Shami over Pandya/Ash?

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, bleaf27 said:

You cannot waste a spot in a team just because you think that he may get a chance to bat and that he might score 20-25 runs. 

If batting is concern , why not bring Karthik in for Ashwin/Jadeja and Shami for Pandya  -  Bowling gets stronger and batting gets stronger 

You pick the team to cover all the bases. Pandya is there to provide a flourish in the death overs or to score quickly if needed. just because he wasn't needed, other than Game 1, doesn't mean he's redundant. Think of it as an insurance policy - you don't want to ever use it but when shyte happens you're glad you have one.

 

We don't know for sure our top order will fire for certain in the final given Pakistan's bowling n the last few matches so it makes sense to stay the course instead of weakening the batting in a final where the pressure will be more.

[bleaf27]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

You pick the team to cover all the bases. Pandya is there to provide a flourish in the death overs or to score quickly if needed. just because he wasn't needed, other than Game 1, doesn't mean he's redundant. Think of it as an insurance policy - you don't want to ever use it but when shyte happens you're glad you have one.

 

We don't know for sure our top order will fire for certain in the final given Pakistan's bowling n the last few matches so it makes sense to stay the course instead of weakening the batting in a final where the pressure will be more.

But that's why for Pandya's role I see Jadhav and Dhoni fulfilling it quite well. 

Karthik can also do it - but he can jump from coming at number 5 or number 7 if need be - something Pandya cannot do.  He can provide the stability if the middle or do hitting at the end .

And keeping Pandya out also brings us Shami in. 

[Unleashed]

Some of our fans are clueless as hell. Yes he had a bad bowling day today, but as a package he's an invaluable asset to India right now.

 

The final XI will be the same inspite of the need to make changes here. 

[Ultimate_Game]

2 minutes ago, bleaf27 said:

But that's why for Pandya's role I see Jadhav and Dhoni fulfilling it quite well. 

Karthik can also do it - but he can jump from coming at number 5 or number 7 if need be - something Pandya cannot do.  He can provide the stability if the middle or do hitting at the end .

And keeping Pandya out also brings us Shami in. 

Both Dhoni and jadhav have been untested and if we lose early wkts or Pakistani bowlers bowl well, we will need added depth in Pandya. We can't afford to go with just 5 specialist batsmen + Dhoni when one of those batsmen is Yuvraj who himself has struggled for a while. You can't suddenly change your team combination in the final. Change the player, say Ashwin for Shami, but not the team combination, i.e. 7 batsmen to 6 batsmen.

[bleaf27]

14 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Both Dhoni and jadhav have been untested and if we lose early wkts or Pakistani bowlers bowl well, we will need added depth in Pandya. We can't afford to go with just 5 specialist batsmen + Dhoni when one of those batsmen is Yuvraj who himself has struggled for a while. You can't suddenly change your team combination in the final. Change the player, say Ashwin for Shami, but not the team combination, i.e. 7 batsmen to 6 batsmen.

But Pandya isn't depth though , Pandya can play 2-3 overs max but thats about it.    Any longer than that and he might not be able to stay longer at all esp with bowling skill of Pak.

Karthik is a better batsman than Pandya so why not him ?

And shami is definitely a better seamer and a strike bowler ?

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, bleaf27 said:

But Pandya isn't depth though , Pandya can play 2-3 overs max but thats about it.    Any longer than that and he might not be able to stay longer at all esp with bowling skill of Pak.

Karthik is a better batsman than Pandya so why not him ?

And shami is definitely a better seamer and a strike bowler ?

He does add depth as I would expect him to score 30-40 and a quickfire 20-30 if needed. He can change a 260 total to 290 and that's more than what you expect for a no. 7 all-rounder. Plus he can take a wkt or two and contributes with his wonderful fielding. Complete package IMO and deserves to keep his spot.

[bleaf27]

6 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

He does add depth as I would expect him to score 30-40 and a quickfire 20-30 if needed. He can change a 260 total to 290 and that's more than what you expect for a no. 7 all-rounder. Plus he can take a wkt or two and contributes with his wonderful fielding. Complete package IMO and deserves to keep his spot.

I don't know about a 30-40 , I doubt his ability to do that against quality bowling.  I do not see him making more than 20 tbh.

If i see the team like this   - It looks much more balanced with  3 front line seamers and Jadeja/ Jadhav and Yuvi handling spin.   A better depth.

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Yuvi

Jadhav

Karthik

Dhoni

Jadeja

Bhuvi

Bumrah

Shami     

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Yuvi

Jadhav

Dhoni

Pandya

Jadeja

Bhuvi 

Bumrah

Shami 

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, bleaf27 said:

I don't know about a 30-40 , I doubt his ability to do that against quality bowling.  I do not see him making more than 20 tbh.

If i see the team like this   - It looks much more balanced with  3 front line seamers and Jadeja/ Jadhav and Yuvi handling spin.   A better depth.

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Yuvi

Jadhav

Karthik

Dhoni

Jadeja

Bhuvi

Bumrah

Shami     

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Yuvi

Jadhav

Dhoni

Pandya

Jadeja

Bhuvi 

Bumrah

Shami 

And what makes you believe Karthik, a guy who's 31 and averages 26, will do much more? At least pandya can contribute with the bat, with the ball and in the field whereas karthik is an inconsistent batsman, doesn't bowl and not that great a fielder as well - at least not better than Pandya. 

[G_B_]

Look, Oval is going to be a relaid fresh pitch. Pandya is going to be cannon fodder there.

 

Will persist with Ash but Pandya is just begging to be hit in the final.

[bleaf27]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

And what makes you believe Karthik, a guy who's 31 and averages 26, will do much more? At least pandya can contribute with the bat, with the ball and in the field whereas karthik is an inconsistent batsman, doesn't bowl and not that great a fielder as well - at least not better than Pandya. 

Look at the needs of a team seperately than a mix in one package as we aren't short of bench strength. bring players in for what they can excel in.

 

Look at purely from a batting perspective-

Karthik is a much better batsman than Pandya -  more experience , better consistency and can stick around in need of a collapse and we have that option.

Shami is a better bowler than Pandya in terms of Econ and Average. 

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, G_B_ said:

Look, Oval is going to be a relaid fresh pitch. Pandya is going to be cannon fodder there.

 

Will persist with Ash but Pandya is just begging to be hit in the final.

Why not replace Ash with Shami in that case? It's not as if Ashwin is gonna run circles around Pak batsmen on a belter. At least pace of Shami can make a difference.

[G_B_]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

Why not replace Ash with Shami in that case? It's not as if Ashwin is gonna run circles around Pak batsmen on a belter. At least pace of Shami can make a difference.

Because Ash is experienced enough to be persisted with. There is some track record.

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, bleaf27 said:

Look at the needs of a team seperately than a mix in one package as we aren't short of bench strength. bring players in for what they can excel in.

 

Look at purely from a batting perspective-

Karthik is a much better batsman than Pandya -  more experience , better consistency and can stick around in need of a collapse and we have that option.

Shami is a better bowler than Pandya in terms of Econ and Average. 

You gotta look at the role a batsman/player is supposed to perform as well. Pandya is needed at 7 to give a serious tonk lower down the order. Karthik can't do so from the get go so he's a wasted batsman at 7 whereas pandya can score a quickfire 20-30 which can make the difference, i.e. Pandya can score a 10 ball 20 but Karthik can't. Plus pandya can bowl a few overs and get you a wkt or two, especially against Pakistan. To boot he's a gun fielder too. I'm sorry but he's perfect for the team combo.

[Ultimate_Game]

Just now, G_B_ said:

Because Ash is experienced enough to be persisted with. There is some track record.

His track record over the last 6-8 odi games and his record against Pak is pretty poor, which Sehwag would call out as "ordinary". Plus Pak is pretty good at playing off spin and somehow have struggled against Pandya - maybe they can't handle his short of length deliveries  

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Because Ash is experienced enough to be persisted with. There is some track record.

Shami is sufficiently experienced too and a much better ODI bowler than Ashwin.

 

 

[express bowling]

Even today, despite being expensive, Pandya could have picked up 2 wickets in his 4 overs

 

One wicket was a bowled off a no-ball and that does not dilute the quality of the delivery.

 

The second was a dropped catch off a bouncer, which should have been taken

 

If he had got those 2 wickets, his performance would have been better even in terms of economy

[bleaf27]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

You gotta look at the role a batsman/player is supposed to perform as well. Pandya is needed at 7 to give a serious tonk lower down the order. Karthik can't do so from the get go so he's a wasted batsman at 7 whereas pandya can score a quickfire 20-30 which can make the difference, i.e. Pandya can score a 10 ball 20 but Karthik can't. Plus pandya can bowl a few overs and get you a wkt or two, especially against Pakistan. To boot he's a gun fielder too. I'm sorry but he's perfect for the team combo.

Well I'v seen Karthik hit and he can score a 10 ball 20 - He;s done that in IPL quite well this year.   But on the other hand , if the middle order crumbles can Pandya stick on the wicket and play 10 odd overs with a decent RR ?  quite possibly not but Karthik very well can. 

 

In terms of fielding , they both do decently.

 

In terms of bowling -  Pandya is a Wahab kinda bowler - he has been smashed by BD batsman and SL - He is the weakest bowling link for us atm

[Ultimate_Game]

2 minutes ago, bleaf27 said:

Well I'v seen Karthik hit and he can score a 10 ball 20 - He;s done that in IPL quite well this year.   But on the other hand , if the middle order crumbles can Pandya stick on the wicket and play 10 odd overs with a decent RR ?  quite possibly not but Karthik very well can. 

 

In terms of fielding , they both do decently.

 

In terms of bowling -  Pandya is a Wahab kinda bowler - he has been smashed by BD batsman and SL - He is the weakest bowling link for us atm

I would back Pandya to play 10 overs if needed the way he did in a warm up match earlier this tourney. But I wouldn't back DK to score runs, especially quick runs, when they're needed by the team.

[bleaf27]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

I would back Pandya to play 10 overs if needed the way he did in a warm up match earlier this tourney. But I wouldn't back DK to score runs, especially quick runs, when they're needed by the team.

I rate DK as a much much better bat than Pandya..  Pandya has 7 ODI innings man and even then DK comes up way higher in IPL and has a better avg and SR there and has been a beast.  

[Ultimate_Game]

1 minute ago, bleaf27 said:

I rate DK as a much much better bat than Pandya..  Pandya has 7 ODI innings man and even then DK comes up way higher in IPL and has a better avg and SR there and has been a beast.  

Thing is DK flatters to deceive. For all of DK's prowess with the bat he averages a paltry 26 with the bat. plus we don't need a batsman, we need a bowler who can bowl a few overs and Pandya fits the bill