Our power hitters in Loi's!! Who are they?

[Samcric]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Axar has an average of 30 with an ER of 4.39. average of 30 is pretty good considering 300 is par these days at most places. Mishra has an average of 23 with an ER of 4.72 so it's not high but what works against Mishra is he doesn't play regularly and most of his wickets are against minnows.

I said 'recently' and by that I meant the series against NZ. Axar took 4 wickets in 5 matches at an average of 46.50 but an eco rate of 4.3 which actually helped him break into the top 10 ranked bowlers.

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, Samcric said:

I said 'recently' and by that I meant the series against NZ. Axar took 4 wickets in 5 matches at an average of 46.50 but an eco rate of 4.3 which actually helped him break into the top 10 ranked bowlers.

Ranking doesn't depend on just one series.

[rkt.india]

58 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Hi All 

This is my fist post though i am a regular visitor here for the past 3 years .

Always check rkt posts  with interest . 

My 2 cents on one day team set up going forward.

1. I think we need to lower our expectations re: induction of new talent in shorter format till CT 2017. With MSD at the helm i do not think we may not see many changes,  even though fair number of ICFERS do want to see new faces .   But i will be disappointed if new guys do not come in post CT 2017.

2.Will be happy if Pant & Kuldeep get inducted in either T20 or 50 overs in ENG series in JAN . This is my least expectation.

3. MSD is not what he was . You just need to see some of the videos from 2015 till 2008  and his current way of batting.  Hence i would be keenly watching his knocks to see

a)  has he found a way to counter wide outside of off yorkers and get runs ?

b) his single /2 taking  consistency  - what is recently noticed  is he just taps balls with no real intent to get even singles and then tries to hit a boundary/Six.  This disrupts batting flow  esp . in middle overs . Imagine rampaging Virat at one end and MSD not rotating strike very frequently . 

c) His favourite scoring option - a bunt to the onside and scampering for 2 runs . I think most of the teams now very aware of it and will plan for it .

d) His ability to counter fast Short pitched bowling.

If he has ironed out the above shortcoming i am still OK if he plays  at 4 or 5  purely as a batsman . In any case IMHO he should hang his boots  post CT2017 . Mind you he was the best one day captain of India and finisher. No arguments there .  But now age has caught up.

4. Many here seem to suggest we need big hitters . I would rather want to see a skillful player at 5 who is innovative against spin and a busy player who is adept at taking singles and looks to be better equipped to protect his wicket too. . I think we need such a guy among some big hitters in 6 &7 positions . I think  2 best options keeping future in mind at 5 are - Nair & Manish. Nair with his reverse sweep , sweep and slog sweep looks to be a better bet . Manish though good takes too many risks and a bit inconsistent in my view till this point in time . If we see every team now has 1-2 spinners and hence we need players who can disrupt normal filed placings opposition teams employ and concede only singles in middle overs .  Only KL & Nair have such shots currently among new faces ( Apart from Rohit & Virat among established ones ).

5. Who are the new faces i want to see - Pant , Kuldeep, Natarajan , Deepak Hooda, Karun Nair .

6. I also want to see that one magic ball developed by Ashwin - which Saqlain used to bowl when batters try to go after him. That magic ball comes at a slower speed and bounces a bit more . I think he is trying to bowl that -  Please see video of Madras test where Manjrekar analyses different variations of Ash bowling. If he masters that ball , i think he will be dangerous in one dayers when slogging is on. 

7. I think we need another good death bowler to partner Bumrah. Should bowl yorkers consistently . If any of the current lot reaches that level - nothing like it . Pinning my hopes on Nartarajan among the newer lot. He is a leftie to boot. 

8. I hope Kumble & Virat make Kuldeep part of india 15 , so that he gets to train under indian team to learn tricks of the trade , physical fitness , bowling to classy players in nets - so that his learning curve is fast and he becomes consistent in his line & length.  Once he reaches that level India will be formidable both in test & one dayers .

9. I dream of a india one day team with 2 classy spinners ( Ash with new magic ball ) and 2 very good death bowlers . There is no worry about batters for me .

RKT ...  would like your views 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum. Good post.

[Samcric]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

and Mishra has an ER of only 4.7....he is not expensive as he says

 

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Yes....but he is not a good example of an expensive bowler who takes wickets, as the poster above claims

Fair enough. But the larger point remains that bowling average alone does not determine how good of an ODI bowler a player is. Unlike in tests where Average is only statistic that matters for bowlers. 

[Samcric]

16 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Ranking doesn't depend on just one series.

Did I say it does? My point was that he would not gain rating points and advance from 14th to 9th if average was the only criteria. Both average and econ rate matter for an ODI bowler. Point being on the 'Average only vs Average+Econ rate' debate as you were trying to point out the averages of bowlers with regards to their suitability as ODI bowlers which I don't agree to. 

[rkt.india]

18 minutes ago, Samcric said:

Did I say it does? My point was that he would not gain rating points and advance from 14th to 9th if average was the only criteria. Both average and econ rate matter for an ODI bowler. Point being on the 'Average only vs Average+Econ rate' debate as you were trying to point out the averages of bowlers with regards to their suitability as ODI bowlers which I don't agree to. 

Both go together. Yes, good ER did help him in this series but a better average even if he had a bit higher ER would have done the same too.

[Lannister]

Dhawan

Rahul

Kohli

Pandey/Nair

Rohit

Hardik

Pant

Jadeja

Ashwin/Yadav

Bhuvi/Shami

Bumrah

We need to develop 2 good batting all-rounders who can bowl a minimum of 15 overs between them, along with 4 specialist bowlers. 

[express bowling]

Shami's ER  has improved  quite a bit and  Bhuvi's economy rate in ODIs has deteriorated significantly in the last 2 years

 

Here is a list of  ERs  of  Indian pacers in ODIs in the last 2 years  ( excluding Zimbabwe matches  )

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
JJ Bumrah	2016-2016	5	5	42.4	1	172	8	3/35	21.50	4.03	32.0	0	0
Mohammed Shami	2015-2015	9	8	64.1	5	303	13	4/35	23.30	4.72	29.6	1	0
MM Sharma	2015-2015	11	11	87.4	3	516	16	2/31	32.25	5.88	32.8	0	0
STR Binny	2015-2015	5	4	29.0	0	171	5	3/33	34.20	5.89	34.8	0	0
I Sharma	2015-2016	5	4	40.0	0	250	9	4/77	27.77	6.25	26.6	1	0
UT Yadav	2015-2016	21	21	178.5	5	1121	34	4/31	32.97	6.26	31.5	2	0
B Kumar	2015-2016	11	11	89.3	1	589	10	3/41	58.90	6.58	53.7	0	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=5;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=01+Jan+2017;spanmin1=01+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, Lannister said:

Dhawan

Rahul

Kohli

Pandey/Nair

Rohit

Hardik

Pant

Jadeja

Ashwin/Yadav

Bhuvi/Shami

Bumrah

We need to develop 2 good batting all-rounders who can bowl a minimum of 15 overs between them, along with 4 specialist bowlers. 

Bhuvi vs Shami cant happen- shami is a complete bowler who can take wkts with new n old ball . Bhuvi strength is wkt with new balls which also has been dried up for past 2 yrs. Also i want to see how he bowls in death over consistently over a period of time in International cricket in Odis. Shami if fit is a must, bhuvi is nowere near shami as a bowler. Shami can bowl on any deck and against any lineup

The question should always be Bhuvi vs 3rd pace (sran, yadav, or any newcomer)

 

Shami vs Bhuvi is no comparison

 

 

Why is rohit being dropped down the order when he has failed miserably there??????

Pant at 7 what a waste , and giving a newcomer a opp at 7 is not right. 

[Lannister]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Bhuvi vs Shami cant happen- shami is a complete bowler who can take wkts with new n old ball . Bhuvi strength is wkt with new balls which also has been dried up for past 2 yrs. Also i want to see how he bowls in death over consistently over a period of time in International cricket in Odis. Shami if fit is a must, bhuvi is nowere near shami as a bowler. Shami can bowl on any deck and against any lineup

The question should always be Bhuvi vs 3rd pace (sran, yadav, or any newcomer)

 

Shami vs Bhuvi is no comparison

 

 

Why is rohit being dropped down the order when he has failed miserably there??????

Pant at 7 what a waste , and giving a newcomer a opp at 7 is not right. 

The focus was more on the batsmen rather than the bowlers. I just included all the bowlers who are most likely to make into playing X1.

 

We had an abysmal year or two in ODIs, and it was mainly because of the lack of hitters down the order. Batting positions 4,5 and 6 are the problematic areas. I think its bEst if we let our best players to play in those positions. New players can play more freely knowing there are experinced players to come. Letting Kohli bat at top is not going to help other players to grow. We can play in this order too, 

Dhawan

Pant

Rahul

Kohli

Rohit

Hardik

Dhoni

Jadeja

The bottom line is there needs to be a change in the tactics if we were to have any chance in retaining the champions trophy. 

 

[Cricketics]

29 minutes ago, Lannister said:

The focus was more on the batsmen rather than the bowlers. I just included all the bowlers who are most likely to make into playing X1.

 

We had an abysmal year or two in ODIs, and it was mainly because of the lack of hitters down the order. Batting positions 4,5 and 6 are the problematic areas. I think its bEst if we let our best players to play in those positions. New players can play more freely knowing there are experinced players to come. Letting Kohli bat at top is not going to help other players to grow. We can play in this order too, 

Dhawan

Pant

Rahul

Kohli

Rohit

Hardik

Dhoni

Jadeja

The bottom line is there needs to be a change in the tactics if we were to have any chance in retaining the champions trophy. 

 

Rohit sucked every where we tried him other than the opening slot. He hit two double tons as an opener and has been fairly consistent at his new slot and doing fine there. Now if India is sucking in ODI's, we shouldn't look to adjust new guys into Rohit's position. We shouldn't change things which are going well for us, the other players need to be adjusted else where. Rohit can't be changed. He has to play as an opener only. To adjust Rahul, and new guys like Pant, Rohit can not come down now as that is where he cost us many games. 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, Lannister said:

The focus was more on the batsmen rather than the bowlers. I just included all the bowlers who are most likely to make into playing X1.

 

We had an abysmal year or two in ODIs, and it was mainly because of the lack of hitters down the order. Batting positions 4,5 and 6 are the problematic areas. I think its bEst if we let our best players to play in those positions. New players can play more freely knowing there are experinced players to come. Letting Kohli bat at top is not going to help other players to grow. We can play in this order too, 

Dhawan

Pant

Rahul

Kohli

Rohit

Hardik

Dhoni

Jadeja

The bottom line is there needs to be a change in the tactics if we were to have any chance in retaining the champions trophy. 

Again makes no sense. 

ODi has 300 balls, ur best batsman are kohli, rohit and dhoni (despite being on decline he still does better than many.) The rule is simple give ur best batsman Max number of balls .

 

Rohit- We all have seen how big he scores once he sets so why drop him . Either he opens or he sits out

Kohli- World best Odi batsman, last year we did drop him at 4 and we saw wat happ. His position shudnt be changed at all. You do not mess with ur best batsman batting position. 

Dhoni- He is struggling to be the same hitter he was. He can still do the graffter role very well. HE has exp so he shud bat at 4,5 not any below 

 

IF we are struggling in past few years

The reason have been 

1. Yes lack of players with firepower. 

2. Strike rotation of everyone accept kohli n dhoni is not that good

3. Wrong personnel being blooded in raydu, rahane and now jadhav. These guys will never be match winners. 

4. Failure of tallwards like yuvraj, gambhir n sehwag makes a team full of youngsters and lack of exp does hurt

5. Raina failing to go to another level and even dhawan was a better player when he came then now

6. Failure of jadeja at 7 as batsman. 

7. Lack of understanding of Modern game by Sandeep patil n co. 

 

If there is a problem fix the problem , do not change the things that are already in place. Luckily we have enough talent now to fix the problem areas. But we need to keep patience with all the new players. 

 

[express bowling]

The team and batting order which we are most likely to see in CT, provided everone is fit  ( not my choice but what I think will happen )

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Dhoni

Rahul

Kedar

Pandya

Jadeja / Axar

Ashwin

Shami

Bumrah

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Again makes no sense. 

ODi has 300 balls, ur best batsman are kohli, rohit and dhoni (despite being 

IF we are struggling in past few years

The reason have been 

1. Yes lack of players with firepower. 

2. Strike rotation of everyone accept kohli n dhoni is not that good

3. Wrong personnel being blooded in raydu, rahane and now jadhav. These guys will never be match winners. 

4. Failure of tallwards like yuvraj, gambhir n sehwag makes a team full of youngsters and lack of exp does hurt

5. Raina failing to go to another level and even dhawan was a better player when he came then now

6. Failure of jadeja at 7 as batsman. 

7. Lack of understanding of Modern game by Sandeep patil n co.

Those are some valid points but it also proves that we have been too dependent on Dhoni's hitting. His average year exposed that. Which also proved that had Kohli had an average year too, then we would have been in serious trouble all year as regardless of how much players score on top, if guys from first down till no.7 do not consistently score, we will lose and struggle regularly. Kohli and an average year of Dhoni ensured we did decent the last few years. And hence we have been just a decent or average odi side. 

 

Need to bring more balance to the middle order. And Dhoni will provide it when he goes to no.4

[Cricketics]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

The team and batting order which we are most likely to see in CT, provided everone is fit  ( not my choice but what I think will happen )

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Dhoni

Rahul

Kedar

Pandya

Jadeja / Axar

Ashwin

Shami

Bumrah

 

 

As soon as the champions trophy is over(trust me it will be over in no time and by the time we know it, the month of tournament would be upon us), we need to start fresh in terms of  mbeing open mind in giving more chances to people who have been on the sidelines or have been dropped early or have been knocking the door.

 

 

We will be able to try more combinations and give more chances in order to get ready for 2019 WC.

 

Ideally following players can be tried at the positions mentioned below to get ready for the world cup which will be long away but is something should be our prime focus starting the end of champions trophy.

 

I would like to see post champions trophy:-

 

Unmukt Chand/Rishab Pant/Shreyas Iyer - at opening position if someone is failing miserably up there

 

Hooda/Rahul/Pant- Can be tried in the middle order, right after Kohli at 3. 

 

Special mention to old veteran - Bipul Sharma, a not so popular guy from our domestic cricket. He can give us few years in ODi and twenty20 as an all rounder. He can hit the ball real big. He is 33, but he can surely play and last till next world cup if we need to try an all rounder around no. 7. I would like to try him once, at least before he call it quits from Ranji Trophy. 

 

 

[Lannister]

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

ODi has 300 balls, ur best batsman are kohli, rohit and dhoni (despite being on decline he still does better than many.) The rule is simple give ur best batsman Max number of balls .

That is mostly applicable for T20s, don't get confused with the formats. Otherwise we wouldn't be having problems with our weak lower order. ABD bats at 4 for South Africa. 

 

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Rohit- We all have seen how big he scores once he sets so why drop him . Either he opens or he sits out

For all his bravado, he's too inconsistent at the top and opening is more riskier. His batting style lets him play anywhere in the team. We don't have a batsman who can play at 5, which I think is the most important position. Maxwell was the key difference for Australia in winning the World Cup. 

 

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Kohli- World best Odi batsman, last year we did drop him at 4 and we saw wat happ. His position shudnt be changed at all. You do not mess with ur best batsman batting position. 

3 or 4, it doesn't matter for the best batsman in the world. It's a lot more safe if he bats at 4.

 

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Dhoni- He is struggling to be the same hitter he was. He can still do the graffter role very well. HE has exp so he shud bat at 4,5 not any below 

lol.. what to do with this guy..!! There's no place for grafters in this era. I think we should just hide him at 7, if the match reaches at that point it's safe to assume that we have already lost it.

 

I want to see Rahul take more responsibility and there by more exposure, he has the potential to be our next best bat to Kohli. We have been doing it all wrong by sending in new players very late in the batting order. They will not learn anything with only 5-10 overs remaining. 

 

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, Samcric said:

Did I say it does? My point was that he would not gain rating points and advance from 14th to 9th if average was the only criteria. Both average and econ rate matter for an ODI bowler. Point being on the 'Average only vs Average+Econ rate' debate as you were trying to point out the averages of bowlers with regards to their suitability as ODI bowlers which I don't agree to. 

Both go together. Yes, good ER did help him in this series but a better average even if he had a bit higher ER would have done the same too.

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Lannister said:

That is mostly applicable for T20s, don't get confused with the formats. Otherwise we wouldn't be having problems with our weak lower order. ABD bats at 4 for South Africa. 

 

For all his bravado, he's too inconsistent at the top and opening is more riskier. His batting style lets him play anywhere in the team. We don't have a batsman who can play at 5, which I think is the most important position. Maxwell was the key difference for Australia in winning the World Cup. 

 

3 or 4, it doesn't matter for the best batsman in the world. It's a lot more safe if he bats at 4.

 

lol.. what to do with this guy..!! There's no place for grafters in this era. I think we should just hide him at 7, if the match reaches at that point it's safe to assume that we have already lost it.

 

I want to see Rahul take more responsibility and there by more exposure, he has the potential to be our next best bat to Kohli. We have been doing it all wrong by sending in new players very late in the batting order. They will not learn anything with only 5-10 overs remaining. 

 

Rohit is averaging 54 in last two years, how is it inconsistent? Now, no one can score every game but average of 50 plus is good enough. Also, Rohit can't bat that well in middle order, Rahul can.

[Lannister]

8 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Rohit sucked every where we tried him other than the opening slot. He hit two double tons as an opener and has been fairly consistent at his new slot and doing fine there. Now if India is sucking in ODI's, we shouldn't look to adjust new guys into Rohit's position. We shouldn't change things which are going well for us, the other players need to be adjusted else where. Rohit can't be changed. He has to play as an opener only. To adjust Rahul, and new guys like Pant, Rohit can not come down now as that is where he cost us many games. 

 

 

Nope. Nothing is going well for us. Let's look at W/L record for the past 2 years. 

 

 

Even our RPO is 5th best. We need more experienced players down the order. Pant and Rahul will not hold you back at scoring rate, if that is what you are worried.  

[Cricketics]

4 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Nope. Nothing is going well for us. Let's look at W/L record for the past 2 years. 

 

 

Even our RPO is 5th best. We need more experienced players down the order. Pant and Rahul will not hold you back at scoring rate, if that is what you are worried.  

That we all know, but we are talking about Rohit's batting order. He is doing fine at his opening slot. HE failed miserably earlier batting at the place where you are trying to bring him back. No use of that.