England and its current list of allrounders. Is Woakes the best?

[mishra]

Unlike rest of cricketing fraternity, England is blessed with so many top class all rounders. There is Ali, Ben Stokes and now Woakes. He looked better with ball then average suggested in last Ashes. Since then he got better and better.

Against Pakistan he looked taking wicket every over at old Trafford.

What you guys think of him. More importantly how come England keeps on producing brilliant all rounders?

 

One thing i have observed is ECB has put restriction of 5 overs for any under 16 pac bowler playing with senior teams. Result is that few of them has been able to bat longer and better with their arms still ready for next days game

[tweaker]

Woakes  has been a revelation in this series.

[tweaker]

England has been blessed because of quality all-rounder in Stokes & Woakes.

Stokes is batting all-rounder& Woakes is bowling all-rounder.Woakes has always looked like he will get wicket whenever he has bowled in this series

[philcric]

Why does England need so many bloody all rounders 

 

Someone like Stokes would be gold dust for Indian team. Batting at #6 or #7, being the 3rd or 4th seamer. That would plug the major gap in the team.

 

[maniac]

Woakes and Stokes.....the future....Stokes is ahead at the moment marginally though...coming back from injury but this guy is a potential ATG and woakes is on that path too

[philcric]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

Woakes and Stokes.....the future....Stokes is ahead at the moment marginally though...coming back from injury but this guy is a potential ATG and woakes is on that path too

One more advantage is Stokes is a batting all-rounder and Woakes is a bowling all-rounder. What balance they bring to the team if they play together.

 

Stokes has 11 centuries and 215 wickets in 95 FC games.

Woakes has 9 centuries and 403 wickets in 116 FC games.

 

 

[tweaker]

We are also blessed with Binny & Dhawan,one is bowling all-rounder& other batting all-rounder

[Adi_91]

Woakes has certainly impressed. Wicket taking ability has been astonishing in this series against Pakistan. 

 

Right now, we have seaming all rounders in Binny and Bhuvi, but they bowl with slower speeds. Part of the fault lies with BCCI with their green pitch policy in Ranji matches encouraging more trundlers to come through.

 

I want BCCI to make surfaces in each part of the country to be different from one another, one which helps lateral movement, one which allows spinners and another one which has good bounce encouraging much faster bowlers to come through the ranks. Also important is the role of coaches in domestic cricket to spot talent with both batting and bowling abilities. This will take some time to come through in terms of talent pool, but it is definitely worth the investment.

[sandeep]

Hardik Pandya has potential to be a batting allrounder - nowhere near test class but at least for ODIs.  What did BCCI do?  Instead of taking him to Zimbabwe, they give games to Faiz Fazal, Rishi Dhawan, Dhaval Kulkarni.  

When you have scarcity of All-rounders, you should groom and develop the ones you have.  Not bench them because they have a poor IPL.  

Not saying Pandya's great, but he was worth a punt.  

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Hardik Pandya has potential to be a batting allrounder - nowhere near test class but at least for ODIs.  What did BCCI do?  Instead of taking him to Zimbabwe, they give games to Faiz Fazal, Rishi Dhawan, Dhaval Kulkarni.  

When you have scarcity of All-rounders, you should groom and develop the ones you have.  Not bench them because they have a poor IPL.  

Not saying Pandya's great, but he was worth a punt.  

Chris Woakes or Ben Stokes are capable of scoring test 100's in any condition.....Pandya at best is a T20 hack....if anything Pandya's bowling which is his weaker suit is relatively more impressive...impressive in the sense he can hit 140 clicks and just needs to add some stock deliveries and work on his skills without losing pace.....batting wise is will be no better than Yadav or Shami with the bat.

[sandeep]

14 minutes ago, maniac said:

Chris Woakes or Ben Stokes are capable of scoring test 100's in any condition.....Pandya at best is a T20 hack....if anything Pandya's bowling which is his weaker suit is relatively more impressive...impressive in the sense he can hit 140 clicks and just needs to add some stock deliveries and work on his skills without losing pace.....batting wise is will be no better than Yadav or Shami with the bat.

I bow to you sir, oh Mr talent Evaluator.  Who after seeing a few innings of Hardik Pandya could determine what his ceiling is.  You should be hired by T20 leagues around the world, don't know why it hasn't happened already.  

 

And oh, I would place excellent odds on Ben Stokes & Woakes having a poor series with the bat (and ball) in the sub-continent.  Whether its SL, BANG or India.  

[philcric]

2 hours ago, tweaker said:

We are also blessed with Binny & Dhawan,one is bowling all-rounder& other batting all-rounder

It'd be too unfair on the opposition if we play them together. I don't think the opposite team would even bother turning up, they'd just forfeit and go home.

 

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I bow to you sir, oh Mr talent Evaluator.  Who after seeing a few innings of Hardik Pandya could determine what his ceiling is.  You should be hired by T20 leagues around the world, don't know why it hasn't happened already.  

 

And oh, I would place excellent odds on Ben Stokes & Woakes having a poor series with the bat (and ball) in the sub-continent.  Whether its SL, BANG or India.  

Apples to Apples If I had to pick one I will take Binny over Pandya....on flat tracks and dust bowls both are useless......As batsmen it is a no contest Binny is leagues ahead,In Swinging conditions Binny over Pandya as a bowler.

 

Tell me one innings of Pandya where he has impressed? even if it is an IPL innings I will take it say when his team is at 50/6 or 60/6 kind of a situation.

 

Pandya's only upside seems to be that he can bowl a few deliveries at 140 in T20-His Stamina in other formats is untested.

 

Yes he is a gun fielder but that's about it.

 

I don't recollect Pandya having stellar FC or List A stats either.

 

You don't pick an allrounder on potential alone...he has to be good at atleast one thing......Ashwin's 100 really added the balance to the side and was precious but I am pretty sure many of us would have been upset had he went wicketless in the game and would have been more satisfied had he taken 7 wickets but only scored an important 30-35 runs.

 

Irfan Pathan was the last thing before Ashwin we had close to a genuine allrounder but again the guy was a bowler first who became useless in both departments.

 

By this I am not saying Binny is the answer both are useless but apples to apples Binny is  better or even Sir Jadeja.

 

[Adi_91]

@maniac

 

Out of all the new players in our team, he seems to have the attitude to be a big striker. That to me is good enough.

 

And if you want to be impressed to favor someone, then where did Kohli impress in ODIs from 2011 to 2012. Only from Hobart, he started to show his ODI prowess. Now, did Pandya get a year to play?

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Adi_91 said:

@maniac

 

Out of all the new players in our team, he seems to have the attitude to be a big striker. That to me is good enough.

 

And if you want to be impressed to favor someone, then where did Kohli impress in ODIs from 2011 to 2012. Only from Hobart, he started to show his ODI prowess. Now, did Pandya get a year to play?

Kohli played some clutch knocks in South Africa in 2010-2011 tour and pretty much grabbed every opportunity he got before that....Looked compact and performed almost every time...Yes Hobart made him a superstar and put him on a different plane.

 

Pandya has not even done that

[Adi_91]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Kohli played some clutch knocks in South Africa in 2010-2011 tour and pretty much grabbed every opportunity he got before that....Looked compact and performed almost every time...Yes Hobart made him a superstar and put him on a different plane.

 

Pandya has not even done that

Even Dhoni is his first few games did not do that, but had the selectors dropped him then would have been a great disservice to Indian cricket.

 

Most here in ICF believe that Pandya and the likes of Shreyas Iyer should be given a go. Pandya is already in and I think all of us agree that Pandya deserves to get some chances.

[sandeep]

31 minutes ago, maniac said:

Apples to Apples If I had to pick one I will take Binny over Pandya....on flat tracks and dust bowls both are useless......As batsmen it is a no contest Binny is leagues ahead,In Swinging conditions Binny over Pandya as a bowler.

 

Tell me one innings of Pandya where he has impressed? even if it is an IPL innings I will take it say when his team is at 50/6 or 60/6 kind of a situation.

 

Pandya's only upside seems to be that he can bowl a few deliveries at 140 in T20-His Stamina in other formats is untested.

 

Yes he is a gun fielder but that's about it.

 

I don't recollect Pandya having stellar FC or List A stats either.

 

You don't pick an allrounder on potential alone...he has to be good at atleast one thing......Ashwin's 100 really added the balance to the side and was precious but I am pretty sure many of us would have been upset had he went wicketless in the game and would have been more satisfied had he taken 7 wickets but only scored an important 30-35 runs.

 

Irfan Pathan was the last thing before Ashwin we had close to a genuine allrounder but again the guy was a bowler first who became useless in both departments.

 

By this I am not saying Binny is the answer both are useless but apples to apples Binny is  better or even Sir Jadeja.

 

I'm not saying pick Pandya for tests.  I'm saying pick him for ODIs.  He's shown enough to earn that. And we have an empty spot at #5/6 in the ODI batting lineup.  We need a hard-hitting middle order bat there.  

 

 

[sandeep]

Quote

Tell me one innings of Pandya where he has impressed? even if it is an IPL innings I will take it say when his team is at 50/6 or 60/6 kind of a situation.

He played a couple in the Syed Mushtaq Ali T20 tournament like that.  But I dont put that much stock in T20 tournaments - its a high risk game with different mental and technical requirements.  

 

What drew the sarcasm is this dismissive claim that he can never develop into a test level player.  You or anybody else can't claim that.  

 

If a Steve Smith can turn from a legspin prospect to a test batsman, a Ravi Shastri can turn from a bowler to test opener, things are possible.  And no need to be dismissive of a 20-something year old who has only played a couple years of first class cricket.  

[maniac]

43 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I'm not saying pick Pandya for tests.  I'm saying pick him for ODIs.  He's shown enough to earn that. And we have an empty spot at #5/6 in the ODI batting lineup.  We need a hard-hitting middle order bat there.  

 

 

Let us say if Pandya is competing with a Yuvraj or Raina for that position.....would you take him over the other 2 just because he can bowl at 135-140 without swing,seam or a stock delivery? No 5 in a ODI is a critical position.....You pick a batsman there and if he can bowl even at Raina/Yuvraj level that's a bonus.

 

Let us look at No.5/No 6 at all current teams-

England-Baristow/Morgan/Butler(Frontline batsman who can keep/Frontline batsman/Frontline batsman who can keep)

Srilanka-Matthews/Chandimal(Frontline batsman who can bowl/Frontline Batsman who can keep)

Australia-G.Maxwell/M.Marsh(Frotnline LOI batsman who can bowl/ Allrounder)

Westindies-Pollard/D.Ramdin(Batting Allrounder/Keeper)

South Africa-D.Miller/J.Duminy/F.Behardeen(Frontline batsman/Frontline batsman who can bowl/Allrounder)

Pakistan-Shoaib Malik/U.Akmal(Frontline batsman who can bowl/Frontline batsman)

Newzealand-C.Anderson/G.Elliot(Allrounder/Batsman who can bowl)

 

The ones highlighted in blue are the closest you can compare to Pandya

 

That leaves with Marsh,Pollard,Behardeen,Anderson,Elliot.

 

Elliot is a clutch batsman who can roll his arm over

Anderson is a genuine allrounder but thanks to newzealand depth they can afford to play him as a batsman even if he doesn't bowl and is capable of that,

Behardeen-Closest to Pandya

Pollard-batsman first who can roll his arm over

M.Marsh-can be comparable to what we want Pandya to become

 

So Marsh and Behardeen

Behardeen at best is a Binny type player and isn't the whole point we don't want bits and pieces to begin with.

 

So that leaves us with Marsh-who at this point is leagues ahead of Pandya and with our already brittle lower order would you prefer risking that or going with a Raina/Yuvraj type genuine batsman who can give you some overs?

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by maniac

[maniac]

53 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

Even Dhoni is his first few games did not do that, but had the selectors dropped him then would have been a great disservice to Indian cricket.

 

Most here in ICF believe that Pandya and the likes of Shreyas Iyer should be given a go. Pandya is already in and I think all of us agree that Pandya deserves to get some chances.

Dhoni was a keeper....specialist position.....You pick a player as a specialist first.

 

Yes Iyer deserves a go as he is a genuine batsman not bits and pieces