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Escalation at India-China border

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17 minutes ago, raki05 said:

BC , chal kya raha hai....koi bol rha hai territory kabja kar liya hai, koi bol raha hai lac area occupy kiya hai, cong bol rahi hai 3500 km boundary occupy kar liya hai, modi bol raha hai kuch nahi hua hai.  Abey, kabja kiya hai ya nahi kiya hai koi bateyga ?????

There is LAC. There is disputed zone between LAC  Its like you and me are neigbours, we have boundry wall and then there is a strip of land between your house and my house. So we both were allowed to use it as path but we both object when one build a structure there or parks his car.

Thats my understanding

Edited by mishra

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2 minutes ago, mishra said:

There is LAC. There is disputed zone between LAC  Its like you and me are neigbours, we have boundry wall and then there is a strip of land between your house and my house. So we both were allowed to use it as path but we both object when one build a structure there or parks his car.

Thats my understanding

Thank you sir!!.....but there are people endlessly blaberring that China has occupied our territory . Even cong and most of the opposition are talking the same thing. If they have occupied some post in LAC boundary which was in hibernation zone than we can say it's illegal occupation to disputed territory but that was not Indian territory at first place may be some post ,which hopefully in winter we can take it back.

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15 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Thank you sir!!.....but there are people endlessly blaberring that China has occupied our territory . Even cong and most of the opposition are talking the same thing. If they have occupied some post in LAC boundary which was in hibernation zone than we can say it's illegal occupation to disputed territory but that was not Indian territory at first place may be some post ,which hopefully in winter we can take it back.

Issue is, access to disputed territory if structure is built by Chinese in that area.i don’t mind Rahul ji making such noises as it helps negotiation

Edited by mishra

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Looks like China wishes nothing but a limited war to protect its Karakoram pass.  India should categorically let them know that limited war is not a option ie we are prepared to open battle front with Pakistan Gilgit Baltistan area. Let them know that we will fire first in Gilgit area and cut off CPEC. Atleast increase Heavy military buildup towards CPEC zone to send the message.
 

I am certain Chinese want to protect CPEC and nothing else. On day 1 itself, bomb that stretch.

Edited by mishra

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21 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

No bhai or Bollywood placartists have commented anything else chinese aggression and jawan martyrs . We call them heroes. Shame on them.

 

 

Do you know ho much money Amir has made in the Chinese market?  Its literally tens of millions of dollars.  Why would the Indian movie industry jeopardize a hugely profitable market, over a border skirmish where the border itself is undefined.  

 

Its easy to criticize these people, and I get that, but let's use a bit of logic. If it came to us, we'd be adopting the same approach.  

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6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Do you know ho much money Amir has made in the Chinese market?  Its literally tens of millions of dollars.  Why would the Indian movie industry jeopardize a hugely profitable market, over a border skirmish where the border itself is undefined.  

 

Its easy to criticize these people, and I get that, but let's use a bit of logic. If it came to us, we'd be adopting the same approach.  

The problem is hypocrisy. They seem to have an opinion on everything under the sun except for an actual border dispute and martyrdom of the soldiers of their own country.

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3 minutes ago, maniac said:

The problem is hypocrisy. They seem to have an opinion on everything under the sun except for an actual border dispute and martyrdom of the soldiers of their own country.

As public figures, they are open to criticism on everything under the sun, including hypocrisy.  Fire away.  I have no sympathy for the plastic brats. 

 

I was just making a point about economic incentives and how they apply to most folks.

Edited by sandeep

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50 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Do you know ho much money Amir has made in the Chinese market?  Its literally tens of millions of dollars.  Why would the Indian movie industry jeopardize a hugely profitable market, over a border skirmish where the border itself is undefined.  

 

Its easy to criticize these people, and I get that, but let's use a bit of logic. If it came to us, we'd be adopting the same approach.  

I know how much they allegedly make from China, who know how much is laundered there from black to white to show legit collections. But , I am pointing to the hypocrisy, when they make such insensitive public videos when the public sentiment was against China for spreading the virus and now for border incursions. They don't say nothing about our jawans, but come out with placards and intolerance remarks when it is time to shame Indians and Hindus. I was lamenting on the fact these people are called heroes and are venerated by youthiyas of India.

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https://indianexpress.com/article/india/chinese-building-helipad-in-pangong-tso-massing-troops-on-southern-bank-of-lake-6478087/

 

Chinese consolidating hold on Finger4, now with a helipad.  

 

Indian army was sleeping while the Chinese grabbed Finger 4 and built up an immovable position. 

 

For all intents and purposes, now Indian border for Pangong Tso, ends there now.  

 

Question is, where else have the Chinese done this?  Or in the process of doing it? Are they being stopped? Can they be stopped without a full-blown shooting conflict?  Or another Galwan-esque bloody brawl? 

 

Chinese clearly recognized Indian efforts at building roads as a game-changer - 2-3 years down the road, they would not be able to pull off what they are doing now.  Indian logistics and border presence would have been beefed up even more.  

 

For better or worse, its not the worst thing if the PLA action finally starts converting the LAC from this undefined wide amorphous zone, into a harder, more solidified line of actual control.  

 

Would have been good if Indian army hadn't been as incompetent and not allowed the Chinese to grab Finger 4 though.  

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10 hours ago, sandeep said:

Do you know ho much money Amir has made in the Chinese market?  Its literally tens of millions of dollars.  Why would the Indian movie industry jeopardize a hugely profitable market, over a border skirmish where the border itself is undefined.  

 

Its easy to criticize these people, and I get that, but let's use a bit of logic. If it came to us, we'd be adopting the same approach.  

You are justifying this behavior. Let me guess it just shows indians INSECURITY. ? Lol 

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very good to see we have preemptively deployed the T90 Ms tank at the border. It very well suited to mountain warfare. Has a range of accuracy upto 6km. I dont think we will be outgunned. Just the right balance of being nimble and protected. One of the few defence products the Russians have got spot on.

 

I remember having an argument with somebody who was very pro Arjun mbt. It was too fat to be deployed on 70% of India's borders. The Runn of Katch and plains maybe (even there it had an issue with being bogged down). As with Tejas the Indian army had way too many demands. The extra additions meant more weight and the core tank design being lost. Should have just used the T72 as a base and tried to make incremental modifications.

 

 

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17 hours ago, sandeep said:

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/chinese-building-helipad-in-pangong-tso-massing-troops-on-southern-bank-of-lake-6478087/

 

Chinese consolidating hold on Finger4, now with a helipad.  

 

Indian army was sleeping while the Chinese grabbed Finger 4 and built up an immovable position. 

 

For all intents and purposes, now Indian border for Pangong Tso, ends there now.  

 

Question is, where else have the Chinese done this?  Or in the process of doing it? Are they being stopped? Can they be stopped without a full-blown shooting conflict?  Or another Galwan-esque bloody brawl? 

 

Chinese clearly recognized Indian efforts at building roads as a game-changer - 2-3 years down the road, they would not be able to pull off what they are doing now.  Indian logistics and border presence would have been beefed up even more.  

 

For better or worse, its not the worst thing if the PLA action finally starts converting the LAC from this undefined wide amorphous zone, into a harder, more solidified line of actual control.  

 

Would have been good if Indian army hadn't been as incompetent and not allowed the Chinese to grab Finger 4 though.  

Thanks for sharing ....also From the article

 

"India’s main base is close to Finger 3, around two kilometres west of the current Chinese deployment. The Indian side also has an administrative base closer to Finger 4, at the start of the sharp rocky feature. It is around this area that the Army has now deployed itself in response to the sudden Chinese deployment in the area. Less than 500 metres separate soldiers of both sides at this faceoff point."

 

it is very cold area all through the year and the lake gets frozen..so I am thinking this issue could go on 2 more months max.

Edited by randomGuy

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3 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

I read it is not possible to hold the mountains due to harsh climate..

Don't believe convenient "facts".  When they build up concrete bunkers, helipads etc, they aren't just going to allow the Indian army to walk in and take it.  If India can maintain presence on Siachen glacier...

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34 minutes ago, sandeep said:

They have built up permanent structures on that beachhead by Finger4, and grabbed the heights on F4.  They are there to stay.  

 

 

Not permanent,they are temporary but also learnt they made a helipad there,

Impossible to stay during winters

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5 hours ago, Norman said:

We're deploying tanks ? :shock:

 

I thought both sides agreed to de-escalate. 

 

 

Better safe than sorry.

 

Once bitter twice shy.

 

These roads we building on borders. I think a tank will be able to reach our borders on the lac within 24 hours.

 

 

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3 hours ago, sandeep said:

Don't believe convenient "facts".  When they build up concrete bunkers, helipads etc, they aren't just going to allow the Indian army to walk in and take it.  If India can maintain presence on Siachen glacier...

We abandon the glacier in winter months...

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4 hours ago, sandeep said:

Don't believe convenient "facts".  When they build up concrete bunkers, helipads etc, they aren't just going to allow the Indian army to walk in and take it.  If India can maintain presence on Siachen glacier...


so, practical advice, don’t get excited over escalation or de-escalation. China has been Involved in incursions since 1950s, so they come in and we retaliate, but this time after 2013, certainly the response is different and more stringent.

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China has the whole world by the balls. The 21st century superpower is not Amreeka, but China. As detestable the Chinese Communist Party is they have brought the whole world to its knees and literally toying with Do-lund's Amreeka. So then what is a do-takey ka Chaiwalla going to do? Suck it up and continue buying Chinese! :giggle:

 

China has become Dilli ka laddoo now ... They are playing their cards and winning!

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Chinese deployed S-400. Russian sold second shipment of S-400 in Feb -2020 to China.

 

I have no qualms to accept that S-400 will do its job unless we get some support.

 

But question remains. How much Russia knew?

How much planning went into this Chinese game?

 

I have a feeling that India China relations may go to point of no return same way as India Pakistan

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5 hours ago, Ranvir said:

It looks like India is always reactive and not proactive when it comes to armed conflicts. It's embarrassing.

India has no first mover advantage. It can only react, and if anything, there is at least some reaction unlike Congress governments..

 

 

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11 minutes ago, someone said:

India has no first mover advantage. It can only react, and if anything, there is at least some reaction unlike Congress governments..

 

 

I am no Modi fan, as some of the more enthusiastic Bhakts on this forum are well aware - but you cannot fault him for the current situation.  If anything, under this administration, the border road building has been prioritized even more.  Which is what led to the the Chinese realizing that the window was starting to close where they had a massively lop-sided tactical and logistical advantage on the ground.  That's why they are trying to 'lock in' maximum gains on the LAC.  

 

As much as I detest the CCP, and don't want the country's resources to be wasted/spent on conflict - I am actually very grateful to the stupidity of the CCP.  They have delivered us a very good wake-up call to our entire government, political establishment as well as our business folks.  This dumb plan to 'bully' India only for the sake of grabbing some "tactical' heights in barren landscapes, will shake India out of its complacency, and may even be a major turning point in policy-making.  I expect India to speed up its alignment with US/AUS/JPN on the foreign policy front, and really make a strong effort to prioritize manufacturing.  Supported with consumer demand and selective boycotts, local businesses will get a major opportunity, and hopefully long overdue reforms and infrastructure projects also move forward.

 

If only the Chinese had kept things going quietly, they probably could have made the same land gains, over a longer timeframe, without actively confronting India.

 

Turning a lazy complacent 'non-aligned' country into one that's awake to the threat of Chinese dominance is a major strategic blunder.  They should have boiling the frog at slow heat, instead, they turned the burner to high. 

 

Greed and Arrogance leads to foolishness - Confucious probably said that at some point.

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On 6/30/2020 at 11:34 PM, sandeep said:

I am no Modi fan, as some of the more enthusiastic Bhakts on this forum are well aware - but you cannot fault him for the current situation.  If anything, under this administration, the border road building has been prioritized even more.  Which is what led to the the Chinese realizing that the window was starting to close where they had a massively lop-sided tactical and logistical advantage on the ground.  That's why they are trying to 'lock in' maximum gains on the LAC.  

 

As much as I detest the CCP, and don't want the country's resources to be wasted/spent on conflict - I am actually very grateful to the stupidity of the CCP.  They have delivered us a very good wake-up call to our entire government, political establishment as well as our business folks.  This dumb plan to 'bully' India only for the sake of grabbing some "tactical' heights in barren landscapes, will shake India out of its complacency, and may even be a major turning point in policy-making.  I expect India to speed up its alignment with US/AUS/JPN on the foreign policy front, and really make a strong effort to prioritize manufacturing.  Supported with consumer demand and selective boycotts, local businesses will get a major opportunity, and hopefully long overdue reforms and infrastructure projects also move forward.

 

If only the Chinese had kept things going quietly, they probably could have made the same land gains, over a longer timeframe, without actively confronting India.

 

Turning a lazy complacent 'non-aligned' country into one that's awake to the threat of Chinese dominance is a major strategic blunder.  They should have boiling the frog at slow heat, instead, they turned the burner to high. 

 

Greed and Arrogance leads to foolishness - Confucious probably said that at some point.

Very good point.

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On 6/30/2020 at 2:04 PM, sandeep said:

I am no Modi fan, as some of the more enthusiastic Bhakts on this forum are well aware - but you cannot fault him for the current situation.  If anything, under this administration, the border road building has been prioritized even more.  Which is what led to the the Chinese realizing that the window was starting to close where they had a massively lop-sided tactical and logistical advantage on the ground.  That's why they are trying to 'lock in' maximum gains on the LAC.  

 

As much as I detest the CCP, and don't want the country's resources to be wasted/spent on conflict - I am actually very grateful to the stupidity of the CCP.  They have delivered us a very good wake-up call to our entire government, political establishment as well as our business folks.  This dumb plan to 'bully' India only for the sake of grabbing some "tactical' heights in barren landscapes, will shake India out of its complacency, and may even be a major turning point in policy-making.  I expect India to speed up its alignment with US/AUS/JPN on the foreign policy front, and really make a strong effort to prioritize manufacturing.  Supported with consumer demand and selective boycotts, local businesses will get a major opportunity, and hopefully long overdue reforms and infrastructure projects also move forward.

 

If only the Chinese had kept things going quietly, they probably could have made the same land gains, over a longer timeframe, without actively confronting India.

 

Turning a lazy complacent 'non-aligned' country into one that's awake to the threat of Chinese dominance is a major strategic blunder.  They should have boiling the frog at slow heat, instead, they turned the burner to high. 

 

Greed and Arrogance leads to foolishness - Confucious probably said that at some point.

May be they don’t want to. They feel US power is waning. US wants and only deals in money with its NATO nations as well. They have good understanding of DJT and he will allow China be China. They feel this might the opportunity to be become numero uno of world powers. China has enough financial and political power over Europe. The only problem they had was with US but it’s all business for US now. John Bolton book mentioned trump was ok to ignore India over China. Only India can protect it self. No one will help us. They do control Pakistan, Nepal and srilanka. We are surrounded  on all sides. A remember a India army rtd officer had predicted this long time ago. If you are attacked on all sides can India take it ?

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1 hour ago, gattaca said:

May be they don’t want to. They feel US power is waning. US wants and only deals in money with its NATO nations as well. They have good understanding of DJT and he will allow China be China. They feel this might the opportunity to be become numero uno of world powers. China has enough financial and political power over Europe. The only problem they had was with US but it’s all business for US now. John Bolton book mentioned trump was ok to ignore India over China. Only India can protect it self. No one will help us. They do control Pakistan, Nepal and srilanka. We are surrounded  on all sides. A remember a India army rtd officer had predicted this long time ago. If you are attacked on all sides can India take it ?

We are not "surrounded".  SL or Nepal being hostile to India is a Pakistani wet dream. Even the Bangladeshis aren't going to go that route.  

 

And the Pakistanis are so deep in hock, even if their greedy lootera military wants to fight with India, they have not left their country in any condition to realistically try this.  

 

We are just dealing with the scheming fat panda, who thought that they can make India blink - and to be honest, as far as finger 4 and other areas where they are already squatting - they may be right. 

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6 hours ago, mishra said:

A very good and balanced article. Looks like factually correct too. No wonder both India and China have issue in explaining this to their general population

https://fijisun.com.fj/2020/07/02/india-china-faceoff-was-it-inevitable/

no, its not "factually correct".  Throwing around concepts like the Malacca dilemma, while lacking the basic understanding to recognize that Gwadar and CPEC cannot ever offer any sort of realistic alternative for oil imports, automatically means that this "smart boy" analysis belongs in the trash can.

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1 hour ago, gattaca said:

May be they don’t want to. They feel US power is waning. US wants and only deals in money with its NATO nations as well. They have good understanding of DJT and he will allow China be China. They feel this might the opportunity to be become numero uno of world powers. China has enough financial and political power over Europe. The only problem they had was with US but it’s all business for US now. John Bolton book mentioned trump was ok to ignore India over China. Only India can protect it self. No one will help us. They do control Pakistan, Nepal and srilanka. We are surrounded  on all sides. A remember a India army rtd officer had predicted this long time ago. If you are attacked on all sides can India take it ?

Lets be absolutely certain on one thing. For China, this fight is for trade route. For India, This fight is for its borders. Jaishankar has made it very clear that both nations have red lines and mutual interests. What it means is, India is saying to China that they wont have to worry about CPEC route from Indian side as long as we are allowed to secure the border.

 

However, Chinese do not think that they can control/sell pro China narrative in 1.4 billion strength democracy compared to 250 million strength autocracy. At the same time they cant afford enmity with 1.4 billion big nation.

 

Whatever way they want to sell this to their people and world, but imo, it was very calculated move by them, however what they miscalculated was courage and valour of Bihar regiment , Santosh Babu and his men simply turned upside down, all their board room planning. Just take one step back, Think about whole situation if 15th June Galwan battle didnt happened. By giving his life, Santosh Babu and his men, Gave India a lot of ammunition in current stand off.

 

The more I think, I feel Dadhichi has new name. Santosh Babu

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20 minutes ago, sandeep said:

no, its not "factually correct".  Throwing around concepts like the Malacca dilemma, while lacking the basic understanding to recognize that Gwadar and CPEC cannot ever offer any sort of realistic alternative for oil imports, automatically means that this "smart boy" analysis belongs in the trash can.

Some thing can be argued, But for China, Its all about backup plan. CPEC is the backup plan for them. If you carefuly look at map of international map of India. There is Indian Map, Then on that there is dotted line for LAC between India china which cuts a segment of Laddakh but there is another dotted line, called LoC between India Pakistan. The LoC ends in J&K and doestn cuts the laddakh , ie there is a part of India in Himalayas where CPEC goes through. All it needs is a Infrastructure and will of GoI to demarcate that regions. China or Pakistan can not wriggle out of this Leh, to Karakoram is just couple of Years. Pakistan cand do anything about it, But China can. and this whole standoff is all about bringing India on a table to halt the infra build or get some assurance.

 

Santosh Babu screwed whole plan of Chinese

Edited by mishra

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2 hours ago, sandeep said:

We are not "surrounded".  SL or Nepal being hostile to India is a Pakistani wet dream. Even the Bangladeshis aren't going to go that route.  

 

And the Pakistanis are so deep in hock, even if their greedy lootera military wants to fight with India, they have not left their country in any condition to realistically try this.  

 

We are just dealing with the scheming fat panda, who thought that they can make India blink - and to be honest, as far as finger 4 and other areas where they are already squatting - they may be right. 

Its not about Lanka and Nepal retaliating its access to port and different places that can we can be attacked that is major concern if a war breaks out. 

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2 hours ago, mishra said:

Lets be absolutely certain on one thing. For China, this fight is for trade route. For India, This fight is for its borders. Jaishankar has made it very clear that both nations have red lines and mutual interests. What it means is, India is saying to China that they wont have to worry about CPEC route from Indian side as long as we are allowed to secure the border.

 

However, Chinese do not think that they can control/sell pro China narrative in 1.4 billion strength democracy compared to 250 million strength autocracy. At the same time they cant afford enmity with 1.4 billion big nation.

 

Whatever way they want to sell this to their people and world, but imo, it was very calculated move by them, however what they miscalculated was courage and valour of Bihar regiment , Santosh Babu and his men simply turned upside down, all their board room planning. Just take one step back, Think about whole situation if 15th June Galwan battle didnt happened. By giving his life, Santosh Babu and his men, Gave India a lot of ammunition in current stand off.

 

The more I think, I feel Dadhichi has new name. Santosh Babu

Which trade route you are talking about ? They occupied Aksai Chin and own POK. They already have it ?

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43 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Which trade route you are talking about ? They occupied Aksai Chin and own POK. They already have it ?

Not just PoK, They own Pakistan. But, they can not sleep walk 1.5 billion Chinese into a nuclear war. So, No, they don’t and cant afford military aggression which may have reaction. 

They can not convince world to go to war with India if say India completes  unfinished LoC ( Pakistan one , check position of CPEC karakoram, Aksai Chin Siachen) without dropping a single blood. 
 

Leh was allways in reach but, DBO Road is designed by military with military objectives. For example, There is a lake along CPEC, just reach to that lake and get rid of bridge and put boats in. Easier said then done but putting boats in Pangong tso will give enough knowhow.

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Gwadar is a total flop. Fundamentally there is just no demand to use it. They have plans on paper for 150 berths. May as well burn money. What should have happened is they should have just created a port so Pakistan could import oil when Karachi was blocked as was case in 1999. I,e there was a military case for a port. This should have been a basic port. Instead it became like a grandiose mission of sorts.

 

Atleast Chabbar is actually used for Indian trade with Iran and central asia. I.e there is some basic supply and demand principles in place. So India has access to base in Tajiskistan via Afghanistan and can also trade with central asia keeping Pakistan out of the picture.

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/chabahar-port-sets-record-of-loading-76-teus-from-iran-to-india/articleshow/76750215.cms

 

In time to come (maybe in a post Trump USA) I feel that USA will also use Chabbar to access Afghanistan (non military)

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/iran-chabahar-port-spared-sanctions-rare-cooperation-200620161933575.html

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