About time SC banned Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and RSS

[Muloghonto]

They are nothing more than hinduvta terrorists. Random violence against minorities, random violence against Hindus who do not conform to their medieval interpretation of Hinduism, these groups should be banned and their members better off converting to Islam than sully the name of Hinduism.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Muloghonto

[beetle]

 

Agree.They are just Gundaas.

It's time people started catching these good for nothing losers and thrashed them.

Edited February 19, 2017 by beetle

[Muloghonto]

22 minutes ago, beetle said:

 

Agree.They are just Gundaas.

It's time people started catching these good for nothing losers and thrashed them.

Or, we as a people can demand our government starts spending more on justice department (police & courts) instead of spending billions on the military that is never going to go to mass scale war and get these Gundaas arrested and prosecuted, down to the last man.

beating them up, will not solve the problem, it will only cause more lawlessness.

 

[vayuu1]

 

They are nothing more than hinduvta terrorists. Random violence against minorities, random violence against Hindus who do not conform to their medieval interpretation of Hinduism, these groups should be banned and their members better off converting to Islam than sully the name of Hinduism.

 

 

 

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If they are terrorist than what do you make of those who do maldah and dhulagarh, who are radicalizing keralites, bengalis etc what do you make if those elites like nivedita the professor of jnu giving anti India speeches, those missionaries converting people, agree the attack on northies are uncalled far, but they are infinitely times better than those taiba's, bhasda's and simi etc that are hurting our people even naxalities so please no comparison with mullah's.

[Muloghonto]

24 minutes ago, vayuu1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

If they are terrorist than what do you make of those who do maldah and dhulagarh, who are radicalizing keralites, bengalis etc what do you make if those elites like nivedita the professor of jnu giving anti India speeches, those missionaries converting people, agree the attack on northies are uncalled far, but they are infinitely times better than those taiba's, bhasda's and simi etc that are hurting our people even naxalities so please no comparison with mullah's.

 

They are also terrorists. It is standard tactic of terrorist sympathizers- be it hinduvta, islamist, christian or commie- to promptly point out how there are other evil people out there who are not aligned with them. As if anyone said hinduvta jaahils are the ONLY problem...

 

They are all in the same boat. Hinduvta, Islamism, evangelists, maoists- they are all batting for the same side- the side against freedom, equality, rights & progress for all.

 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

@Tibarn

[zen]

The Indian education system needs a few changes. Instead of dumping students with extensive math, science, etc., first the focus should be on laying a solid foundation in morals, ethics, discipline, community focus, communication skills, etc. 

 

Irrespective of religion or race, many Indians (and other from subcon too), behave badly when they go and live abroad too. Indiscipline can be seen in how many park their cars (at times blocking pedestrian walkways in malls), in cinemas, etc.  

 

Flights back to Ind, esp after the changeover is Europe where people from various connecting flights gather, are a nightmare. Taking about films, I avoid watching Bollywood films in cinemas mainly because all sort of characters spring up at the shows. Recently, watched Raees in UAVX where reserved seating is in place. Was expecting no trouble this time. However was surprised to find the seats that I had reserved occupied. When I politely asked the occupants to leave, they argued it is their seats even when the number clearly showed it wasn't theirs. There's was DD, which I guess is extreme front row seats. My reservation was D. And they were arguing D is DD. A harsher tone made them leave the seats. Come on! 

 

Culture problem 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

^

All these need to happen. But we need to ban & impose serious consequences on people AND their religious affiliated organizations (insert name of a million muslim organizations & a few hindu ones such as VHP,RSS, BJ,SS, etc, add a few commie Naxalite/Maoist groups to the watch list) and impose sanctions on them. 

This is organized & affiliated activities that are direct, criminal acts on their fellow citizens.  Organization should bear full force of the law.

Had ho gayi. This whole 'look at the other side, they are 100x worse' argument has got to end to wish away fascist behaviour increasingly displayed by Hinduva elements.
Yes, they are 'nannhe- bachchey right now' compared to the hardcore SIMI/Jamaat type jihad-mongrers. But they also represent a genuine threat, because they can tap into a vastly superior demographics to kill freedom & human rights in the name of 'fighting the enemy'.

At this point, i am almost wishing for a total jurisprudence ban and sanction on ANY religious & political entity that have links with illegal,criminal acts.
We need to stop being kathputli to these religious-political movements and straight up, separate ALL civic laws from religion & bring full force of the law to ANY organization that displays such acts with impunity.

Your culture is not going to change 'from within' when the powers-that-be/entities commit these acts and get away with said acts. That is not positive reinforcement or delivering the message of consequences for a 'culture to change'. 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

Heck, i wonder how much Indians would support the whole justice system expansion if any government has the BALLS to make that a budgetary priority. 

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

^

All these need to happen. But we need to ban & impose serious consequences on people AND their religious affiliated organizations (insert name of a million muslim organizations & a few hindu ones such as VHP,RSS, BJ,SS, etc, add a few commie Naxalite/Maoist groups to the watch list) and impose sanctions on them. 

This is organized & affiliated activities that are direct, criminal acts on their fellow citizens.  Organization should bear full force of the law.

Had ho gayi. This whole 'look at the other side, they are 100x worse' argument has got to end to wish away fascist behaviour increasingly displayed by Hinduva elements.
Yes, they are 'nannhe- bachchey right now' compared to the hardcore SIMI/Jamaat type jihad-mongrers. But they also represent a genuine threat, because they can tap into a vastly superior demographics to kill freedom & human rights in the name of 'fighting the enemy'.

At this point, i am almost wishing for a total jurisprudence ban and sanction on ANY religious & political entity that have links with illegal,criminal acts.
We need to stop being kathputli to these religious-political movements and straight up, separate ALL civic laws from religion & bring full force of the law to ANY organization that displays such acts with impunity.

Your culture is not going to change 'from within' when the powers-that-be/entities commit these acts and get away with said acts. That is not positive reinforcement or delivering the message of consequences for a 'culture to change'. 

 

 

IMO, banning = solving for symptoms. Culture change is solving at the roots 

 

Take Saudi Arabia's draconian system for e.g. That will change when the culture in that part of the world changes 

Edited February 19, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

IMO, banning = solving for symptoms. Culture change is solving at the roots 

 

Take Saudi Arabia's draconian laws for e.g. Those will change when the culture in that part of the world changes 

You won't have culture change,when these groups get away with what they do. 

 

What is your objection to targeting Bajrang Dal or Shiv Sena for sanctions when they commit crimes in the name of their party ?

 

Watch the above video.  The criminal beatings administered, is done by people under the name of Shiv Sena, who are members of Shiv Sena. This is decisive, party-produced criminal activity that Shiv Sena *must* be beholden for.

And calling them 'symptoms' is just washing your hands off actually doing something decisive that discourages beating people up without consequences in the name of culture/religion. That is ass-backwards idea of wishing there is culture change but people also get away with manmani that you WANT to change. Rewarding the criminals by resisting their prosecution, is surely an unheard-of tactic of fighting said criminal problem.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

23 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You won't have culture change,when these groups get away with what they do. 

What is your objection to targeting Bajrang Dal or Shiv Sena for sanctions when they commit crimes in the name of their party. Watch the above video.  The criminal beatings administered, is done by people under the name of Shiv Sena, who are members of Shiv Sena. This is decisive, party-produced criminal activity that Shiv Sena *must* be beholden for.

And calling them 'symptoms' is just washing your hands off actually doing something decisive that discourages beating people up without consequences in the name of culture/religion. That is ass-backwards idea of wishing there is culture change but people also get away with manmani that you WANT to change. Rewarding the criminals by resisting their prosecution, is surely an unheard-of tactic of fighting said criminal problem.

 

There is a distinction b/w parties commiting such acts and people of such parties carrying out such acts. The mischievous elements should be arrested just like any goonda in the streets. A VHP/RSS supporter could see such events/trends as disturbing too

 

Tomorrow, one could go a step further and argue that ban religions too because the mischievous elements believe in it. Banning religions will have xyz positive effects on society 

 

These problems arise because countries like Ind are at cultural crossroads. One section believes that it is ok for boys and girls to be friends, another equates such kind of relationships (even innocent) with "daal main kuch kala". Let's not forget the problem of rapes

 

So an effort towards cultural change will bring everyone on the same page wrt acceptable playing rules. Ind does not need to be either Western inclined or Saudi inclined, but crave out its own cultural identity 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

There is a distinction b/w parties commiting such acts and people of such parties carrying out such acts. The mischievous elements should be arrested just like any goonda in the streets. A VHP/RSS supporter could see such events/trends as disturbing too

Yes. As in, when they do it in their free time. When they organize as Party, under official party banner and ARE party members, its game, set & match against party. 

This is not 'oh no, you are twisting party morals in your free time we didnt know about', this is 'party getting together and committing heinous crimes'. Sanctions must follow for said party. Party didn't kick these people out. Or call the police on them. Yet, party knew of it, since its done by members of the party and is available through social media (thus, not secret cabal that is unknown). This makes part accessory to obstruction of justice, at the very least- which is a criminal act in most countries.

 

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Tomorrow, one could go a step further and argue that ban religions too because the mischievous elements believe in it. Banning religions will do xyz positive effects on society 

No, because banning religion would be banning personal freedom and free thought. So one cannot ban religion if one is beholden to human rights as inalienable.Your rights to think what you want to think and communicate it, is inalieable right under 'freedom of thought'.

 But right to oranize politically, CAN be regulated based on said political party's right to exist. Ie, one cannot ban people to get politically involved, but political parties are not entities that have a fundamental right to exist, so therefore, if parties such as BJP, Congress, SS, etc. commit criminal acts as a party, the party itself should face sanctions & consequences as an organization. That is a pretty straightforward concept, really.

But yes, any government involvement of ANY religion needs to be banned from existence beyond declaration of statutory holidays. Thats it. All rules are equal and any religious party barred from power, because religion and politics should NOT mix. by religious party, i mean a party that advocates legalism on the basis of a given religion- whether it is justifying a law based on Bhagavat Gita or Koran. 

I don't think many people actually believe mixing government and religion is a good idea.

 

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These problems arise because countries like Ind are at cultural crossroads. One section believes that it is ok for boys and girls to be friends, another equates such kind of relationships (even innocent) with "daal main kuch kala". Let's not forget the problem of rapes

 

So an effort towards cultural change will bring everyone on the same page wrt acceptable playing rules whatever they may be Western inclined or Saudi inclined

 

 

And i am saying you won't see any change, if criminals are giving positive reinforcement for crime. When criminal gets away with crime, its positive re-enforcement. When political parties get away with sanctioning criminal activities, they are seen as 'if you like beating up people for not believing what they do, go hide under the SS banner' they won't expel you, they will block prosecution for you and people will make exuses for you as a Shiv Sainik'. 
That is what your argument is effectively boiling down to, for shifting blame to culture, instead of combating the most OBVIOUS driver of culture- culture tilts the way culture is ALLOWED to spread. If we ALLOW gundagaardi to go unpunished, its not going to magically produce a culture of peaceniks and anti-goondas. It will produce a culture where this is tolerated even more. 

That is straightforward logic on why criminal acts need to be dealt with, instead of 'advocating wider cultural change and dismissing criminals as symptoms, not drivers of cultural change themselves'.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Muloghonto

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, vayuu1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If they are terrorist than what do you make of those who do maldah and dhulagarh, who are radicalizing keralites, bengalis etc what do you make if those elites like nivedita the professor of jnu giving anti India speeches, those missionaries converting people, agree the attack on northies are uncalled far, but they are infinitely times better than those taiba's, bhasda's and simi etc that are hurting our people even naxalities so please no comparison with mullah's.

2 wrongs don't make a right.  You should feel worse abut the idiots who do foolish things in the name of hindus, instead of finger pointing about "others".  

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes. As in, when they do it in their free time. When they organize as Party, under official party banner and ARE party members, its game, set & match against party. 

This is not 'oh no, you are twisting party morals in your free time we didnt know about', this is 'party getting together and committing heinous crimes'. Sanctions must follow for said party. Party didn't kick these people out. Or call the police on them. Yet, party knew of it, since its done by members of the party and is available through social media (thus, not secret cabal that is unknown). This makes part accessory to obstruction of justice, at the very least- which is a criminal act in most countries.

No, because banning religion would be banning personal freedom and free thought. So one cannot ban religion if one is beholden to human rights as inalienable.Your rights to think what you want to think and communicate it, is inalieable right under 'freedom of thought'.

 But right to oranize politically, CAN be regulated based on said political party's right to exist. Ie, one cannot ban people to get politically involved, but political parties are not entities that have a fundamental right to exist, so therefore, if parties such as BJP, Congress, SS, etc. commit criminal acts as a party, the party itself should face sanctions & consequences as an organization. That is a pretty straightforward concept, really.

But yes, any government involvement of ANY religion needs to be banned from existence beyond declaration of statutory holidays. Thats it. All rules are equal and any religious party barred from power, because religion and politics should NOT mix. by religious party, i mean a party that advocates legalism on the basis of a given religion- whether it is justifying a law based on Bhagavat Gita or Koran. 

I don't think many people actually believe mixing government and religion is a good idea.

And i am saying you won't see any change, if criminals are giving positive reinforcement for crime. When criminal gets away with crime, its positive re-enforcement. When political parties get away with sanctioning criminal activities, they are seen as 'if you like beating up people for not believing what they do, go hide under the SS banner' they won't expel you, they will block prosecution for you and people will make exuses for you as a Shiv Sainik'. 
That is what your argument is effectively boiling down to, for shifting blame to culture, instead of combating the most OBVIOUS driver of culture- culture tilts the way culture is ALLOWED to spread. If we ALLOW gundagaardi to go unpunished, its not going to magically produce a culture of peaceniks and anti-goondas. It will produce a culture where this is tolerated even more. 

That is straightforward logic on why criminal acts need to be dealt with, instead of 'advocating wider cultural change and dismissing criminals as symptoms, not drivers of cultural change themselves'.

 

 

The key point is that many people in Ind see certain "Western" type of behavior as alien to Indian culture. Are they right or wrong, we can't decide as it has to be decided by concensus on where Ind wants to go 

 

What can be seen as inappropriate is the way in which many resort to goondagiri to show their PoV. And this is where the problem lies and where action should be taken 

 

If these elements can demonstrate their PoV through more appropriate means, a social media campaign, etc, it is totally acceptable because as I said where Ind wants to go culturally should be decided through concensus 

 

Talking about banning is equalivalent to those asking for bans resorting to extreme tactics too because they feel they are on the right side 

 

To reiterate, where Ind wants to go culturally should be decided through a concensus. India culture isnt totally western inclined, neither it is totally  Saudi type inclined. It is somewhere in the middle. By setting up new playing rules appropriate to Ind's culture, such frictions would be resolved 

Edited February 19, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

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The key point is that many people in Ind see certain "Western" type of behavior as alien to Indian culture. Are they right or wrong, we can't decide as it has to be decided by concensus on where Ind wants to go 

Whether those type of behaviour is right or wrong, assault, is straight-up assault. Cannot be condoned.

 

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What can be seen as inappropriate is the way in which many resort to goondagiri to show their PoV. And this is where the problem lies and where action should be taken 

 

If these elements can demonstrate their PoV through more appropriate means, a social media campaign, etc, it is totally acceptable because as I said where Ind wants to go culturally should be decided through concensus 

 

Ok. So go give as much bhaashan as possible on it. Why are you disagreeing then, that political parties that tolerate these kind of behaviour are accessory to gundagardi and need action against them ?!

 

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Talking about banning is equalivalent to those asking for bans resorting to extreme tactics too because they feel they are on the right side 

A criminal's feelings are irrelevant. A criminal suffers consequence of breaking law. Pretty straightforward there. If parties support these behaviour, they need to be censured over it. Again, i see no problem with that. 
A party has to demonstrate it is not aiding and abetting criminal activity. That means taking independent action against people who commit crimes.

If these people are not straight-up expelled by Shiv Sena, reported to the cops and all access granted for their prosecution, Shiv Sena cannot argue it isn't culpable for aiding & abetting, since these are happening under official party banner.

And when that doesn't happen, why should parties then not suffer consequence ?

 

 

[zen]

36 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Whether those type of behaviour is right or wrong, assault, is straight-up assault. Cannot be condoned.

 

Ok. So go give as much bhaashan as possible on it. Why are you disagreeing then, that political parties that tolerate these kind of behaviour are accessory to gundagardi and need action against them ?!

 

A criminal's feelings are irrelevant. A criminal suffers consequence of breaking law. Pretty straightforward there. If parties support these behaviour, they need to be censured over it. Again, i see no problem with that. 
A party has to demonstrate it is not aiding and abetting criminal activity. That means taking independent action against people who commit crimes.

If these people are not straight-up expelled by Shiv Sena, reported to the cops and all access granted for their prosecution, Shiv Sena cannot argue it isn't culpable for aiding & abetting, since these are happening under official party banner.

And when that doesn't happen, why should parties then not suffer consequence ?

 

 

Already said those who do goondagirdi should be punished accordingly .... Parties cannot be banned for having an opinion on what constitutes as Indian culture 

 

When law takes its course, justice is automatically served. A theif wouldn't be banned from society once he completes his time. Nor his family banned because of the theif 

 

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

They are nothing more than hinduvta terrorists. Random violence against minorities, random violence against Hindus who do not conform to their medieval interpretation of Hinduism, these groups should be banned and their members better off converting to Islam than sully the name of Hinduism.

 

 

 

 

 

As I said, Ind culture is neither western inclined nor saudi type inclined (for a lack of proper name). It is somewhere in between. Since it is at a crossroad, such friction is always on the cards  

 

Where Ind wants to go culturally in future would be decided through concensus (or how media shapes opinion - "manufacturing concent")

 

Let's not forget that one of the things that colonial powers did was try to portray local culture as backward to create a psychological upper hand and right to rule 

 

So the issues are much deeper  

 

As for me, I see everyone as human being first and in terms of gender/etc second. Since, humans have hijacked the planet, I keep animal rights higher than human rights as we are duty bound to protect other living things and environment 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Already said those who do goondagirdi should be punished accordingly .... Parties cannot be banned for having an opinion on what constitutes as Indian culture 

Nobody is asking for parties to be banned for having an opinion on what Indian culture should be. But when those 'should be's are religion driven, then separation of religion and government does become an issue.A party can and should be banned if they wish to form a position that 'Indian laws need to be consistent with this or that religious book' because that is, explicitly,mixing religion and politics. 

 

Regardless what cannot be argued against, is that parties should be banned if illegal actions are taken under the name of the party, by party members and party fails to respond. Can we agree on that ? Because that is directly aiding and abetting.

To use your example on criminal and family - no, family is not responsible- unless family is sheltering/protecting the criminal and withholding information that proves criminality. That is called 'aiding and abetting' and hell yes, that is a crime. When a party has its members officially, under its banner, commit crime and then fails to respond negatively against said perpetrators of its own accord, the party becomes just as guilty of being aiding and abetting crime. Do you agree with that and if not, why ?

 

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Let's not forget that one of the things that colonial powers did was try to portray local culture as backward to create a psychological upper hand and right to rule 

Yep. And we can acknowledge that British exploited local culture's warts and ills to manufacture a superior narrative and still acknowledge that it WAS/IS an ill that we need to get rid of. Just because the colonialists poked fun at us for idiotic practices and called themselves superior race, now that we don't think they are superior race, doesn't mean we accept our idiotic practices either.

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

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Where Ind wants to go culturally in future would be decided through concensus (or how media shapes opinion - "manufacturing concent")

 

To an extent. Majoritism has its limitations too. If tomorrow the majority decieded its ok to turn Dalits into slaves, what then ? 
So we should define what are inalienable rights that not even majority can violate. 

[Texan]

Agree that Shiv Sena and Bajrang Dal are filled with plenty of goons who just want to disrupt normal life. All these goons and their masters should be thrown in the jail. RSS on the other hand, is a social organization and though they may have some goons too (just like every poplitical party does), they are not as violent as they are maligned in the media. I am all for banning the first two groups, but there are others who are probably even worse.

 

How about the goons that the CPM and the Trinamool unleash in Bengal? Those guys are even worse because they don't even let free and fair elections get conducted as they threaten voters.

 

 

 

How about banning Laloo Prasad Yadav and his entire political circus that he runs - the infamous Jungle Raj? How about both Mayawati and MSY? The list seems to be getting bigger...