Crunch Test Match in South Africa. Pick your bottom 5 of the XI

[rkt.india]

34 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Shocked at hype guys giving to Kuldeep yadav . Picking him over spinners who been superb and instrumental in our domination over last year 

 

won't do it overseas is mantra . Well let's find out once and for all over next year . Same was said about Kimble and eventually he delivered overseas 

 

our boys get big runs I assure you ashwin will deliver 

we already found out about them on last overseas leg. Nothing much to know about them.

[Mosher]

45 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Shocked at hype guys giving to Kuldeep yadav . Picking him over spinners who been superb and instrumental in our domination over last year 

 

won't do it overseas is mantra . Well let's find out once and for all over next year . Same was said about Kimble and eventually he delivered overseas 

 

our boys get big runs I assure you ashwin will deliver 

Ashwin and Jadeja have performed exceptionally on subcontinental pitches but I would back a wrist spinner like Kuldeep in places like Aus and SA to pick wickets rather than finger spinners.

[Trichromatic]

Can't weaken batting option overseas. If team has to win series, then it has to first avoid defeats and that comes with strong batting.

 

Ashwin/Jadeja/Kuldeep

Pandya

Bhuvneswar

Shami

Umesh/Ishant

 

 

[The Dark Horse]

#6 Ashwin

#7 Saha

#8 Bhuvi

#9 Kuldeep

#10 Shami

#11 Umesh

#12 Jadeja

#13 Pandya

I'd first see how they play in a test (With both Ash and Jaddu). The next test I'll draft Kuldeep instead of Jaddu/Ashwin. Ashwin lends more stability to the batting as well as is different from Kuldeep in terms of variety. South Africans are pathetic in coping with good wrist spin, so I'd try to play him. Also he's had a really good success rate in the limited opportunities being provided! If the pitch is seaming just remove a spinner and draft in Pandya.

[The Dark Horse]

The likely option that will happen is playing both Jaddu and Ash(Almost a similar team that played against SL). I wouldn't blame Kohli even if he does that. He's just backing his players who have delivered the most so far.

[putrevus]

Ashwin has proved that he cannot take wickets outside SC or WI.

How many tests he has played outside SC or WI.

It is a very small sample size to judge him.He has earned that right.


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[putrevus]

you will pick two spinners in SA or England?

Yes I would at least for couple of games. Pandya has thrown a wrench into that plan I have to admit.


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[sandeep]

5 hours ago, rkt.india said:

last time, Ashwin played in SA, we barely escaped with a draw due SA's coward batting in the first test after setting a 4th innings target of 458 and Ashwin could not pick a wicket whole day and I dont see any difference in that Ashwin and today's Ashwin. He is still as ineffective he was then on pitches with less help for him. 

So one inning of one test is enough for you to write him off?   If you could determine and decide a player's worthiness and chances of success after just one opportunity - failure or success - then by that logic, Virat Kohli should not even be in the test squad to tour England.   

 

Ash blew it in SA in that test.  He had a great opportunity to win a test for India.  And he failed.  Maybe he got over-amped and tried too much and failed to settle into a good rhythm.  Maybe he learnt a few things from that day.  Maybe his bowling just can't work in those conditions.  Or Maybe he was just unlucky.   But let's not just write him off on that basis.   If he fails to convert multiple opportunities to win tests, or even demonstrates repeated lack of effectiveness, once given a full run, then maybe we could do that.  But to do that right now - to both Ash and Jaddu - is a bit unfair.  Especially given the fact that both of them have shown that they bring more than just their bowling to the table.  

 

Bottomline?  I want India to pick the 5 bowlers that are most likely to take wickets.  I don't care whether that's a newbie with little experience, or a much maligned veteran who hasn't had overseas success yet,  or  a gimmicky chinanmen, or a 3 legged alien.  Pick bowlers based on ability, opponents and conditions that maximize odds of taking wickets.   Given that all 4 of Ash, Jaddu, Bhuvi and Pandya have proven to be useful with the bat, gives us enough room to pick them based on bowling.  

 

To me, push comes to shove, the best bowling attack for India in Eng/SA/NZ/WI/Aus is Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav, Ash, Jaddu.  Even overseas.  At least to start with.   Adjust according to conditions and go from there.  If SA or any other opponent go all out on the pitch-doctoring and roll out a track where spin is going to be absolutely useless, then drop a spinner and bring in the Gujju Lukdya.  (TM)

 

 

[rkt.india]

25 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How many tests he has played outside SC or WI.

It is a very small sample size to judge him.He has earned that right.


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Last SA tour, you were the one cursing him for not picking wickets on a 5th day pitch and I was the one defending him because I know it is unrealistic for us expect him to win matches in SA even if it was a 5th day pitch. Because that was not a subcontinental 5th day pitch. If Ashwin is picked that will be just because of his batting in the lower order and not bowling. We will have to depend on 4 seamers to win us and not spinners there. Pandya will play as the 4th seamer and Ashwin as the batsman who can bowl some spin. If I would want an attacking spinner then that will be Kuldeep Yadav.

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

So one inning of one test is enough for you to write him off?   If you could determine and decide a player's worthiness and chances of success after just one opportunity - failure or success - then by that logic, Virat Kohli should not even be in the test squad to tour England.   

 

Ash blew it in SA in that test.  He had a great opportunity to win a test for India.  And he failed.  Maybe he got over-amped and tried too much and failed to settle into a good rhythm.  Maybe he learnt a few things from that day.  Maybe his bowling just can't work in those conditions.  Or Maybe he was just unlucky.   But let's not just write him off on that basis.   If he fails to convert multiple opportunities to win tests, or even demonstrates repeated lack of effectiveness, once given a full run, then maybe we could do that.  But to do that right now - to both Ash and Jaddu - is a bit unfair.  Especially given the fact that both of them have shown that they bring more than just their bowling to the table.  

 

Bottomline?  I want India to pick the 5 bowlers that are most likely to take wickets.  I don't care whether that's a newbie with little experience, or a much maligned veteran who hasn't had overseas success yet,  or  a gimmicky chinanmen, or a 3 legged alien.  Pick bowlers based on ability, opponents and conditions that maximize odds of taking wickets.   Given that all 4 of Ash, Jaddu, Bhuvi and Pandya have proven to be useful with the bat, gives us enough room to pick them based on bowling.  

 

To me, push comes to shove, the best bowling attack for India in Eng/SA/NZ/WI/Aus is Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav, Ash, Jaddu.  Even overseas.  At least to start with.   Adjust according to conditions and go from there.  If SA or any other opponent go all out on the pitch-doctoring and roll out a track where spin is going to be absolutely useless, then drop a spinner and bring in the Gujju Lukdya.  (TM)

 

 

It is not about one chance or one test. It does not matter how many test he plays there. It is unrealistic for us to expect Ashwin or Jaddu will win us matches in SA, Aus or England until we get some pitches where ball turns and we are unlikely to get those there. We will have to depend on our pacers to win. Spinners are just a defensive option there to tie an end. Nothing else. Ashwin isnt good even at that. Jaddu is with his accuracy. Also, i am not confident in Ashwin because i have not see and any change in his bowling since then. He still struggles whenever batsmen attack him or pitch is on the flatter side even in India. Like last England tour to India, he averaged 30 when he had to encounter on 1-2 flat pitches in that 4 test series. Imagine on those SA pitches where most pitches wont have Anything for him. Yes, inexperienced SA batting might help him.

[putrevus]

Last SA tour, you were the one cursing him for not picking wickets on a 5th day pitch and I was the one defending him because I know it is unrealistic for us expect him to win matches in SA even if it was a 5th day pitch. Because that was not a subcontinental 5th day pitch. If Ashwin is picked that will be just because of his batting in the lower order and not bowling. We will have to depend on 4 seamers to win us and not spinners there. Pandya will play as the 4th seamer and Ashwin as the batsman who can bowl some spin. If I would want an attacking spinner then that will be Kuldeep Yadav.

Yes I was cursing him but that was before he became what he is today. He himself has admitted that he changed during Australian tour while practicing, he has become a different bowler now. That's why I feel he has earned that right at least for first two tests.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, sarchasm said:

Was it Einstein who had something to say about repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? Hmmm, I believe he called it madness. Seems very true about many posters here as well as the team management placing their trust in Ashwin. At his very best, Ashwin would not hemorrhage runs. We have seen this happen with episodic regularity in India itself where he appears improbably innocuous. Ditto with Jadeja. Both of them are defensive options.

 

While touring out of Asia, Ashwin is needed as the No. 6 batsman who can bowl too.

 

Saha is not comfortable at No.6 according to Kohli.

 

If we want to play 5 bowlers then that seems to be the only way.

 

If the team management gives chances to Pandya at No.6 in the next test series.... and he looks the part.... we can then think about other spinners in the team in place of Ashwin.

 

The other option is Rohit at No.6 and 4 bowlers, but is there much difference between Ashwin and Rohit as test batsmen  ?   Ashwin will give some defensive overs atleast.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yes I was cursing him but that was before he became what he is today. He himself has admitted that he changed during Australian tour while practicing, he has become a different bowler now. That's why I feel he has earned that right at least for first two tests.

what he admitted does not mean much. I do not see much difference. He was good in SC then too and now. Nothing has changed. He still struggles whenever surface is a bit flat. 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

what he admitted does not mean much. I do not see much difference. He was good in SC then too and now. Nothing has changed. He still struggles whenever surface is a bit flat. 

 

True.

 

If anything, he is putting less revs on the ball after his sports hernia.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

It is not about one chance or one test. It does not matter how many test he plays there. It is unrealistic for us to expect Ashwin or Jaddu will win us matches in SA, Aus or England until we get some pitches where ball turns and we are unlikely to get those there. We will have to depend on our pacers to win. Spinners are just a defensive option there to tie an end. Nothing else. Ashwin isnt good even at that. Jaddu is with his accuracy. Also, i am not confident in Ashwin because i have not see and any change in his bowling since then. He still struggles whenever batsmen attack him or pitch is on the flatter side even in India. Like last England tour to India, he averaged 30 when he had to encounter on 1-2 flat pitches in that 4 test series. Imagine on those SA pitches where most pitches wont have Anything for him. Yes, inexperienced SA batting might help him.

 

Of course we have to depend on pacers to win where conditions are not spin friendly.  We can't expect Ash to run through sides like he does at home. But can he help the pacers sustain pressure?  Can he chip in with key wickets?  "Success" will have a different numerical definition for our spinners on the away tours.   

 

See, my primary point is that let's not be biased against any of our bowlers based on pre-conceptions.  Whether that's Ash/Jaddu due to past history, or a positive bias for Kuldeep or Pandya on their potential allure.   

 

The biggest problem for Indian team on away tours has been fielding a bowling unit that can build and sustain pressure until 10 wickets are taken.  I have followed way too many test matches where our bowlers worked hard, made inroads, only for the middle or lower order to take our opposition to safety or even match-winning totals.  This used to happen because our bowling unit couldn't sustain pressure for more than 50 or so overs at best - because at that point, we start resorting to either a 4th or 5th bowler who really wasn't effective enough to sustain the pressure and allowed the opponents off the hook.   And once that happens, even the front-line 1st, 2nd or 3rd bowlers will become ineffective once the batsmen get set, bowlers are tired and the pressure is off.  You guys know already - for consistent success in test cricket - you can't just rely on magic jaffas to pick wickets.  The top sides do it by constantly putting pressure on the batsmen and not giving them "easy" bowling to face - in terms of runs or just defense.    So let's pick the best bowlers for the job.   I'm definitely all for taking a very long look at Kuldeep here.  So its not that I'm just blindly making the case for no changes.  

 

I know Pandya's early returns with the bat has everyone drooling over the possibilities.  And I like his bowling, for what its worth.  But I don't want his batting abilities to sway the thinking into playing a "filler" type bowler - unless we absolutely need to in order to strengthen the batting lineup - or its a total seamer's paradise type of track.   Why? Because for the first time in a very long time, we actually have viable options and meaningful choices for that 4th and 5th bowler slots.    And going with Ash over Pandya isn't really much of a downgrade on the batting front either, if you are objective about it. 

 

Also, let's be honest - sure, Pandya is quick and bowls good test match lengths.  But he has relied heavily on his short ball to keep the batsmen quiet in ODIs and tests.  And its one thing to keep BD/Pak/SL batsmen quiet with the short ball - and quite another to do that to SA/Aus/Eng batsmen.  Simply because they are more practiced in facing that type of stuff in their conditions.   All of a sudden, on a flattish track, you can easily see the possibility of Pandya leaking runs and turning into that filler type bowler which will kill the pressure.  

 

I'm being super repetitive on this thread, but what I want to see is that the team makes the decision on the bottom 5 of the starting lineup purely based on their bowling abilities and effectiveness - potential to build and sustain the pressure by bowling tight, and wicket taking ability.   If Ash and Jaddu fail to be effective, and turn into weak links - then I have no issues with them being benched and benched swiftly.   

[sandeep]

18 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

While touring out of Asia, Ashwin is needed as the No. 6 batsman who can bowl too.

 

Saha is not comfortable at No.6 according to Kohli.

 

If we want to play 5 bowlers then that seems to be the only way.

 

If the team management gives chances to Pandya at No.6 in the next series.... and he looks the part.... we can then think about other spinners in team in place of Ashwin.

 

The other option is Rohit at No.6 and 4 bowlers, but is there much difference between Ashwin and Rohit as test batsmen  ?   Ashwin will give some defensive overs atleast.

 

On Saha, I think its not just what VK said - he's simply not that great a batsman for #6.  He makes an adequate #7, and at times does better than expected.  But he would be a weak link at #6 IMO.  To some extent that applies to Ash as well, but I feel his defensive game is a shade better than Saha's.

 

I just posted a long essay on this thread on the need to play our 5 best bowling options, especially now that we have 4 guys who can be expected to be at least useful with the bat - Ash, Pandya, Jaddu, Bhuvi.    LMK what you think.

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Also, let's be honest - sure, Pandya is quick and bowls good test match lengths.  But he has relied heavily on his short ball to keep the batsmen quiet in ODIs and tests.  And its one thing to keep BD/Pak/SL batsmen quiet with the short ball - and quite another to do that to SA/Aus/Eng batsmen.  Simply because they are more practiced in facing that type of stuff in their conditions.   All of a sudden, on a flattish track, you can easily see the possibility of Pandya leaking runs and turning into that filler type bowler which will kill the pressure.  

 

I'm being super repetitive on this thread, but what I want to see is that the team makes the decision on the bottom 5 of the starting lineup purely based on their bowling abilities and effectiveness - potential to build and sustain the pressure by bowling tight, and wicket taking ability.   If Ash and Jaddu fail to be effective, and turn into weak links - then I have no issues with them being benched and benched swiftly.   

Regarding that, the reason is because he has not played on pitches that would encourage him to pitch the ball up. England And SA, he will get those pitches where he will get rewarded by bowling corridor stuff even if he is bowling with a relatively older ball. 

 

Regarding bias, I have no such bias. It is all about horses for courses. If we get a pitch like we did last time at Wanderers, we will need an effective 4th seamer like Pandya and one spinner in Ashwin. We could  not win that test because of lack of 4th seamer. Zak and Shami lost steam quickly in 2nd innings. Both lacked stamina. Ishant lacked penetration. On a Durban pitch like it was last time, we might need two spinners.

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, sandeep said:

On Saha, I think its not just what VK said - he's simply not that great a batsman for #6.  He makes an adequate #7, and at times does better than expected.  But he would be a weak link at #6 IMO.  To some extent that applies to Ash as well, but I feel his defensive game is a shade better than Saha's.

 

Yes,  Ash is a slightly better batsman than Saha.  But, most importantly, we just don't have any Laxman-type No.6 batsmen available now.   So, it is better to go with the guy who wants to bat at No.6 ,  is comfortable doing so,  is as good or as bad as the other options ( ballpark ) and can be the 5th or 4th bowler.

 

Quote

I just posted a long essay on this thread on the need to play our 5 best bowling options, especially now that we have 4 guys who can be expected to be at least useful with the bat - Ash, Pandya, Jaddu, Bhuvi.    LMK what you think.

 

My take is... I will pick 3 best pacers available  ( as they are the ones who will have to pick most of the 20 wickets in SA )  and 2 best all-rounders available in SA context.  That will give the team a good balance.

 

5 best bowling options, in SA context, could mean Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant and Kuldeep / Jadeja .... and that would leave us with a weak lower-middle order batting and no No.6

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

31 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Regarding that, the reason is because he has not played on pitches that would encourage him to pitch the ball up. England And SA, he will get those pitches where he will get rewarded by bowling corridor stuff even if he is bowling with a relatively older ball. 

 

 

We saw Pandya adapting very fast even in the SL series.

 

WI ODIs. -- He was using the short balls a lot 

 

SL 1st test -- He bowled the channel with surprise bouncers

 

SL 2nd test -- He was mainly bowling 126 k cutters as the pitch was slow and a sudden 140 k ball at the stumps

 

SL 3rd test -- He was bowling mostly on the off-stump and hardly bowled a bouncer.

Edited August 15, 2017 by express bowling

[sourab10forever]

The current lot is perfect