Thommo - how quick was he?'

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Thomson was the quickest and most frightening bowler of his era.... much quicker than Lillee and much, much quicker than Pascoe.

 

I don't doubt it at all.

 

 

Indeed, that's what I said above. Thommo was once in a generation bowler (i.e. his generation). But that doesn't make him the fastest ever in the history of the Universe over 13 billion years... I think his contemporaries have hyped him too much.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

thommo was the fastest of the bunch, but he was not a once in a century talent. in 20th century cricket (excluding players who also were around in the 2000s), only bradman and sobers can be regarded as a once in a generation talents. many others come close, but these are the only ones who were considered "extreme". For instance, if you take King Viv, he never faced the best pace attack of his time (the WI) and yet Sunny and Greg Chappati did better than him.

 

Similarly, even in terms of pure pace, there is no guarantee that Thommo was once in a century player... at best, he was once in a generation (which is still outstanding). As for WI pacers, apart from Holding, the others were not genuine quicks over long spells. Garner and Croft were probably 135-140 who got steep bounce, had excellent accuracy, etc (more like Amby). Roberts and Marshall were both fast, but I think Holding was the one who could sustain a high pace.

Thompson did not have any other major skill other than his ability to bowl fast .he was once in century bowler speed wise for sure.Viv faced plenty of Wi fast bowlers in domestic cricket and county cricket and dominated them also.You are not called ATG just like that.

 

Who has bowled faster than those WI bowlers on a consistent basis for longer time, in my view no one has done it  that's why they are best ever team in  the world.

 

Pure pace is such overrated what good is pure pace if it is wayward. Mitchell Johnson is prime example.He was pacy but wayward in 2009 Ashes so was belted all over the park.2013 He had both pace and accuracy that's why it was menacing.Just because Holding was fastest other bowlers in his team were cake walk.Pace wise they had plenty of pace.

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Thomson was the quickest and most frightening bowler of his era.... much quicker than Lillee and much, much quicker than Pascoe.

 

I don't doubt it at all.

 

But, he looks slower than Lee or Shoaib to me.

 

 

You point of generation having better pace is correct  but some are freaks and Thomson was one of them. I am not saying he was faster than Lee or Akthar but he surely was not slower.

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Indeed, that's what I said above. Thommo was once in a generation bowler (i.e. his generation). But that doesn't make him the fastest ever in the history of the Universe over 13 billion years... I think his contemporaries have hyped him too much.

 

Let's say you and I have to bat against Starc and Shami on a bouncy Dharamsala pitch .... without any helmet... using '70s  bats .... with no arm-chest-thigh guards .....no limit on bouncers .... after practicing against Joginder Sharma and Rishi Dhawan

 

We would come out with lots of stories and folklore-material too.      : )

Edited October 6, 2017 by express bowling

[Vijy]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

Let's say you and I have to bat against Starc and Shami on a bouncy Dharamsala pitch .... without any helmet... using '70s  bats .... with no arm-chest-thigh guards ..... after practicing against Joginder Sharma and Rishi Dhawan

 

We would come out with lots of stories and folklore-material too.      : )

actually, facing dhawan would be fast enough for me to make up folklore material :)

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Vijy said:

actually, facing dhawan would be fast enough for me to make up folklore material :)

 

There you go    : )

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

There you go    : )

Or even Mohinder Amarnath perhaps... (I expect his pace was around 100 kmph)

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Or even Mohinder Amarnath perhaps... (I expect his pace was around 100 kmph)

 

Amarnath's pace did not threaten batters physically as long as one used pad, gloves, abdomen guard      : )

 

I have played 120 k-type pacers without a helmet and it was ok.

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

before the 70s  bouncers were frowned upon ,many of the batsmen didnt have the technique to counter bouncers ,the bouncer barrage sort of came out of nowhere due to captains like chapple and llyod like reverse swing did later.

I have read that Hall and Gilchrist used to bowl beamers, which were not banned then

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

a lot of this pace aspect of fast bowlers was hyped during the packer series for marketing purposes to make it look athletic and dangerous 

Very true

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I have read that Hall and Gilchrist used to bowl beamers, which were not banned then

yes, they did. WI also bowled some variant of Bodyline in 1930s against Eng. The Eng captain Jardine (who came up with Bodyline) scored a gritty 100 while the others didn't score much.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Vijy

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

most didnt bowl many bouncers or beamers ,gilchrist i think got banned for bowling beamers or was it griffith ,the point is the captain and team managent and boards didnt support bouncers.

yes, there was some fallout after Bodyline.

[Trichromatic]

12 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Running has nothing to do with bowling speeds. NO runner can run whole day at the same.  Same way no one can same pace whole day. 

WI pacers had one factor going their way for bowling fast - over rates. They used to bowl 70-80 in a day. Holding bowled more than 180 deliveries in not even 10 times in his 100+ test innings. When you know that you're are going to bowl 5 overs in a session and also fielding requirements aren't high, then you can push little bit more with the speed. Pacers tend to bowl faster in LOI where workload is lower. 

 

So if a bowler hits 95 mph in ODIs and 90 in tests, then a relatively less faster bowler of 1980s could have hit 90 mph in tests because of the conditions. Although same can't be said about all pacers of 80s.

[wanted_desi]

He must have been between 140-150 for most of the part. 

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

^^ That is utter nonsense, speed is speed it doesn't matter what era it is,human reflexes have not changed that much batsmen judge speed based on time they get to play fast bowling rather than speed gun readings.

 

Every batsmen who faced either Thompson or Lillee or WI fast bowlers know what it felt like when facing real intimidating fast bowling.

 

That does not mean Starc , Akthar or Lee were/are that not as  fast as them. WI fast bowlers on 1980s had accuracy and bouncy to go with their speed that's why they were deadly .

 

Borg wouldn't drop a game against todays 100 if both were playing with wooden rackets.Borg was famous for his stamina and ability to sustain high speed for five sets. 

athletes all over the world have become better, faster, stronger. Batsmen have become better at handling pace. 140 would in those days wold seem like 160 in those days due to poor gears and reflexes.

[Nonbeliever]

15 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

athletes all over the world have become better, faster, stronger. Batsmen have become better at handling pace. 140 would in those days wold seem like 160 in those days due to poor gears and reflexes.

Batsman have become better only because there is no swing.  The moment u have some swing,most of  them struggle.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Nonbeliever

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

It took 30 years for someone to break Milkha Singh record and PT usha still holds 400 m hurdles record.Point being there are some talents which are once in century talents.Thompson or WI fast bowlers were such talents.

 

Johnson was a freak who was either hot or cold.He got pummeled the next year by Indians on same pitches he terrorized Eng.

Sports in India is only cricket. Don't bring other sports in the picture. if other sports get same amount of exposure as cricket, they will evolve too but other sports have not evolved in India as they have globally. 

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

You point of generation having better pace is correct  but some are freaks and Thomson was one of them. I am not saying he was faster than Lee or Akthar but he surely was not slower.

Even Lee and Akhtar were freaks, so was Tait when it comes express pace. Express pace, over 155KPH, is a freak event in itself. You need freaks to generate such pace.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

Batsman have become better only because there is no swing.  The moment u have some swing,most of  them struggle.

Swing is a different thing. I am here talking about handling pace. Batsmen in old days trained on different yard sticks. run scoring was their second option, first was just to leave the balls and stay there in test cricket. Now, scoring is the first option, defending is 2nd. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Even Lee and Akhtar were freaks, so was Tait when it comes express pace. Express pace, over 155KPH, is a freak event in itself. You need freaks to generate such pace.

on a consistent basis, it is freakish to bowl >155 kph. there are quite a few pacers who probably touched 155 kph for 1-2 balls in their entire career. bond was one. and srinath was (allegedly) another... at 96 mph.