Karnataka appoints panel to design ‘state flag’, look into legal sanctity

[coffee_rules]

4 hours ago, Texan said:

Strictly speaking flag, I don't have a problem with that. Actually all Indian states should have their own flags. Most states have their own "days" as such. Maharashtra Day, Telangana Day, etc. Flag could come in handy as a symbol of state pride.

 

Now, coming to this uber long discussion on the Hindi language and so called "imposition" of this language, here's what I don't get.

 

Maharashtra has Marathi as its native languages, Maharashtrians are proud of their language and their heritage, yet they have accepted Hindi as the national language and are happy to have it as the 3rd language that enables communication with majority of Indians. Ditto for Gujarat, West Bengal, Rajasthan, Punjab and all states except for Tamil Nadu and Karnataka. Why do these states consider Hindi as some kind of "threat" to their language? You believe your language heritage is so poor that Hindi will overshadow your native language?

 

All other states happily accept both their native language as well as the national language, then what is wrong with these two states? The thing is - this is nothing but petty politics to overshadow more real issues that the governments of these states can't solve and hence, they try to influence their voters by bringing about this divide. 

 

So, keep feeding your politicians and they will keep telling you about how Hindi "imposition" is bad for you. Fact is that many Tamils and Kannadigas also work outside their states in other Indian states and benefit from a common connect with other Indians who know Hindi.

 

In fact, it is the other way around, where most people feel our language is superior to Hindi to be allowed  to be imposed upon us. 

I have tried to explain these a few times, but it is a socio-political issue. It is because of the resentment caused by Hindi-speaking people trying to dominate socially and wanting Hindi-only and not being sensitive about local languages. We feel, being a inferior language than our local language, why should it dominate us and they want us to learn it forcibly. The script is different, we don't have the same connection like Marathi, Gujarati people have with Hindi. It is a foreign language and only a minute percentage speak.

 

Hindi/English is the central govt's official language of communication, but wherever it applies, it should apply 3-language formula in banks, post offices etc. The forms are in English and Hindi and some rural poor people in Karnataka can't even fill bank forms because they don't know either Hindi or English. That is f'in imposition! Banks/PO forms should be available in local language as well. I am sure Marathi people have ensured that somebody in Latur can fill bank/PO forms in Marathi. This is what Karnataka is fighting as well.

[zen]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@zen You keep saying Hindi is the linga franca.

 

Freudian Slip?

 

Why does India need a lingua franca? We have done well so far without one.

 

I'm no expert on history, but the two states that I remember that tried to force/forced a dominant language on others were fragmented.

Pakistan when it tried to impose Urdu on Bangladesh.

And the USSR imposed Russians in all areas of the Soviet Union.

While language may not be the only reason in the fragmentation of these nations, it did add to the local resentment.

 

PS: As an aside, how many of you who want to have Hindi as the lingua franca even read Hindi newspapers/contemporary literature/novels etc?

 Spelling error  

 

We need lingua franca to communicate effectively among us. It is not to impose a language. When it comes to choices, we have Eng and Hindi 

 

Many in South like to use English, which is no where close to any Ind language and was imposed by the British. But many folks will advocate Eng to create a lose-lose situation, where if their native language does not win (become the lingua franca), they wil create road blocks for other native languages, which is the main reason for the opposition against Hindi. I.e. if my language is not accepted relatively widely, neither will yours. Note that such attitude (create a lose-lose) has allowed foreign powers to rule Ind (employ divide and rule policies) for relatively long periods

 

Hindi is spoken/understood by over 54% of population vs 12% for Eng. Hindi is a native language, which we should support, and one of the two official union govt languages. Tons of ppl have made an effort to understand Hindi

 

Some states in South cannot be allowed to get away with trying to create a lose-lose. They have no problems with English, an imposed non-native language which uses a different script. But argue against Hindi unnecessarily. By not accepting Hindi, they are also trying to impose their regional language or a foreign language on ppl who have actually made an effort to learn and encourage a widely spoken native language

 

By using Hindi, it is not implied that regional languages should not be used. We communicate in Eng internationally, use Hindi nationally and regional languages locally

Edited July 24, 2017 by zen

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@zen You keep saying Hindi is the linga franca.

 

Freudian Slip?

 

Why does India need a lingua franca? We have done well so far without one.

 

I'm no expert on history, but the two states that I remember that tried to force/forced a dominant language on others were fragmented.

Pakistan when it tried to impose Urdu on Bangladesh.

And the USSR imposed Russians in all areas of the Soviet Union.

While language may not be the only reason in the fragmentation of these nations, it did add to the local resentment.

 

PS: As an aside, how many of you who want to have Hindi as the lingua franca even read Hindi newspapers/contemporary literature/novels etc?

Basically those interested in India facing the same have fanned it and many in the internet have fell for the trap.

[jusarrived]

18 hours ago, zen said:

Having the same (or similar?) script does not tell me much. For e.g. Boot in German means boat, while wand means wall 

 

Anyways, from wiki:

 

a) Kannada in Karnataka

 

Kannada is the official language of Karnataka and spoken as a native language by about 66.26% of the people as of 2001. Other linguistic minorities in the state were Urdu (10.54%), Telugu (7.03%), Tamil (3.57%), Marathi (3.6%), Tulu (3.0%), Hindi (2.56%), Konkani (1.46%), Malayalam (1.33%) and Kodava Takk (0.3%).^[54] 

 

 

 

b) Hindi in Ind

 

 

 

Much like Kannada is seen as linga frana in Karnataka, Hindi is seen as linga franca in Ind 

 The script is not similar , its the same . Mangalore bus stand means the same in both the languages .  

And Unlike Hindi in Bangalore, Kannada is a local lingo in these areas so its the same . 

[jusarrived]

18 hours ago, zen said:

Demand for Tulu Land in Karnataka

 

 

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/578876/demand-tulu-state-gets-louder.html 

 

 

"Demanding separate Tulu statehood, members of various organisations unfurled the Tulu Nadu flag on Karnataka Rajyotsava at several places in Uppinangady. The red colour flag with the sun and the moon on it was unfurled." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol do you see the crowd gathered ? 

And every region in every state there are some idiots demanding for a separate state , thats got nothing to do with Language . 

[jusarrived]

5 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Terrible flag. Sorry @ Tulu people, but if you want us to take your demands for statehood seriously, please come up with a better flag.

thats ugly , I see a new one every few years . No one in Mangalore takes these demands seriously anyway , as long as our bars and restaurants are running fine we dont care about anything else . 

[zen]

26 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

lol do you see the crowd gathered ? 

And every region in every state there are some idiots demanding for a separate state , thats got nothing to do with Language . 

Those folks are addressing the "crowd", which is not in the picture 

 

I would assume that language would play a part in demand for a separate state. I am all for Tulu Land

 

[coffee_rules]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Those folks are addressing the "crowd", which is not in the picture 

 

I would assume that language would play a part in demand for a separate state. I am all for Tulu Land

 

Tulu is such a sweet sounding language and people are so cute,  I am pretty sure if there was a wide-spread request for a separate state, they will be given one without any fight. There is no ill-will even among Tulu speakers towards kannada or  Karnataka. Support them all you want, we encourage you. They need a state and CM  of their own.

[Vilander]

43 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Tulu is such a sweet sounding language and people are so cute,  I am pretty sure if there was a wide-spread request for a separate state, they will be given one without any fight. There is no ill-will even among Tulu speakers towards kannada or  Karnataka. Support them all you want, we encourage you. They need a state and CM  of their own.

some people here have no Idea about Karnataka or its people, but just want Hindi to dominate the state, its not all of North Indians though only some gullible ones.

[Vilander]

Funny flag though, what is their hidden meaning would be interesting.

[Texan]

15 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

In fact, it is the other way around, where most people feel our language is superior to Hindi to be allowed  to be imposed upon us. 

I have tried to explain these a few times, but it is a socio-political issue. It is because of the resentment caused by Hindi-speaking people trying to dominate socially and wanting Hindi-only and not being sensitive about local languages. We feel, being a inferior language than our local language, why should it dominate us and they want us to learn it forcibly. The script is different, we don't have the same connection like Marathi, Gujarati people have with Hindi. It is a foreign language and only a minute percentage speak.

 

Hindi/English is the central govt's official language of communication, but wherever it applies, it should apply 3-language formula in banks, post offices etc. The forms are in English and Hindi and some rural poor people in Karnataka can't even fill bank forms because they don't know either Hindi or English. That is f'in imposition! Banks/PO forms should be available in local language as well. I am sure Marathi people have ensured that somebody in Latur can fill bank/PO forms in Marathi. This is what Karnataka is fighting as well.

On the first para -

 

Gujarati isn't exactly written in the same script as Hindi. It is a variation of the Devanagari script. Bengali is written in a different script and Punjabi is written in the Gurmukhi script. Both of these are significantly different from Devanagari. Besides, even among South Indian states, I don't hear that Kerala has as big of a problem with Hindi as Tamil Nadu and Karnataka have. So, I don't believe at all that script is the real reason for these protests.

 

Also, on language superiority or inferiority, I don't personally believe there is anything like that. Each language is unique and there is no superior or inferior here. If anything, one could argue that Hindi is actually even superior to English because each Hindi alphabet has a fixed defined pronunciation unlike English where "a" can be pronounced in 10 different ways. Big problem to teach to kids hence pre-schools tend to teach phonics before teaching alphabet names.

 

On your second para - 

I don't personally have any experience so can't comment on it. If you are saying that you have found forms printed in English & Hindi and not available in Kannada in Karnataka, then I can't really tell why banks or post-offices don't print forms in the local language. It should be a no brainer. But this is totally different from the issue people are debating here. Hindi MUST be a 3rd language in every state in India. This is what I am saying. You can have your forms in all 3 languages. You can have sign-boards in all 3 languages with Hindi clearly as the 3rd.

 

Nobody is asking that you adopt Hindi as your second language. This is not an "imposition". It is to facilitate a common connect across India so that anybody from north India coming to work in Bengaluru or Chennai can easily connect with the locals. Likewise, a Tamil or a Kannadiga traveling to Mumbai or Delhi or Jaipur or Ahmedabad can also connect with the locals there.

[Vilander]

On 7/24/2017 at 8:26 PM, Texan said:

On the first para -

 

Gujarati isn't exactly written in the same script as Hindi. It is a variation of the Devanagari script. Bengali is written in a different script and Punjabi is written in the Gurmukhi script. Both of these are significantly different from Devanagari. Besides, even among South Indian states, I don't hear that Kerala has as big of a problem with Hindi as Tamil Nadu and Karnataka have. So, I don't believe at all that script is the real reason for these protests.

 

Also, on language superiority or inferiority, I don't personally believe there is anything like that. Each language is unique and there is no superior or inferior here. If anything, one could argue that Hindi is actually even superior to English because each Hindi alphabet has a fixed defined pronunciation unlike English where "a" can be pronounced in 10 different ways. Big problem to teach to kids hence pre-schools tend to teach phonics before teaching alphabet names.

 

On your second para - 

I don't personally have any experience so can't comment on it. If you are saying that you have found forms printed in English & Hindi and not available in Kannada in Karnataka, then I can't really tell why banks or post-offices don't print forms in the local language. It should be a no brainer. But this is totally different from the issue people are debating here. Hindi MUST be a 3rd language in every state in India. This is what I am saying. You can have your forms in all 3 languages. You can have sign-boards in all 3 languages with Hindi clearly as the 3rd.

 

Nobody is asking that you adopt Hindi as your second language. This is not an "imposition". It is to facilitate a common connect across India so that anybody from north India coming to work in Bengaluru or Chennai can easily connect with the locals. Likewise, a Tamil or a Kannadiga traveling to Mumbai or Delhi or Jaipur or Ahmedabad can also connect with the locals there.

its less about linguistic chauvinism and more about protectionism, none of the smaller states will want the Hindi state to overwhelm their education/public sector to an extent that in two generations that will take them to master Hindi they will have a demographic shift in their state which can be quite irreversible.

[Vilander]

BTW there is an amendment in languages act wherein Kashmir,TN and NE states ( not too sure about KA) need central govt circulars delivered in English as a mandate and can indefinitely postpone response to a Hindi circular as they do not officially have translation departments in the secretariats, its a bit more operational than folks here imagine.

[Vilander]

On 7/24/2017 at 8:26 PM, Texan said:

Hindi MUST be a 3rd language in every state in India

In Railway stations it already is, but if you want commercial establishments, schools and colleges and metro buses to have it then the word 'must' should not be ever used with the locals as it will ensure it never happens

[jusarrived]

On 24/07/2017 at 6:40 PM, zen said:

Those folks are addressing the "crowd", which is not in the picture 

 

I would assume that language would play a part in demand for a separate state. I am all for Tulu Land

 

if you can read its clearly mentioned , the issue is that some parts of Tulu speaking areas (kasargod) went to Kerala .

Even if we "assume" theer is a demand for a sperate state of Tulu Nadu , Kannada will be as important as Tulu for us , cos in some cases half of our families have Kannada as their mother tongue .

I dont know how many times I have to explain this . 

[Lannister]

Quote

The Kannada Development Authority (KDA), whose chairman and members inspected the Bangalore Metro Rail Corporation Limited (BMRCL) on Tuesday, has taken up a host of issues including employment of non-Kannadigas in the niche engineering department of the Corporation.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/no-hindi-in-bengaluru-metro-demands-kannada-development-authority/articleshow/59808801.cms

 

This is getting interesting. I wonder who were the responsible people who included non-Kannadiga people in the engineering department of Bengaluru metro. These are state run corporations. This is a dangerous trend seeing how far the language Hindi has made into our society while our politicians were busy looting money. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Lannister

[Lannister]

Karnataka: Kannada Development Authority to protest against imposition of Hindi in schools

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/karnataka-kannada-development-authority-kda-s-g-siddaramaiah-anti-hindi-school-language/1/1014365.html

[coffee_rules]

Now this is a better fight than the signboards or flags...No kannada forms in banks...

 

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/625619/after-namma-metro-kannada-activists.html

 

Quote

In June, an employee of a nationalised bank at K M Doddi in Mandya district told a farmer to “get out of India” if he doesn’t know Hindi, which led to protests by KRV members.

“The employee finally apologised. After the incident, we wrote a letter to all banks in the state requesting them to make Kannada compulsory in cheques, challans and various bank forms. We have decided to stage protests in front of all banks to send a message to the authorities,” KRV chief Narayana Gowda said.

For Arun Javagal, the absence of Kannada was a violation of RBI Master Circular (July 1, 2015), which mandates that ‘all printed material used by retail customers including account opening forms, pay-in-slips, passbooks, etc., in trilingual form i.e., English, Hindi and the concerned Regional Language’.

“Most of the banks do not have any forms in Kannada. If we demand, they give by taking a printout. But why should we fight every day to get forms in our mother tongue? We will urge the RBI to make Kannada compulsory,” he said.

 

Now, the above incident is why we have fringe elements are fighting trivial issues like signboards on Namma Metro. These Hindi-patriots are all over south India demanding to talk in Hindi against locals who have never learnt hindi and crap's going to hit the fan all over.

[zen]

 

 

 

[Vilander]

On 7/31/2017 at 3:44 AM, coffee_rules said:

Now this is a better fight than the signboards or flags...No kannada forms in banks...

 

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/625619/after-namma-metro-kannada-activists.html

 

 

Now, the above incident is why we have fringe elements are fighting trivial issues like signboards on Namma Metro. These Hindi-patriots are all over south India demanding to talk in Hindi against locals who have never learnt hindi and crap's going to hit the fan all over.

its really the most stupid thing to do, really divisive for the union. greedy banias.