putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Not tough tracks, but tougher conditions. It's not silly. It's not difficult to see that every single time there is little bit of help modern batsmen struggle to post 200 on similar pitches where same score was made in 90s and 2000s. What tougher conditions did Sachin excel care to show one example.If he was that great why would he scofe single hundred in all SENA countries and none in WI. He scored 38 hundreds in Asia and rest of them are against Kenya ,Nambia an Zimboks.He has 4 100s in SENA so what great knock did he have , did I miss anything??? Edited January 15, 2019 by putrevus Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Stan AF said: Two new balls have made Spin virtually non-existent as well. There isn't enough wear and tear on the ball to grip & turn. This is a good reason as to why finger spinners have become non-existent. If you check stats in this decade for spinners they would be few and far between. Wrist spin is the only consolation we have as of now. And they are very few and far between. We had a time when part timer were very common because of this. They had spread field and old ball to work with. That luxury is completely gone now. It's easy to keep playing through line when you know that you get value for strokes. Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Just in previous match, India scratched 250 on a easy to bat surface just because swung a bit in first hour. @putrevus Do you think batsmen of 2000s would have folded below 200 at Sydney? Did India get bowled out for 54 that too in Sharjah when so called mighty Tendulkar leading India's chase of 299 that too against SL. http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8537/scorecard/65900/india-vs-sri-lanka-final-coca-cola-champions-trophy-2000-01 Don't overestimate Tendulkar, he was not greater than Kohli in anyway. Link to comment
R!TTER Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: surprised not to see Lara in that list Lara didn't open much post 1996, if ever in fact. Just to complete the list of stats, pre & post inaugural WT20 avg+S/R of major openers. View overall figures [change view] Start of match date between 1 Oct 2003 and 30 Sep 2007 Batting position between 1 and 2 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s ML Hayden (AUS) 2003-2007 70 70 5 2998 181* 46.12 3751 79.92 8 13 4 310 43 SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2003-2007 70 70 5 2893 141* 44.50 3569 81.05 6 18 3 376 24 CH Gayle (ICC/WI) 2003-2007 95 93 10 3437 153* 41.40 4145 82.91 10 15 10 419 58 GC Smith (Afr/SA) 2003-2007 83 82 6 3094 134* 40.71 3603 85.87 6 20 6 365 24 AC Gilchrist (AUS/ICC) 2003-2007 96 96 4 3564 172 38.73 3379 105.47 7 17 8 454 60 SP Fleming (NZ) 2003-2007 72 68 4 2351 115* 36.73 3054 76.98 4 14 8 277 35 ST Jayasuriya (Asia/SL) 2003-2007 89 87 5 2947 157 35.93 3069 96.02 9 10 6 351 61 V Sehwag (Asia/ICC/INDIA) 2003-2007 88 87 0 2505 130 28.79 2631 95.21 2 13 6 331 37 View overall figures [change view] Start of match date between 1 Oct 2007 and 30 Sep 2011 Batting position between 1 and 2 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s HM Amla (SA) 2008-2011 46 46 4 2437 140 58.02 2608 93.44 8 14 0 240 12 SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2007-2011 57 56 4 2686 200* 51.65 2961 90.71 7 12 1 312 27 SR Watson (AUS) 2008-2011 70 69 6 3051 185* 48.42 3251 93.84 6 18 4 329 75 TM Dilshan (SL) 2008-2011 63 63 5 2693 160 46.43 2759 97.60 9 10 3 346 21 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2008-2011 58 57 2 2529 175 45.98 2057 122.94 6 12 1 350 54 WU Tharanga (SL) 2007-2011 62 61 6 2118 133 38.50 2838 74.63 6 10 8 243 13 BB McCullum (NZ) 2007-2011 72 70 5 2307 166 35.49 2474 93.24 3 13 7 233 74 Tamim Iqbal (BDESH) 2007-2011 85 85 0 2704 154 31.81 3268 82.74 3 17 10 303 39 Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, putrevus said: What tougher conditions did Sachin excel care to show one example.If he was that great why would he scofe single hundred in all SENA countries and none in WI. He scored 38 hundreds in Asia and rest of them are against Kenya ,Nambia an Zimboks.He has 4 100s in SENAso what great knock did he have , did I miss anything??? Why do you want similar performances in tougher conditions? These are tougher conditions for a reason and reason for lower averages. Can you find a single series in Kohli's career where highest score by any team was 216 or less? You're saying that there were no tougher conditions. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/62289.html Guess what was the average score in that series? Comparable series in Kohli's career is 2012 Ind v Pak where Junaid Khan was all over him. Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Why do you want similar performances in tougher conditions? These are tougher conditions for a reason and reason for lower averages. Can you find a single series in Kohli's career where highest score by any team was 216 or less? You're saying that there were no tougher conditions. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/62289.html How were they tougher conditions, it was just inept batting in odis. Tests it is different story, 2018 was the year of bowlers and Kohli excelled in it. Gavasker scored 36 runs in 60 overs, it does not mean they were tougher conditions. Shastri won Audi car in 1985 where he scored 50 of 100 plus balls in most of his innings not because they were tougher conditions.Kapil scored 50 of 30 balls in same match too. Edited January 15, 2019 by putrevus Link to comment
Stan AF Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: We had a time when part timer were very common because of this. They had spread field and old ball to work with. That luxury is completely gone now. It's easy to keep playing through line when you know that you get value for strokes. Plus in your post you should have added the length of boundaries. Though it will be difficult to find real data to verify this claim. Many grounds have ridiculously smaller boundaries now. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, putrevus said: How were they toughers conditions, it was just inept batting in odis. Tests it is different story, 2018 was the year of bowlers and Kohli excelled in it. So, how do modern batsmen fail when there is slight support for bowlers? What happens to them suddenly? Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Just now, Stan AF said: Plus in your post you should have added the length of boundaries. Though it will be difficult to find real data to verify this claim. Many grounds have ridiculously smaller boundaries now. Length of boundary is overrated issue. There were enough short boundaries even earlier. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, putrevus said: Did India get bowled out for 54 that too in Sharjah when so called mighty Tendulkar leading India's chase of 299 that too against SL. http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8537/scorecard/65900/india-vs-sri-lanka-final-coca-cola-champions-trophy-2000-01 Don't overestimate Tendulkar, he was not greater than Kohli in anyway. In what aspects Kohli is better than Tendulkar in ODIs. Please list those. I will start with: 1. Lesser arrogance and less ariel shots - this is partly due to more desire to finish the game and knowing that scoring can be done easily without slogging in easy conditions. Rasgulla 1 Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: So, how do modern batsmen fail when there is slight support for bowlers? What happens to them suddenly? I just gave you an example 54 all out, and India with all their leading batsmen including Sachin were all out for 70 in 20 overs if I am not wrong against SA in 2008 that too in India. Don't forget 66 all out and 100 all in Durban with same Fab 4. Collapses happened in every era and will continue to happen in future too. Sachin was far batter batsman than Gavaskar.Kohli is similiarly far evolved and better batsman than Sachin.India is lucky to have back to back to back super stars in batting.I have seen Sachin all my life , I cannot agree with anyone who says he was better than Kohli. Kohli is one batsman who puts his ego away when he bats, he showed that in ample measure both in Australia and England in tests. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, putrevus said: I just gave you an example 54 all out, and India with all their leading batsmen including Sachin were all out for 70 in 20 overs if I am not wrong against SA in 2008 that too in India. Don't forget 66 all out and 100 all in Durban with same Fab 4. Collapses happened in every era and will continue to happen in future too. Sachin was far batter batsman than Gavaskar.Kohli is similiarly far evolved and better batsman than Sachin.India is lucky to have back to back to back super stars in batting.I have seen Sachin all my life , I cannot agree with anyone who says he was better than Kohli. Kohli is one batsman who puts his ego away when he bats, he showed that in ample measure both in Australia and England in tests. Yes, but if you play 5 matches on flat decks and 5 on tough tracks, will you say that one scoring higher on flat decks batted better? Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: In what aspects Kohli is better than Tendulkar in ODIs. Please list those. I will start with: 1. Lesser arrogance and less ariel shots - this is partly due to more desire to finish the game and knowing that scoring can be done easily without slogging in easy conditions. That is what seperates Kohli with rest of the batsmen.I have never seen any batsmen other than Viv Richards who has so much confidence in himself. He backs himself to chase anything because he knows he is that good and has self belief and ability to do it.Don't dilute with nonsense like easy conditions. Sachin even on his best day and on flattest wickets couldn't do things which Kohli did in his career.I repeat once again Sachin is not better than Kohli in any aspect of batting in odis.He can face any attack which Sachin faced and do better than him. Laaloo 1 Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Yes, but if you play 5 matches on flat decks and 5 on tough tracks, will you say that one scoring higher on flat decks batted better? You think those matches in 1992 were on tough tracks thats why scoring was low??? Link to comment
R!TTER Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 The mental disintegration of some fans in this thread is hilarious, SRT is still the biggest big match player for India, especially in WC View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2008 Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments or 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals or preliminary quarter-finals Match result won match Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 18 of 18 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s SR Tendulkar 2008-2011 6 6 1 502 138 100.40 571 87.91 2 3 0 47 1 RG Sharma 2008-2018 9 9 1 517 137 64.62 607 85.17 2 2 0 51 8 Yuvraj Singh 2008-2017 7 6 3 182 57* 60.66 190 95.78 0 2 1 19 3 RA Jadeja 2010-2018 7 5 3 109 33* 54.50 109 100.00 0 0 0 8 2 MS Dhoni 2008-2018 13 11 3 355 91* 44.37 424 83.72 0 2 1 29 6 V Kohli 2009-2017 10 10 3 300 96* 42.85 328 91.46 0 2 0 30 2 SK Raina 2009-2015 9 8 3 212 65 42.40 198 107.07 0 1 0 18 3 R Dravid 2009-2009 1 1 0 39 39 39.00 56 69.64 0 0 0 2 1 G Gambhir 2008-2011 6 6 0 207 97 34.50 254 81.49 0 2 0 16 0 S Dhawan 2013-2018 6 6 0 206 68 34.33 249 82.73 0 1 0 23 3 KD Karthik 2010-2018 5 4 0 132 66 33.00 193 68.39 0 1 0 13 1 RV Uthappa 2008-2008 2 2 0 47 30 23.50 82 57.31 0 0 0 3 0 KM Jadhav 2017-2018 2 1 1 23 23* - 27 85.18 0 0 0 1 1 AM Rahane 2015-2015 1 1 0 19 19 19.00 37 51.35 0 0 0 1 0 V Sehwag 2011-2011 3 3 0 53 38 17.66 49 108.16 0 0 1 11 0 IK Pathan 2008-2008 2 1 0 12 12 12.00 20 60.00 0 0 0 1 0 Harbhajan Singh 2008-2011 7 3 1 22 12 11.00 25 88.00 0 0 0 2 0 B Kumar 2013-2018 5 3 1 22 21 11.00 47 46.80 0 0 1 1 1 View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2008 Tournament type 3-4 team tournaments or 5+ team tournaments Match type tournament finals or tournament cons. finals or tournament semi-finals or tournament quarter-finals or preliminary quarter-finals Match result lost match Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 17 of 17 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s HH Pandya 2017-2017 1 1 0 76 76 76.00 43 176.74 0 1 0 4 6 AM Rahane 2015-2015 1 1 0 44 44 44.00 68 64.70 0 0 0 2 0 MS Dhoni 2008-2017 6 6 0 263 67 43.83 333 78.97 0 3 0 18 5 SK Raina 2008-2015 5 5 0 182 106 36.40 207 87.92 1 0 0 17 3 S Dhawan 2015-2017 2 2 0 66 45 33.00 63 104.76 0 0 0 10 1 V Sehwag 2008-2010 4 4 0 132 60 33.00 93 141.93 0 1 0 25 0 YK Pathan 2008-2008 1 1 0 25 25 25.00 25 100.00 0 0 0 4 0 RA Jadeja 2010-2017 3 3 0 69 38 23.00 107 64.48 0 0 0 2 0 Yuvraj Singh 2008-2017 5 5 0 104 56 20.80 126 82.53 0 1 2 13 1 RV Uthappa 2008-2008 1 1 0 20 20 20.00 41 48.78 0 0 0 2 0 Z Khan 2010-2010 1 1 0 16 16 16.00 8 200.00 0 0 0 2 1 G Gambhir 2008-2010 3 3 0 46 40 15.33 48 95.83 0 0 1 5 1 IK Pathan 2008-2008 2 2 0 30 28 15.00 41 73.17 0 0 0 1 1 RG Sharma 2008-2017 5 5 0 66 34 13.20 95 69.47 0 0 1 6 2 V Kohli 2010-2017 4 4 0 45 37 11.25 87 51.72 0 0 0 5 0 Harbhajan Singh 2010-2010 1 1 0 11 11 11.00 26 42.30 0 0 0 0 0 P Kumar 2008-2010 2 2 0 19 14 9.50 24 79.16 0 0 0 1 1 Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 We all saw how big match player Sachin was with his glorious flops in world cup finals.Scoring 100s against Namibias and Kenyas doesn't make him great big match player. Kohli has work to do in world cup but he has not even played half of the matches which Sachin played. Rasgulla, Laaloo and Real McCoy 2 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Number said: In my opinion, Kohli has passed the stage where only lack of a world cup k.o. performance can be held against him. stilll .. would be very difficult to conclude when all factors are taken into account .Then it all comes to one's own general perception after giving weightages to all these factors and taking all of them as a whole.For instance for me....Sachin played in an era when the general avg: team score was far lesser when compared to that of now a days. So naturally it comes down to how much weightage it can be given to this factor of keeping out those comparatively very high percentage of wkt: taking deliveries that comes thru out an inns on the avg: in general .Similarly the amount of pressure Sachin had to cope with and how much weightage one gives to that factor.For me I gives lots of weightage to these factors and hence if could be still Sachin for me.On the other hand for some others who does not give that much weightage to these factors, it could be Kohli .... Link to comment
putrevus Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 One more notion that Sachin somehow had more pressure is also ridiculous. Kohli plays in ERA where expections are so high for Indian team in all formats anything less than winning whole tournament or series anywhere in the world is considered a failure. When did Sachin played under this sort of pressure to win everything,India won recently in Australia for first time in 71 years and yet people were finding faults.Sachin was presiding in test losses to Zimbabawe. Rasgulla and Real McCoy 2 Link to comment
Rasgulla Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 hours ago, putrevus said: One more notion that Sachin somehow had more pressure is also ridiculous. Kohli plays in ERA where expections are so high for Indian team in all formats anything less than winning whole tournament or series anywhere in the world is considered a failure. When did Sachin played under this sort of pressure to win everything,India won recently in Australia for first time in 71 years and yet people were finding faults.Sachin was presiding in test losses to Zimbabawe. Schedule these days is hectic. IPl, T20Is, Odis and Tests. Back in those days all they had was 2 formats. Sachin can never ever match Virat's fitness in first place. What are the chances of him passing YO YO test I wonder... velu, Nikola and Real McCoy 2 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 11 hours ago, Number said: In my opinion, Kohli has passed the stage where only lack of a world cup k.o. performance can be held against him. to add to earlier said, looking forward eagerly to how Kohli fares in the next 2 world cups of his. Now that he has established as the impact batsman of this team , all eyes will be on him to perform brilliantly in at least one of them. So he would be facing the same pressure of expectations from millions across the nation that Sachin had faced thru out his career. I am eagerly looking forward to that. Link to comment
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