 

The identified talent pool is being groomed much better too..... pacers are adding pace and medium-fast bowlers are becoming fast-medium.  Some fast-medium bowlers have become fast. They are becoming better bowlers too. This aspect was absent in the '80s and '90s. Pacers were rejected and left in the cold too easily.

Edited June 28, 2017 by express bowling