Who is your first choice spinner for South African tour?

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

There are cogent arguments to be made for each of the 3 choices.   Its a tough call, and a big one.   The bravest one is to punt on the wrist spinner, but knowing VK's tendency to back the "seniors", I think both Ash and Jaddu play T1.  Although only one should.  

Kohli is methodist like his batting and it is very hard for any wild card or rookie make debut under him ahead of seniors.  He gives too much importance to experience even it is not up to the mark.

[rkt.india]

My first choice spinnner would be Chahal. He has shown enough guile, spin, consistency, variations, and most of all thinking mind which is needed in conditions that are flatter. Moreover, SA only have 2 left handers in top 7 in Elgar and Dekock, so, better to have a leg spinner or a left arm spinner than a left arm Chinaman or an off spinner. IMHO, Kuldeep needs more FC games to hone his skills to get the consistency and rip he is missing at the moment. You must have at least one of them as a leg spinner, either big turn or accuracy. He is missing both. And if you have both, you are next Shane Warne.  Chahal could have been picked for SL series. but our management seems a bit laid back as they are still punting on Jadeja and Ashwin for overseas tests.  

[Cricketics]

58 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

My first choice spinnner would be Chahal. He has shown enough guile, spin, consistency, variations, and most of all thinking mind which is needed in conditions that are flatter. Moreover, SA only have 2 left handers in top 7 in Elgar and Dekock, so, better to have a leg spinner or a left arm spinner than a left arm Chinaman or an off spinner. IMHO, Kuldeep needs more FC games to hone his skills to get the consistency and rip he is missing at the moment. You must have at least one of them as a leg spinner, either big turn or accuracy. He is missing both. And if you have both, you are next Shane Warne.  Chahal could have been picked for SL series. but our management seems a bit laid back as they are still punting on Jadeja and Ashwin for overseas tests.  

Chahal is good LOI bowler but with. an FC bowling average of 33, I won’t take Chahal at this time. South Africans aren’t Australia or English t20 side that Chahal will run trouble them in South Africa. They have pretty good bats in Amla, De Villiers and co. 

 

Chahal must first play in India and be utilized by the captain to see how he can deliver in different spells.m and in limited short periods because that is how you will bowl in South Africa since bulk of thr bowling will be rotated among seamers.  Again, he is a good LOI bowler but not ahead in the last for tests, may be in the future. 

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Chahal is good LOI bowler but with. an FC bowling average of 33, I won’t take Chahal at this time. South Africans aren’t Australia or English t20 side that Chahal will run trouble them in South Africa. They have pretty good bats in Amla, De Villiers and co. 

 

Chahal must first play in India and be utilized by the captain to see how he can deliver in different spells.m and in limited short periods because that is how you will bowl in South Africa since bulk of thr bowling will be rotated among seamers.  Again, he is a good LOI bowler but not ahead in the last for tests, may be in the future. 

Chahal's FC numbers are misleading because he plays a lot at Lahli where spinners barely come in to play and only gets to play when Amit Mishra is not playing for them.  These bot are the reasons Chahal has  barely played 27 FC games in 8 years since his debut.  Even Kuldeep has an an FC average for 32 despite playing on more spin friendly tracks.  Also, we cannot judge Indian spinners to how they bowl to domestic Indian batsmen because they are good at playing spin unless the pitch is an absolute rank turner.  Only last year, Chahal got to play many games and that too on neutral venues, so, did not play much at Lahli and he averaged 22 with 33 wickets in 7 FC games while last season Kuldeep averaged 27 with 35 wickets in 8 games.  He also had a better ER than Kuldeep.  So we need to see what he did in the last season and not at his overall record.

[Cricketics]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Chahal's FC numbers are misleading because he plays a lot at Lahli where spinners barely come in to play and only gets to play when Amit Mishra is not playing for them.  These bot are the reasons Chahal has  barely played 27 FC games in 8 years since his debut.  Even Kuldeep has an an FC average for 32 despite playing on more spin friendly tracks.  Also, we cannot judge Indian spinners to how they bowl to domestic Indian batsmen because they are good at playing spin unless the pitch is an absolute rank turner.  Only last year, Chahal got to play many games and that too on neutral venues, so, did not play much at Lahli and he averaged 22 with 33 wickets in 7 FC games while last season Kuldeep averaged 27 with 35 wickets in 8 games.  He also had a better ER than Kuldeep.  So we need to see what he did in the last season and not at his overall record.

That way lot of spinmers and bowlers have misleadinng stats because many of them bowl on roads around all over India.

 

Thing is Chahal has to wait for his turn to come. He can’t just play ahead of guys like Kuldeep or Ashwin/Jadeja who have been impressiive and its not that leg spinnof Chahal is threatning or can open some loophole in Saf line up. Its better to actually play a left armer in Jadeja or even Kuldeep. Karn Sharma the leggie did not quite work in Australia in the first try when he was thrown in to the team. I would rather try someone who is already doing well for us.

 

In pace department we have a room to bring a new guy, but in spin department we should wait as all three spinners - Ashwin, Jadeja and Chahal are already doing well.

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

That way lot of spinmers and bowlers have misleadinng stats because many of them bowl on roads around all over India.

 

Thing is Chahal has to wait for his turn to come. He can’t just play ahead of guys like Kuldeep or Ashwin/Jadeja who have been impressiive and its not that leg spinnof Chahal is threatning or can open some loophole in Saf line up. Its better to actually play a left armer in Jadeja or even Kuldeep. Karn Sharma the leggie did not quite work in Australia in the first try when he was thrown in to the team. I would rather try someone who is already doing well for us.

 

In pace department we have a room to bring a new guy, but in spin department we should wait as all three spinners - Ashwin, Jadeja and Chahal are already doing well.

Ashwin and Jadeja are already TTFs overseas. How long are we going to pursue with them? you cant expect different results by doing same things again and again. Kuldeep for me is not yet ready for full fledged test cricket. He will be brutally exposed due to his lack of turn and consistency at this point.  He needs more FC cricket. While Chahal may not have played a lot of FC but he has been around for a long time now playing various levels of cricket and has shown the intelligence to get the better of the batsmen.   

[Cricketics]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Ashwin and Jadeja are already TTFs overseas. How long are we going to pursue with them? you cant expect different results by doing same things again and again. Kuldeep for me is not yet ready for full fledged test cricket. He will be brutally exposed due to his lack of turn and consistency at this point.  He needs more FC cricket. While Chahal may not have played a lot of FC but he has been around for a long time now playing various levels of cricket and has shown the intelligence to get the better of the batsmen.   

You want to drop two top spinners - Ashwin and Jadeja someone who hasn’t even played a Ranji game this year?  

 

Ashwin is a failure and he is not even my first choice. Jadeja still did decent in limited opportunities. And he has a fifer and expect him to do better than most. If you talk about failure, Pujara failed in his first tour too when he went to South Africa, doesn’t mean we drop him. He learned and did well on the next tour and now this will be his third tour. 

 

Jadeja will only get better. 

 

Yes we need to try things but that starts with fast bowlers and not spinners. As we are playing away we need to make changes or massive changes to things which are critical to our performance the most - the fast bowlers.

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

Kohli hints if they have to choose one spinner when there isnt much of turn overseas, it wud depend on how many batsman in Opp are left or righty ........as he says at some stage the ball will turn away 

 

[Cricketics]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Kuldeep is Umesh Yadav at this point, flashes of brilliant but largely inconsistent. He is not a big spinner of the ball right now, so, no use playing an erratic spinner when ball will not spin much.

There is no flash of brilliance in Umesh.  Kuldeep is Kuldeep. 

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

There is no flash of brilliance in Umesh.  Kuldeep is Kuldeep. 

what? you are the only person who says there are no flashes of brilliance in Umesh. He is the only fast bowler to pick more than 15 wickets in a test series in India in last 15 years if I am not wrong by averaging in early 20s.  Even in the last test, he showed flashes of brilliance dismissing two set batsman in the first innings by some probing bowling but just could not sustain that and that is why he is not a good bowler.  Like a batsman needs concentration, a bowler too needs to bowl with utmost focus and concentration and Umesh lacks that. He needs consistent motivation and guidance on the field and you cant spoon feed him even after so many years. 

 

Regarding Kuldeep, he is very raw.  He is like Umesh at the moment, can have a good spell but very inconsistent and can g for runs any time and he is not a big turner of the ball, also very slow through the air.  

[Cricketics]

Just now, rkt.india said:

what? you are the only person who says there are no flashes of brilliance in Umesh. He is the only fast bowler to pick more than 15 wickets in a test series in India in last 15 years if I am not wrong by averaging in early 20s.  Even in the last test, he showed flashes of brilliance dismissing two set batsman in the first innings by some probing bowling but just could not sustain that and that is why he is not a good bowler.  Like a batsman needs concentration, a bowler too needs to bowl with utmost focus and concentration and Umesh lacks that. He needs consistent motivation and guidance on the field and you cant spoon feed him even after so many years. 

 

Regarding Kuldeep, he is very raw.  He is like Umesh at the moment, can have a good spell but very inconsistent and can g for runs any time and he is not a big turner of the ball, also very slow through the air.  

No I see the goods and have mentioned that it is rare for someone to bowl that fast and that it takes years of hard work however I won’t use the brilliance for someone who has been around for 7 years. A fast bowler with that speed is bound to do great stuff at certain. Wish Umesh offered more. He is still my choice for next test and even South Africa tour as Its too risky to bring 2 new mores if Shami breaks down, but after that I will think twice before picking Umesh. 

 

That said, I can understand your reaction but it was just funny to see others wanting Umesh out the same day. No one becomes bad in 1 day when someone has been good for same fans. 

 

On Kuldeep, i will play him next test against Lanka ahead of Ashwin and Jadeja both. If he doesn’t play now he is not my choice of spinner for Saf. I will just play Jadeja in RSA. If Jadeja doesn’t do well then Kuldeep.  

 

 

[Cricketics]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

There are cogent arguments to be made for each of the 3 choices.   Its a tough call, and a big one.   The bravest one is to punt on the wrist spinner, but knowing VK's tendency to back the "seniors", I think both Ash and Jaddu play T1.  Although only one should.  

Both in first test? So you are dropping Pandya? 

 

[vishalvirsingh]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:37 PM, Cricketics said:

Jadeja is my first choice. He has had success in the past there and I feel even though Ashwin might turn the ball

more, its about who will be more effective and Jadeja I feel will suit better. 

Dear Brother..if my understanding is correct , Jadeja may not fly for tests in south africa and Ashwin and Kuldeep may fly.

Bumrah may also be picked for tests for Africa if he is dropped from some Lanka Odi's, 

Let me get into Kohli's shoes , if i was KOHLI, i would be a fool not to play BUMRAH in tests too, i could rest him out of one or two one days after the series is won but if i know that bumrah is my premier bowler , i will not let him relax in india while i am fighting tooth and nail with africa in africa.yes against Lanka , he is not required and even in indian pitches he is not required but on foreign pitches , bumrah is required and I have to be fully drunk to believe that bumrah does not fit into the test team.

 

My head says bumrah will fly for african tests too. i am not sure what selectors will say.

[sandeep]

6 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Both in first test? So you are dropping Pandya? 

 

I'm super conflicted about this - and I honestly wouldn't want to drop Pandya for T1.   But that's what I expect VK to do.   I keep going back and forth between Ash and Jaddu for the 1st spinner.   Don't forget, 6-4 is also an option here.  

[Texan]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:44 PM, rkt.india said:

Kuldeep is Umesh Yadav at this point, flashes of brilliant but largely inconsistent. He is not a big spinner of the ball right now, so, no use playing an erratic spinner when ball will not spin much.

Not even close. Kuldeep has done decently in the few chances he has been given. On the contrary Umesh has done poorly in abundant chances given to him.

[BeautifulGame]

and what are we basing our judgment on .....indian pitches
He needs help from the wkt. Surely this shud be checked in warmup games
Even if their bowling is found at par, ashwin still is ahead with his batting

Jadeja has a 6 fer in South Africa.

Not even sure Ashwin picked a single wicket SA.

If we are seriously picking a spinner based on South Africa pitches , Jadeja is miles ahead of Ashwin

[Cricketics]

2 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Jadeja has a 6 fer in South Africa.

Not even sure Ashwin picked a single wicket SA.

If we are seriously picking a spinner based on South Africa pitches , Jadeja is miles ahead of Ashwin

I thought you wanted Ashwin ahead of Jadeja overseas because he is our no.1 bowler. :)

[BeautifulGame]

I thought you wanted Ashwin ahead of Jadeja overseas because he is our no.1 bowler. :)

Not really.Dont expect either to be much effective on those wickets .

But I would pick Jadeja because SA line up has 5 RHB in their top six and I would prefer one who spin away from batsman

[rkt.india]

34 minutes ago, Texan said:

Not even close. Kuldeep has done decently in the few chances he has been given. On the contrary Umesh has done poorly in abundant chances given to him.

He has jut played 2 tests, not enough sample size.  Umesh has done poorly. just last test series at home, he was our top wicket taker among fast bowlers.  Only Indian fast bowler to have taken more than 15 wickets at home in in last dont know how many years.

[Texan]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

He has jut played 2 tests, not enough sample size.  Umesh has done poorly. just last test series at home, he was our top wicket taker among fast bowlers.  Only Indian fast bowler to have taken more than 15 wickets at home in in last dont know how many years.

One good series after how many bad series??