So who is "A Great Captain"

[CG]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

I like IPL...love it even....but how the IPL has changed perspective even in posters with smart cricketing acumen(at least I thought they had) 

 

Dhoni is the Moses who led a team of chokers to winning cups  I heard it all.

 

For starters to reach a final we need to win Quarter Finals and Semi Finals-unless there is a new ICC rule I am not aware of.

 

Dhoni's team too got knocked out in 2 WC knockouts and plenty of other first round exits unless it was the teams fault in that case for which there is a good probability.

 

 

I think you have got it wrong we never lost any wc or wt20 under dhoni its the team which lost,If we had dhoni has captain we would won all world cups and wt20s.

[maniac]

1 minute ago, CG said:

I think you have got it wrong we never lost any wc or wt20 under dhoni its the team which lost,If we had dhoni has captain we would won all world cups and wt20s.

Also never lost CB Series,Asia Cup and other Bilateral series either.....The ones Dhoni won he lead....the other time he motivated the team to fend for themselves which they failed.

[BeautifulGame]

Captaincy does papy a part but it's childish to say India won just because of Dhonis captaincy.On the contrary his Captaincy was nothing special in WC 2011 like giving Nehra the final over against SA where we lost.Had struggled throughout to come good at finals it was a team effort rather than individual.Let me know some captaincy gems at WC I missed.

Sticking with Yuvi despite him struggling for a year leading up to the world cup.

Playing Ashwin in the QF and opening the bowling with him.

Using Yuvi as a strike bowler through out the knock outs particularly in the semi final against Pakistan

And of course promoting himself to no.5 and finishing off the final.

I wrote this decade.You are forgetting the greatest odi side of all time was present took everything in 2000-2010.

So the greatest ODI side of all time prevented us from even qualifying from the group stage at home ?

[BeautifulGame]

For those over-rating Gangu teili's captaincy - the guy was a quality leader of men, but was as poor a captain as MSD in Tests, when it came to tactics and strategy.  Gangu forced the best ODI opener ever to bat at #4, so he could continue to tuk-tuk at 70% SR in Veeru's slipstream.   Gangu's bowling changes and field placements left so much to be desired it wasn't even funny.  MSD was a clear upgrade as ODI skipper over Gangu, as much as I admire Gangu's fiestiness and respect his contributions to the team.  Gangu should also get credit for putting pressure on the selectors to give proper runs to new players - before he publicly took that stand, BCCI selectors were quite greenbro like in trying and chucking new faces with an odd game here and there - not to mention the horse-trading and BS zonal based selection nonsense.  But let's not claim that Gangu was anywhere close to MS's class in LOI captaincy.  

Infact Ganguly's did the same in test cricket.Because he was captain, he regularly batted ahead of Laxman despite being the inferior batsman and often Laxman was left playing with tail.

Selfishly put him ahead of the team and that cost us often.Melbourne test in 2004 the biggest of them.

[maniac]

1 minute ago, BeautifulGame said:

Sticking with Yuvi despite him struggling for a year leading up to the world cup.

Playing Ashwin in the QF and opening the bowling with him.

Using Yuvi as a strike bowler through out the knock outs particularly in the semi final against Pakistan

And of course promoting himself to no.5 and finishing off the final.

 

So the greatest ODI side of all time prevented us from even qualifying from the group stage at home ?

Point 1- Yuvi was struggling in South Africa no doubt prior to that,but Dhoni had nothing  to do with Yuvraj's selection.

 

Point 2-QF was one of the slowest tracks in the World Cup...case in point Ponting's innings.....opening with a spinner is hardly an out of the box never before seen move.

 

Point 3-Using Yuvi as a 5th bowler was a no-brainer given the lack of options-Sachin and Sehwag were done as bowlers by that point.

 

Point 4-Seized the opportunity...don't want to dissect that too much as he got the job done...so if you want to gloat about it as a masterstroke...sure...I will give you this one

[Yoda-esque]

Somebody like Rohit Sharma

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[BeautifulGame]

Point 1- Yuvi was struggling in South Africa no doubt prior to that,but Dhoni had nothing  to do with Yuvraj's selection.

 

Point 2-QF was one of the slowest tracks in the World Cup...case in point Ponting's innings.....opening with a spinner is hardly an out of the box never before seen move.

 

Point 3-Using Yuvi as a 5th bowler was a no-brainer given the lack of options-Sachin and Sehwag were done as bowlers by that point.

 

Point 4-Seized the opportunity...don't want to dissect that too much as he got the job done...so if you want to gloat about it as a masterstroke...sure...I will give you this one

Yuvi was struggling throughout the year not just SA.Infact even in India he was struggling to putting bat to ball.

So how many times India have opened with spinners in a pressure game.Infact can u even list any matches Indian captains doing it before him.Links please .

Also it was a slow track not turning track.Which meant opening the bowling the biggest challenge for spinner.YSo yeah it was a great Captaincy by Dhoni.

Not as just 5th bowler.Check how regularly had slips for him and close in fielder's and attacking with him despite being a part timer .

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

 

Infact Ganguly's did the same in test cricket.Because he was captain, he regularly batted ahead of Laxman despite being the inferior batsman and often Laxman was left playing with tail.

 

Selfishly put him ahead of the team and that cost us often.Melbourne test in 2004 the biggest of them.

In test matches, it is not a case of the best batsman batting first and the 2nd best batsman batting next and so on.  If that were the case then Tendulkar would have batted at No.3   ( the first batsman in the middle-order )

 

The batsman coming at No.6 is often the one who has the ability to bat best with the tail.   

 

Another thing is....Laxman was a better player of bounce and Ganguly was a better player of swing.... Laxman was better at defending spinners and Ganguly was better at hitting spinners....it was not always a clear case of Laxman being better than Ganguly.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by express bowling

[BeautifulGame]

In test matches, it is not a case of the best batsman batting first and the 2nd best batsman batting next and so on.  If that were the case then Tendulkar would have batted at No.3   ( the first batsman in the middle-order )

 

The batsman coming at No.6 is often the one who has the ability to bat best with the tail.   

 

 

And yet Ganguly was not Captain when he made his comeback , Laxman batted ahead of him at 5.

Also in which team is no.6 a better player that no.5 ?

Openers and no.3 are different in test cricket because they need to see of the new ball.No4/5/6 are often based into their quality of their batting.

Batting with tail is something most players develop by playing in International cricket.Because they are mostly top order bat in their domestic teams .Also Laxman was actually I'll suited to bat with tail as he can't go for the big shots .Late in his career he developed a method which just shows the quality batsmen he is.

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

And yet Ganguly was not Captain when he made his comeback , Laxman batted ahead of him at 5.

After Ganguly's tenure, Laxman started coming in at No. 3 for some time when Dravid opened.  He was used at No.5 when Ganguly lost form and then again went back to No. 6 when Sourav started to play better and then again came back to No. 5 after Ganguly stopped playing tests.   Even during Ganguly's tenure, he batted at No. 5 and No. 3 in a significant number of  innings.

 

Ganguly batted mostly at No. 5 even after he was removed from captaincy....except the last 8 or 9 months of his test career.

 

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Also in which team is no.6 a better player that no.5 ?

Laxman was a better player of bounce and Ganguly was a better player of swing.... Laxman was better at defending spinners and Ganguly was better at hitting spinners....it was not always a clear case of Laxman being better than Ganguly.

 

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Openers and no.3 are different in test cricket because they need to see of the new ball.No4/5/6 are often based into their quality of their batting.

Not really.....lots of top batsmen batted at No.3 to No.6,  like Richards, Root, Ponting, Kallis etc.

 

 

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Batting with tail is something most players develop by playing in International cricket.Because they are mostly top order bat in their domestic teams .Also Laxman was actually I'll suited to bat with tail as he can't go for the big shots .Late in his career he developed a method which just shows the quality batsmen he is.

Batting with the tail has a lot to do with the temperament of the player, which Laxman had

Edited January 5, 2017 by express bowling

[BeautifulGame]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

After Ganguly's tenure, Laxman started coming in at No. 3 for some time when Dravid opened.  He was used at No.5 when Ganguly lost form and then again went back to No. 6 when Sourav started to play better and then again came back to No. 5 after Ganguly stopped playing tests.   Even during Ganguly's tenure, he batted at No. 5 and No. 3 in a significant number of  innings.

 

Ganguly batted mostly at No. 5 even after he was removed from captaincy....except the last 8 or 9 months of his test career.

 

Laxman was a better player of bounce and Ganguly was a better player of swing.... Laxman was better at defending spinners and Ganguly was better at hitting spinners....it was not always a clear case of Laxman being better than Ganguly.

 

Not really.....lots of top batsmen batted at No.3 to No.6,  like Richards, Root, Ponting, Kallis etc.

 

 

Batting with the tail has a lot to do with the temperament of the player, which Laxman had

 

Laxman averaged 47 @ no.5 ,Ganguly ave 37.Laxman was far superior batsman.

 

Richards,Root Ponting Kallis all batted at 6 till they were established in the team.Once established moved up the order unlike Laxman.Ponting and Richards batted most of their career at 3 and Kallis at 4

 

Laxman also had the temperament to play big hundreds.Unfortunately couldnt as he was shunted down to no6 .Scoring big hundreds is more important to winning test matches than batting with tail

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

Laxman averaged 47 @ no.5 ,Ganguly ave 37.Laxman was far superior batsman.

Laxman being the better batsman was not really the perception during the early 2000s.....both were held as 2nd rung....Tendulkar being the clear No.1 and Dravid also in the top league.

 

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Richards,Root Ponting Kallis all batted at 6 till they were established in the team.Once established moved up the order unlike Laxman.Ponting and Richards batted most of their career at 3 and Kallis at 4

You are forgetting your own point here....your earlier point being that No.3 batsmen are specialists and the position does not necessarily go to the best middle-order batsman.

 

 

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Laxman also had the temperament to play big hundreds.Unfortunately couldnt as he was shunted down to no6 .Scoring big hundreds is more important to winning test matches than batting with tail

 

Laxman batted at higher than No.6 in  147  of his 223 innings  Has only two  200+ and only  twelve 100+ scores in these higher batting positions.....hardly the stats for someone who is a big hundred player or even a big score player.

Edited January 5, 2017 by express bowling

[CG]

And yet Ganguly was not Captain when he made his comeback , Laxman batted ahead of him at 5.

Also in which team is no.6 a better player that no.5 ?

Openers and no.3 are different in test cricket because they need to see of the new ball.No4/5/6 are often based into their quality of their batting.

Batting with tail is something most players develop by playing in International cricket.Because they are mostly top order bat in their domestic teams .Also Laxman was actually I'll suited to bat with tail as he can't go for the big shots .Late in his career he developed a method which just shows the quality batsmen he is.

Batting with the tail has a lot to do with the temperament of the player, which Laxman had

There is no way Ganguly was better player of spin than laxman who probably was next only to Lara playing spin in WC.Ganguly played left-arm spin well and that's about it.

[BeautifulGame]

There is no way Ganguly was better player of spin than laxman who probably was next only to Lara playing spin in WC.Ganguly played left-arm spin well and that's about it.

Sehwag for me was definitely the best of spin in modern times even better than Lara /Sachin/VVS

[diga]

On 1/5/2017 at 1:05 PM, BeautifulGame said:

Pretty meaningless winning pointless Odis and getting knocked out in group stages in world cup and champions trophy

World cup loss can be attributed to off-field BCCI politics more than captaincy... OP doesnt exactly limit the captaincy debate to ODI's only. 

[Forever Indian]

On 1/5/2017 at 6:13 AM, express bowling said:

 

Ganguly captained India .....

 

In only one ODI world cup .... was  the finalist  in a tournament held in South Africa and lost in the final to the best ever  ODI team

 

In  zero World T20s

 

and 2 Champions Trophy  out of which he won 1.

 

never got a chance to captain a World Cup in India.

 

 

Dhoni captained India...

 

In 2 ODI World Cups....won 1  played in India  and reached  SF in the one held in Australia.

 

In 6 World T20s....won 1  played in South Africa  and was the finalist in another played in Bangladesh.

 

and in 2 Champions Trophy out of which he won 1.

 

Captained 1 ODI world Cup and 1 World T20 in India.

 

 

As Dhoni has actually won 1 World Cup  and 1 World T20....that would make him the best LOI captain from India.

 

 

But....it would be unfair to compare his captaincy with Ganguly in ICC events  as Ganguly never got a chance to captain a World Cup in India and did not get a chance to captain in a World T20 at all  while Dhoni captained in 6 and won 1.  Both have won 1 Champions trophy each.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Captaining in a WC final at home has never been an advantage as no home team had ever won a worldcup at home till India did it in 2011 (Srilanka were co-hosts in 1996 but the final took place in India). So home advantage in WC is actually way over-rated. You need to perform with whatever opportunities you are given.