How good is Shami?

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

That is funny, coz your posts hardly reflect it.

No problem there, plz ignore them in future.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

I would be very happy if he  ends as no1 test bowler and helps India win tests/series abroad. But if we are honest all he has done so far is fill the role of support bowler very well.

 

It is a totally different ball game when you as leading fast bowler is called upon by captain again and again to stem the tide.We could literally see Zak running on fumes in last few tests. Srinath also spoke on how he was knackered by tea time but he still had bowl those overs as there was no one to do the job.

 

 

This Indian test team has played 4 tests in the last 14 months on pitches / in conditions which have aided seam bowling.

 

We have won all 4 matches.

 

The first 2 were Antigua and Gros Islet in the WI '16 series.  Shami, Bhuvi and Umesh did well in those 2 tests. The opposition was not that tough but our pacers did take leading roles there which has not always been the case in the past irrespective of how weak the opposition is.

 

The 3rd was Kolkata '16 against NZ. The pitch was green and then greenish, ball was seaming around on most days and the bounce was uneven.  Both Shami and Bhuvi picked up 6 wickets each, took the primary responsibility and we won.  This pitch was  more like a NZ track.

 

The 4th case was Dharamsala '17 against Australia. That pitch was very bouncy and had good pace. The ball seamed quite a bit. It was more like an Australian pitch but our quicks, Umesh and Bhuvi, out-bowled the Aussie pacers.  Umesh was fantastic and Bhuvi was good.

 

These 4 cases, especially the last 2, give me hope that our current bunch of quicks are ready to shoulder responsibility and win us test matches outside Asia.

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

These 4 cases, especially the last 2, gives me hope that our current bunch of quicks are ready to shoulder responsibility and win us test matches outside Asia.

Barring injury.   If Shami, Yadav, Bhuvi, Ishant, Ash, Jaddu, Pandya are all fit and firing - I think we're going to be celebrating our next visits to PardesiLand.  

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This Indian test team has played 4 tests in the last 14 months on pitches / in conditions which have aided seam bowling.

 

We have won all 4 matches.

 

The first 2 were Antigua and Gros Islet in the WI '16 series.  Shami, Bhuvi and Umesh did well in those 2 tests. The opposition was not that tough but our pacers did take leading roles there which has not always been the case in the past irrespective of how weak the opposition is.

 

The 3rd was Kolkata '16 against NZ. The pitch was green and then greenish, ball was seaming around on most days and the bounce was uneven.  Both Shami and Bhuvi picked up 6 wickets each, took the primary responsibility and we won.  This pitch was  more like a NZ track.

 

The 4th case was Dharamsala '17 against Australia. That pitch was very bouncy and had good pace. The ball seamed quite a bit. It was more like an Australian pitch but our quicks, Umesh and Bhuvi, out-bowled the Aussie pacers.  Umesh was fantastic and Bhuvi was good.

 

These 4 cases, especially the last 2, gives me hope that our current bunch of quicks are ready to shoulder responsibility and win us test matches outside Asia.

You are right under Kohli fast bowlers have started playing more prominent roles that is why I have hope too. Kohli the captain is best thing which has happened to Indian cricket. 

 

 

[express bowling]

48 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Barring injury.   If Shami, Yadav, Bhuvi, Ishant, Ash, Jaddu, Pandya are all fit and firing - I think we're going to be celebrating our next visits to PardesiLand.  

 

We have never had a bunch of pacers, like Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant, .... all 4 reasonably experienced and settled but still retain good pace or have added pace.  Bumrah and Pandya are the new guns who are also quick and adding skills fast.

 

Previously, it was either just one good seamer with pace or a good seamer who has lost pace or a bunch of quickish but wayward rookies.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[putrevus]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

We have never had a bunch of pacers, like Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant, .... all 4 reasonably experienced and settled but still retain good pace.  Bumrah and Pandya are the new guns who are also quick and adding skills fast.

 

Previously, it was either just one good seamer with pace or a good seamer who has lost pace or a bunch of quickish but wayward rookies.

 

 

I will put 2007 team which toured England on par.Skill wise they were better as all of them had wicket taking abilities.I am very disappointed with RP Singh he never regained his fitness after Sydney 2008.Even the CB series 2008 team had very good bunch heck they bowled out strong Aussie team under 160  which is no mean feat.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I will put 2007 team which toured England on par.Skill wise they were better as all of them had wicket taking abilities.I am very disappointed with RP Singh he never regained his fitness after Sydney 2008.Even the CB series 2008 team had very good bunch heck they bowled out strong Aussie team under 160  which is no mean feat.

 

They had potential but lacked the experience, which is often important for winning continuously overseas and giving the feel of a settled dominant side who can repeat their success.

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

Hey @putrevus  See what Kohli has to say about Shami. I guess he is wrong too, just like me?

 

PALLEKELE: If he was not beating the bat with his unplayable outswingers, he was terrorising them with bouncers.

In a memorable performance, Mohammad Shami, firing in 'thunderbolts' at 146 kmph, took 5/49 in the game. In fact, so good was India's new-ball pair, with the equally quick Umesh Yadav at the other end that the Lankans could have been thought they were playing on the seaming, green tracks in England, as Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal said.

"The first spell by (Mohammad) Shami and Umesh (Yadav) was brilliant. At one point, we thought as if we were playing in England," complimented Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal.

Taking 10 wickets in three Tests at 17.70, Shami, and to an extent Yadav, provided exactly the kind of new-ball performance which skipper Virat Kohli wanted from him - to soften up batsmen before the spinners came into play.

Having faced the likes of Mitchell Johnson, Mitchell Starc, Dale Steyn and Mohammad Amir, Kohli knows a thing or two about serious pace. "I certainly rate Shami in the top three, for sure, because of his wicket-taking ability, and the kind of impact he has on games.

"When he makes up his mind to come out and give it his 120 percent, then he can bowl like this -145, 140 clicks on a regular basis and troubling the batsmen. It is not just reckless bowling," praised Kohli. Not many Indian pacers, barring Javagal Srinath and Zaheer Khan, have been spoken about that highly by a top-class batsman in world cricket.

 

 

 

"He's a quality bowler. He has all the ingredients of becoming a consistent world-class bowler, provided the fitness factor can be maintained and hopefully he is not hampered with any more injuries. He is a very valuable bowler for us and when he is on song, it's delightful to watch. We all really enjoy standing on the field and watching him bowl like that, he is very special," gushed the Indian captain about his premier pace bowler.

 

 

 

While the world is awed by the skills and pace of Pakistan's Amir or South African ace Kagiso Rabada, Shami too counts himself in as someone whom a lot of batsmen in the world would rather not face.

 

 

 

Clearly, India need to preserve this 26-year-old, who could be the main weapon overseas. Considering Shami's wobbly knees -he found it difficult to even walk while recuperating from an injury last year -India are doing well to not play him in limited overs cricket.

 

 

 

It's not often that you find an Indian pacer breaking stumps, bones and hurrying the fearful batsmen into their shots. Shami's graduation into a world-class fast bowler might just bring India a bit more joy next year, when they travel outside Asia for tougher ventures.

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/india-in-sri-lanka/shami-among-top-three-pacers-in-the-world/articleshow/60068386.cms

 

@putrevus while I apologise for my words, and I sincerely do so, but sounds to me Kohli kind of agrees with me on Shami.

 

[gakgupta]

23 hours ago, Vilander said:

Bhuv Uadav did not regress either may be they stemmed it

Umesh regressed big time....he was even kicked out of the team.....but to my surprise he came back 

[pnimesh1955]

MS more and more effective if he bowls no more than 30 balls spell, otherwise ask VK

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Hey @putrevus  See what Kohli has to say about Shami. I guess he is wrong too, just like me?

 

PALLEKELE: If he was not beating the bat with his unplayable outswingers, he was terrorising them with bouncers.

In a memorable performance, Mohammad Shami, firing in 'thunderbolts' at 146 kmph, took 5/49 in the game. In fact, so good was India's new-ball pair, with the equally quick Umesh Yadav at the other end that the Lankans could have been thought they were playing on the seaming, green tracks in England, as Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal said.

"The first spell by (Mohammad) Shami and Umesh (Yadav) was brilliant. At one point, we thought as if we were playing in England," complimented Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal.

Taking 10 wickets in three Tests at 17.70, Shami, and to an extent Yadav, provided exactly the kind of new-ball performance which skipper Virat Kohli wanted from him - to soften up batsmen before the spinners came into play.

Having faced the likes of Mitchell Johnson, Mitchell Starc, Dale Steyn and Mohammad Amir, Kohli knows a thing or two about serious pace. "I certainly rate Shami in the top three, for sure, because of his wicket-taking ability, and the kind of impact he has on games.

"When he makes up his mind to come out and give it his 120 percent, then he can bowl like this -145, 140 clicks on a regular basis and troubling the batsmen. It is not just reckless bowling," praised Kohli. Not many Indian pacers, barring Javagal Srinath and Zaheer Khan, have been spoken about that highly by a top-class batsman in world cricket.

 

 

 

"He's a quality bowler. He has all the ingredients of becoming a consistent world-class bowler, provided the fitness factor can be maintained and hopefully he is not hampered with any more injuries. He is a very valuable bowler for us and when he is on song, it's delightful to watch. We all really enjoy standing on the field and watching him bowl like that, he is very special," gushed the Indian captain about his premier pace bowler.

 

 

 

While the world is awed by the skills and pace of Pakistan's Amir or South African ace Kagiso Rabada, Shami too counts himself in as someone whom a lot of batsmen in the world would rather not face.

 

 

 

Clearly, India need to preserve this 26-year-old, who could be the main weapon overseas. Considering Shami's wobbly knees -he found it difficult to even walk while recuperating from an injury last year -India are doing well to not play him in limited overs cricket.

 

 

 

It's not often that you find an Indian pacer breaking stumps, bones and hurrying the fearful batsmen into their shots. Shami's graduation into a world-class fast bowler might just bring India a bit more joy next year, when they travel outside Asia for tougher ventures.

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/india-in-sri-lanka/shami-among-top-three-pacers-in-the-world/articleshow/60068386.cms

 

@putrevus while I apologise for my words, and I sincerely do so, but sounds to me Kohli kind of agrees with me on Shami.

 

 

 

Good find  RAFbhai  !

 

At last, it looks like Indian fast bowlers are making a name for themselves in terms of both pace and ability. 

 

A group of genuine quicks is needed for that and we have it now.

 

This reputation is important to intimidate the opposition   ( after all no-one likes a 90 mph cricket ball hitting their body )   and motivate the next generation of fast bowlers.

 

 

 

Shami is easily the best test-match fast bowler in the world now while bowling in Asia. ( averages 21.9 with SR of 44 )  We played every team in the last 2 seasons and he outbowled every pacer in the world while bowling in the sub-continent.

 

p.s - I just don't agree with the part in the article about Amir.... he cannot bowl 145 k in test matches these days. ( only does it in LOIs )

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[Khota]

Shammi is very good but not a world beater.

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Khota said:

Shammi is very good but not a world beater.

 

He is, in test matches played in Asia.... and we play more than 60% of our tests in Asia.

 

There is a good chance that he will be a world beater outside Asia if he is fit in the next round of away tours.

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[Khota]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

He is, in test matches played in Asia.... and we play more than 60% of our tests in Asia.

 

There is good chance that he will be a world beater outside Asia if he is fit in the next round of away tours.

I hope you are correct.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Good find  RAFbhai  !

 

At last, it looks like Indian fast bowlers are making a name for themselves in terms of both pace and ability. 

 

A group of genuine quicks is needed for that and we have it now.

 

This reputation is important to intimidate the opposition   ( after all no-one likes a 90 mph cricket ball hitting their body )   and motivate the next generation of fast bowlers.

 

 

 

Shami is easily the best test-match fast bowler in the world now while bowling in Asia. ( averages 21.9 with SR of 44 )  We played every team in the last 2 seasons and he outbowled every pacer in the world while bowling in the sub-continent.

 

p.s - I just don't agree with the part in the article about Amir.... he cannot bowl 145 k in test matches these days. ( only does it in LOIs )

Even I don't agree about Amir. Neither he has pace, nor quality. He can only bowl decent when there's plenty help from the pitch and conditions. He is mediocre at best. None of the Pakistani pacers are above average as of now.

About a pool of fast bowlers, I think we are kind of building up on that.

[putrevus]

6 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Hey @putrevus  See what Kohli has to say about Shami. I guess he is wrong too, just like me?

 

PALLEKELE: If he was not beating the bat with his unplayable outswingers, he was terrorising them with bouncers.

In a memorable performance, Mohammad Shami, firing in 'thunderbolts' at 146 kmph, took 5/49 in the game. In fact, so good was India's new-ball pair, with the equally quick Umesh Yadav at the other end that the Lankans could have been thought they were playing on the seaming, green tracks in England, as Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal said.

"The first spell by (Mohammad) Shami and Umesh (Yadav) was brilliant. At one point, we thought as if we were playing in England," complimented Lankan skipper Dinesh Chandimal.

Taking 10 wickets in three Tests at 17.70, Shami, and to an extent Yadav, provided exactly the kind of new-ball performance which skipper Virat Kohli wanted from him - to soften up batsmen before the spinners came into play.

Having faced the likes of Mitchell Johnson, Mitchell Starc, Dale Steyn and Mohammad Amir, Kohli knows a thing or two about serious pace. "I certainly rate Shami in the top three, for sure, because of his wicket-taking ability, and the kind of impact he has on games.

"When he makes up his mind to come out and give it his 120 percent, then he can bowl like this -145, 140 clicks on a regular basis and troubling the batsmen. It is not just reckless bowling," praised Kohli. Not many Indian pacers, barring Javagal Srinath and Zaheer Khan, have been spoken about that highly by a top-class batsman in world cricket.

 

 

 

"He's a quality bowler. He has all the ingredients of becoming a consistent world-class bowler, provided the fitness factor can be maintained and hopefully he is not hampered with any more injuries. He is a very valuable bowler for us and when he is on song, it's delightful to watch. We all really enjoy standing on the field and watching him bowl like that, he is very special," gushed the Indian captain about his premier pace bowler.

 

 

 

While the world is awed by the skills and pace of Pakistan's Amir or South African ace Kagiso Rabada, Shami too counts himself in as someone whom a lot of batsmen in the world would rather not face.

 

 

 

Clearly, India need to preserve this 26-year-old, who could be the main weapon overseas. Considering Shami's wobbly knees -he found it difficult to even walk while recuperating from an injury last year -India are doing well to not play him in limited overs cricket.

 

 

 

It's not often that you find an Indian pacer breaking stumps, bones and hurrying the fearful batsmen into their shots. Shami's graduation into a world-class fast bowler might just bring India a bit more joy next year, when they travel outside Asia for tougher ventures.

 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/india-in-sri-lanka/shami-among-top-three-pacers-in-the-world/articleshow/60068386.cms

 

@putrevus while I apologise for my words, and I sincerely do so, but sounds to me Kohli kind of agrees with me on Shami.

 

Its fine water under the bridge.IMHO Kohli has to say it, he is his best fast bowler so he will pump him little bit.

 

I am not denying Shami is world class in talent but unless  he and our other fast bowlers start taking 5fers and win matches we have to temper our expectations.It is not that they do not have talent I simply feel they don't know how to do it as they have never done it. Do you think even on green tops any of our bowlers will run thru batting orders like what Broad did against Australia when he got 8/15.

 

Starc and Hazlewood would do it, Philander and Rabada would do it. Broad and Anderson would do it.Morkel I don't think is that adapt in running thru sides.When our fast bowlers start bowling out sides cheaply on helpful tracks then teams will become wary of making those tracks. How India will think twice to make tracks like Pune against sides with good spinners.Our fast bowlers need to make other teams pay if they make green tracks.Unless these guys start taking 5fers and win matches we cannot classify them as world class.

 

Ishant Sharma played nearly 80 tests and still has no clue on how to take wickets even on helpful tracks.If he takes wickets in one innings he will go missing in next five.

 

Shami has been hostile and his bowling spell in Vizag against England was one of India best ever along with Umesh Yadav's spell in Dharamsala which scared others teams with pace. Shami has 2 5fers and Yadav 1 5fer. Unless they start adding to those India is not winning anywhere outside Asia.

 

Can you say with confidence at the end of England tour Shami after playing all tests thru England series will add atleast  another four or five 5fers and one ten wicket haul. Leading bowling is not easy especially when you have never done it.Our spinners if given a chance on pitches which aid spinners will run thru any batting side anywhere in world as they are used to it. I cannot say the same will happen  when our fast bowlers are bowling on greenest green top wicket.

 

To change that India has take chances and make pitches which suit fast bowlers at home and let them learn the art of wicket taking and bowling third and fourth spell late in day.They are simply running out of gas and ideas  right now.Bowling 90 overs when spinners cannot come to their aid is a nightmare for our fast bowlers.

Edited August 15, 2017 by putrevus

[Rightarmfast]

15 hours ago, putrevus said:

Its fine water under the bridge.IMHO Kohli has to say it, he is his best fast bowler so he will pump him little bit.

 

I am not denying Shami is world class in talent but unless  he and our other fast bowlers start taking 5fers and win matches we have to temper our expectations.It is not that they do not have talent I simply feel they don't know how to do it as they have never done it. Do you think even on green tops any of our bowlers will run thru batting orders like what Broad did against Australia when he got 8/15.

 

Starc and Hazlewood would do it, Philander and Rabada would do it. Broad and Anderson would do it.Morkel I don't think is that adapt in running thru sides.When our fast bowlers start bowling out sides cheaply on helpful tracks then teams will become wary of making those tracks. How India will think twice to make tracks like Pune against sides with good spinners.Our fast bowlers need to make other teams pay if they make green tracks.Unless these guys start taking 5fers and win matches we cannot classify them as world class.

 

Ishant Sharma played nearly 80 tests and still has no clue on how to take wickets even on helpful tracks.If he takes wickets in one innings he will go missing in next five.

 

Shami has been hostile and his bowling spell in Vizag against England was one of India best ever along with Umesh Yadav's spell in Dharamsala which scared others teams with pace. Shami has 2 5fers and Yadav 1 5fer. Unless they start adding to those India is not winning anywhere outside Asia.

 

Can you say with confidence at the end of England tour Shami after playing all tests thru England series will add atleast  another four or five 5fers and one ten wicket haul. Leading bowling is not easy especially when you have never done it.Our spinners if given a chance on pitches which aid spinners will run thru any batting side anywhere in world as they are used to it. I cannot say the same will happen  when our fast bowlers are bowling on greenest green top wicket.

 

To change that India has take chances and make pitches which suit fast bowlers at home and let them learn the art of wicket taking and bowling third and fourth spell late in day.They are simply running out of gas and ideas  right now.Bowling 90 overs when spinners cannot come to their aid is a nightmare for our fast bowlers.

Really? Are you sure about it? Perhaps Starc can do it sometime, but the other bowlers? And Rabada? I am not sure about your claims. Also, I think you are confusing the ability to take 5fers as being the current best. Perhaps, you are confusing it with the likes of Mcgrath, Donald and to some extent Steyn. But bowlers like Mcgrath and Donald were All time greats.

 

Its a different thing being the worlds best in present times. The quality of bowlers have gone down. That still doesnt mean Shami isnt a great bowler.

Also I think the pitches that Shami has played on are not quite the same as the other bowlers we just mentioned. Just the other day, I was watching some old videos of Wasim Akram. I do not know about others, I think if he bowled the same kind of deliveries today, he wouldn't be half as effective as what he was then. With the advent of 20 20 and technology, the techniques have changed. The same yorkers which used to give wickets to Waqar and Wasim 27-28 yrs ago, would be smacked to boundaries today.

 

Bowlers have to work that much harder today. And pitches across the world are more flatter. Perhaps its going to be interesting to see the no of 5fers in the last 5 years by fast bowlers, in Asia and across.

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Really? Are you sure about it? Perhaps Starc can do it sometime, but the other bowlers? And Rabada? I am not sure about your claims. Also, I think you are confusing the ability to take 5fers as being the current best. Perhaps, you are confusing it with the likes of Mcgrath, Donald and to some extent Steyn. But bowlers like Mcgrath and Donald were All time greats.

 

Its a different thing being the worlds best in present times. The quality of bowlers have gone down. That still doesnt mean Shami isnt a great bowler.

Also I think the pitches that Shami has played on are not quite the same as the other bowlers we just mentioned. Just the other day, I was watching some old videos of Wasim Akram. I do not know about others, I think if he bowled the same kind of deliveries today, he wouldn't be half as effective as what he was then. With the advent of 20 20 and technology, the techniques have changed. The same yorkers which used to give wickets to Waqar and Wasim 27-28 yrs ago, would be smacked to boundaries today.

 

Bowlers have to work that much harder today. And pitches across the world are more flatter. Perhaps its going to be interesting to see the no of 5fers in the last 5 years by fast bowlers, in Asia and across.

I am not confusing anyone, Rabada has five 5fers and 2 10fers in 20 tests.Hazelwood has played on more roads than Shami in his 30 tests and has five 5fers.Hazelwood is quintessential hit the deck Aussie bowler who will never light up radar guns with his speed but is accrurate .

 

Players and us fans in India use word great very loosely when it comes to fast bowlers.Shami has never shown he can sustain that hositility/effectiveness for a complete test forget series. He has played 10 out his 25 tests in Aus/SA/NZ/England.He was dropped from side after third test in England.His average and effectiveness are best in Srilanka ,India then in West Indies.Those stats tell one thing clearly Shami has been excellent support bowler when load is being carried by spinners but loses his effectiveness when roles are reversed.Bhuvi outbowled him confortably in England.

 

Steyn is considered an ATG great becuase he flourished in this era I understand that but other great bowlers would be great in any era.Waqar might have trouble in reaching 350 wickets but when had pace he would still be very effective today .Akram would flourish in any era.Pace is pace in any era if you have pace and are accurate you will be very tough to deal with in any era. 

 

Guy like Mcgrath will become more menacing today becuase 90 percent of batsmen have no clue about their offstump.

[express bowling]

18 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

I am not denying Shami is world class in talent but unless  he and our other fast bowlers start taking 5fers and win matches we have to temper our expectations.It is not that they do not have talent I simply feel they don't know how to do it as they have never done it. Do you think even on green tops any of our bowlers will run thru batting orders like what Broad did against Australia when he got 8/15.

 

Starc and Hazlewood would do it, Philander and Rabada would do it. Broad and Anderson would do it.Morkel I don't think is that adapt in running thru sides.When our fast bowlers start bowling out sides cheaply on helpful tracks then teams will become wary of making those tracks. How India will think twice to make tracks like Pune against sides with good spinners.Our fast bowlers need to make other teams pay if they make green tracks.Unless these guys start taking 5fers and win matches we cannot classify them as world class.

 

Shami has been hostile and his bowling spell in Vizag against England was one of India best ever along with Umesh Yadav's spell in Dharamsala which scared others teams with pace. Shami has 2 5fers and Yadav 1 5fer. Unless they start adding to those India is not winning anywhere outside Asia.

 

 

Fast bowlers typically start to run through sides after they gain maturity and before they become unfit due to age.  To achieve this maturity quicker, teams known for their pace attacks typically blood youngsters while a couple of old guards are still around and not lost steam..... so that they learn from them and start to develop without having to assume the responsibility of the primary bowlers.

 

Hazlewood and Starc developed with Harris, Johnson, Siddle still around..... Rabada developed with Steyn, Morkel, Philander in charge of their pace attack.... Anderson and Broad took a much longer time to mature as they did not have any champion bowler taking charge while they matured, but even they had decent seamers in charge of bowling when they developed.

 

Moreover, all these bowlers had far more responsive conditions / pitches to hasten their development compared to our quicks.

 

Quote

Shami has never shown he can sustain that hositility/effectiveness for a complete test forget series. He has played 10 out his 25 tests in Aus/SA/NZ/England.He was dropped from side after third test in England.His average and effectiveness are best in Srilanka ,India then in West Indies.Those stats tell one thing clearly Shami has been excellent support bowler when load is being carried by spinners but loses his effectiveness when roles are reversed

Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi did not have any established and fit Indian pacer to assume responsibility when they toured  SA / NZ / Eng /  Aus.  ( Zak was in SA but had difficulty finishing his spells even ).  So, basically, it was a bunch of rookies bowling in tandem for 4 test series in a row.  They had no senior bowler to either assume primary responsibility or guide them.

 

A bunch of rookies  ( Shami, Bhuvi, Aaron, Pankaj, Umesh )  bowling together almost always leads to disaster.... and it did.  Ishant was technically experienced but he neither had the maturity to guide others, nor had the ability to assume primary responsibility throughout a series ( he did in in a couple of matches though ).

 

These factors have to be recognized before writing off Shami or other pacers on those tours.

 

In our country, when a spinner like Kuldeep debuted, he had Ashwin and Jadeja to assume primary responsibility.... and it becomes much easier to perform.

 

The current day Shami is often not brought back for a later spell as he is coming back from injury. This stops him from taking more fifers.  There is no evidence to suggest that our pacers cannot sustain intensity if they bowl more overs.

 

 

Quote

Can you say with confidence at the end of England tour Shami after playing all tests thru England series will add atleast  another four or five 5fers and one ten wicket haul. Leading bowling is not easy especially when you have never done it.Our spinners if given a chance on pitches which aid spinners will run thru any batting side anywhere in world as they are used to it. I cannot say the same will happen  when our fast bowlers are bowling on greenest green top wicket.

 

In 2016 and 2017, Shami, Bhuvi, Umesh and Ishant  have much improved stamina..... they now bowl almost the same speeds with intensity in the last sessions of the day .... this was not the case in 2014.

 

They bowl in much better areas too, over after over .... again, this was not the case in 2014.

 

They hit the deck harder with more consistency to extract life out of even flat tracks  ( Shami and Umesh were getting seam and bounce on the flat SL tracks with regularity  )

 

They are now reasonably mature bowlers.  This was not the case in 2014.

 

If we now introduce a new pacer like Bumrah, he will have a much easier time acclimatizing in tests with other test-seniors around in the pace department.

 

We see quite a few steps being taken by teams to help their seamers sustain intensity while assuming the main roles --

 

1)  Playing 5 bowlers   -- Most teams are playing all-rounders in tests these days to create 5 bowling options. Like Stokes, Moeen, Morris, Ashwin, Jadeja etc.  If we play 5 bowlers in SA etc. it will allow our main quicks to have adequate rest and bowl with more intensity when they operate.

 

2) Work-horse-type pacer -- Someone who can bowl 20+ overs a day while maintaning good line and length, even if he does not pick that many wickets.... like Siddle, Morkel, Reifel etc.  Ishant becomes important due to this reason, as he can be the work-horse.

 

3) Defensive spinners - they can bowl 20+ overs again without giving too many runs and reduce the work-load on strike pacers.

 

Another factor that works is .... on seaming / green tracks, oppositions are dismissed earlier than flat tracks and the pacers' workload is reduced.    On flat tracks, we may play 2 spinners and they will become more effective.

 

As I told you yesterday.... India has won all 4 tests played on seaming tracks / swinging conditions in the last 14 months ..... and the pacers assumed primary responsibility and delivered.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by express bowling

[putrevus]

19 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Fast bowlers typically start to run through sides after they gain maturity and before they become unfit due to age.  To achieve this maturity quicker, teams known for their pace attacks typically blood youngsters while a couple of old guards are still around and not lost steam..... so that they learn from them and start to develop without having to assume the responsibility of the primary bowlers.

 

Hazlewood and Starc developed with Harris, Johnson, Siddle still around..... Rabada developed with Steyn, Morkel, Philander in charge of their pace attack.... Anderson and Broad took a much longer time to mature as they did not have any champion bowler taking charge while they matured, but even they had decent seamers in charge of bowling when they developed.

 

Moreover, all these bowlers had far more responsive conditions / pitches to hasten their development compared to our quicks.

 

Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi did not have any established and fit Indian pacer to assume responsibility when they toured  SA / NZ / Eng /  Aus.  ( Zak was in SA but had difficulty finishing his spells even ).  So, basically, it was a bunch of rookies bowling in tandem for 4 test series in a row.  They had no senior bowler to either assume primary responsibility or guide them.

 

A bunch of rookies  ( Shami, Bhuvi, Aaron, Pankaj, Umesh )  bowling together almost always leads to disaster.... and it did.  Ishant was technically experienced but he neither had the maturity to guide others, nor had the ability to assume primary responsibility throughout a series ( he did in in a couple of matches though ).

 

These factors have to be recognized before writing off Shami or other pacers on those tours.

 

In our country, when a spinner like Kuldeep debuted, he had Ashwin and Jadeja to assume primary responsibility.... and it becomes much easier to perform.

 

The current day Shami is often not brought back for a later spell as he is coming back from injury. There is no evidence to suggest that our pacers cannot sustain intensity if they bowl more overs.

 

 

 

In 2016 and 2017, Shami, Bhuvi, Umesh and Ishant  have much improved stamina..... they now bowl almost the same speeds with intensity in the last sessions of the day .... this was not the case in 2014.

 

They bowl in much better areas too, over after over .... again, this was not the case in 2014.

 

If we now introduce a new pacer like Bumrah, he will have a much easier time acclimatizing in tests with other test-seniors around in the pace department.

 

We see quite a few steps being taken by teams to help their seamers sustain intensity while assuming the main roles --

 

1)  Playing 5 bowlers   -- Most teams are playing all-rounders in tests these days to create 5 bowling options. Like Stokes, Moeen, Morris, Ashwin, Jadeja etc.  If we play 5 bowlers in SA etc. it will allow our main quicks to have adequate rest and bowl with more intensity when they operate.

 

2) Work-horse-type pacer -- Someone who can bowl 20+ overs a day while maintaning good line and length, even if he does not pick that many wickets.... like Siddle, Morkel, Reifel etc.  Ishant becomes important due to this reason, as he can be the work-horse.

 

3) Defensive spinners - they can bowl 20+ overs again without giving too many runs and reduce the work-load on strike pacers.

 

Another factor that works is .... on seaming / green tracks, oppositions are dismissed earlier than flat tracks and the pacers' workload is reduced.    On flat tracks, we may play 2 spinners and they will become more effective.

 

As I told you yesterday.... India has won all 4 tests played on seaming tracks / swinging conditions in the last 14 months ..... and the pacers assumed primary responsibility and delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not writing off Shami at all, all I am saying is it is premature to declare him world's best.Let him win a test overseas ala Ishant atleast before we coronate him.

 

Yadav is playing since 2011 if he is not going to become world class by now I doubt he will ever become one.Shami I have hope but world class I will hold judgement till I see atleast one match winning spell from overseas.

 

The Kolkatta test you talked about in second innings Jadeja and Ashwin took 6 wickets and 8 wickets in total.WI matches you have told spinners bowled majority of overs there too. That will not happen when they tour away from subcontinent there will be only one spinner.You are under estimating the numbers of overs spinners have bowled in all those matches you have referred if those have to bowled by seamers that too economically is a big ask which none of fast bowlers have shown they are well equipped to do it.

India has ingredients to be more comepetive when they travel this time around than 2013.They have to get a good start to build their confidence.

Edited August 16, 2017 by putrevus