Agarkar: Pandya isn't ready to be third seamer yet

[putrevus]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:35 PM, Silva said:

Pandya  playing the role of 5th bowling all rounder. The same role jadeja and yuvi before him. Those 2 never bowled at the death or with the new ball so its a bit unfair to expect pandya to so even if he bowls pace rather than spin.  That responsibilty should be on the 4 specialist bowlers who are in the team purly based on their bowling. 

 

I am not sure why it is manditory for india to pick 2 spinners regardless of pitch but if thats the case then they should just replace Pandya with his brother or get another spin bowling all rounder because I dont think its possible to win a big tournament without 3 specialist seam bowlers. 

Yuvi had capability of walking in 16/2 and scoring a big hundred  or capable of hitting 12 ball fifty. I don't see that ability in Pandya.

 

Unless Pandya improves either his bowling or batting drastically he will remains a modified version of Stuart Binny with more pace but less movement with ball.

[rkt.india]

17 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yuvi had capability of walking in 16/2 and scoring a big hundred  or capable of hitting 12 ball fifty. I don't see that ability in Pandya.

 

Unless Pandya improves either his bowling or batting drastically he will remains a modified version of Stuart Binny with more pace but less movement with ball.

Yuvraj averaged 29 in ODIs for first five years of his ODI career till 2005. You are judging Yuvraj based on what he did at his best and Pandya what he is doing at the start of his career. Pandya already has an MOS performance to his name. Yuvraj did it in 2006 in his 6 year.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Yuvraj averaged 29 in ODIs for first five years of his ODI career till 2005. You are judging Yuvraj based on what he did at his best and Pandya what he is doing at the start of his career. Pandya already has an MOS performance to his name. Yuvraj did it in 2006 in his 6 year.

Average is most overrated stat, Yuvi was inconsistent that is why he had less average but he had ability from day one.

 

He walked out at no3 in his second match and scored 81 against Aussies . Do you see that ability in Pandya. Yuvi had fight off India's best middle order for most part of his career otherwise he would have played more tests.

 

I am not judging Pandya on any stats just on ability Yuvi was better batsman than Pandya from day 1.I don't see how Pandya can do justify the role of no6 in SA with his current abilities.I really hope Pandya develops into one great allrounder but his skipping tests to rest and playing odis is big red flag for me.

[mishra]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Average is most overrated stat, Yuvi was inconsistent that is why he had less average but he had ability from day one.

 

He walked out at no3 in his second match and scored 81 against Aussies . Do you see that ability in Pandya. Yuvi had fight off India's best middle order for most part of his career otherwise he would have played more tests.

 

I am not judging Pandya on any stats just on ability Yuvi was better batsman than Pandya from day 1.I don't see how Pandya can do justify the role of no6 in SA with his current abilities.I really hope Pandya develops into one great allrounder but his skipping tests to rest and playing odis is big red flag for me.

Yes, CT Finals

[rkt.india]

12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Average is most overrated stat, Yuvi was inconsistent that is why he had less average but he had ability from day one.

 

He walked out at no3 in his second match and scored 81 against Aussies . Do you see that ability in Pandya. Yuvi had fight off India's best middle order for most part of his career otherwise he would have played more tests.

 

I am not judging Pandya on any stats just on ability Yuvi was better batsman than Pandya from day 1.I don't see how Pandya can do justify the role of no6 in SA with his current abilities.I really hope Pandya develops into one great allrounder but his skipping tests to rest and playing odis is big red flag for me.

Yes, check Aus series. He had two match winning knocks there alone. Yuvi was batting in top 4, mostly 5. He bat at 5. whenever he got to bat up in the ODIs, he has shown what he is capable of.  Yes, Yuvraj had the ability but he was very  much a failure for first 5 years with average of 29 for a specialist batsman.  You dont need a Yuvraj ability batsman to win games. I dont think any batsman in India could match Yuvraj's ability, but still there were more successful batsmen than him in the team. Yuvraj was special talent who underachieved.

 

Now you are saying how Pandya will do justice to his role at 6. you are talking about tests here.

[SUMO]

pandya can't get into the team either as a batsman or bowler.
he isn't an all rounder.

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Yes, check Aus series. He had two match winning knocks there alone. Yuvi was batting in top 4, mostly 5. He bat at 5. whenever he got to bat up in the ODIs, he has shown what he is capable of.  Yes, Yuvraj had the ability but he was very  much a failure for first 5 years with average of 29 for a specialist batsman.  You dont need a Yuvraj ability batsman to win games. I dont think any batsman in India could match Yuvraj's ability, but still there were more successful batsmen than him in the team. Yuvraj was special talent who underachieved.

 

Now you are saying how Pandya will do justice to his role at 6. you are talking about tests here.

I am not worried about Odis he is fine there, I am talking about tests as that is where Pandya will have to make his mark.Can he deliver at no 6.

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

I am not worried about Odis he is fine there, I am talking about tests as that is where Pandya will have to make his mark.Can he deliver at no 6.

You brought Yuvraj into the discussion so that went into ODIs. Regarding Pandya in tests, anyway we do not have nay reliable batsman to bat at 6, so, it is better to have a multi-discipline player at that number.

[putrevus]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

You brought Yuvraj into the discussion so that went into ODIs. Regarding Pandya in tests, anyway we do not have nay reliable batsman to bat at 6, so, it is better to have a multi-discipline player at that number.

Do you foresee Pandya playing a vital role in winning two world cups in next ten years. Yuvraj is the reason why India has won its last two world cups.What Yuvi did in 2007 and 2011 is stuff of legends, even Sachin or Kohli have not done those things.

Edited December 13, 2017 by putrevus

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Do you foresee Pandya playing a vital role in winning two world cups in next ten years. Yuvraj is the reason why India has won its last two world cups.What Yuvi did in 2007 and 2011 is stuff of legends, even Sachin or Kohli have not done those things.

Where did I say that? Yuvraj was a specialist batsman. Why you comparing him to Pandya who is an alrounder. Yuvraj had a special ability but he underachieved. Yuvraj only started shining after 2006. 5-6 years after his debut. Yuvraj was a decade old into his career by 2011. You are expecting that from a rookie who barely crossed first year of international career. We will see where Pandya stands by 2020-21 

Edited December 13, 2017 by rkt.india

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Where did I say that? Yuvraj was a specialist batsman. Why you comparing him to Pandya who is an alrounder. Yuvraj had a special ability but he underachieved. 

I didn't say you said it, Yuvi was an allrounder in 2011 he bowling as as important as his batting he frankly outbowled Bhajji in 2011..Yuvi proved he was worth investing time and sticking with him during his inconsistencies.Rohit is similarly proving he was worth sticking with by becoming a dominant force.

 

I am also hoping Pandya will turn into a force but I just don't see raw talent in him as either bowler or batsman which when given time and experience will blossom into a world class talent.

Edited December 13, 2017 by putrevus

[gakgupta]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

I didn't say you said it, Yuvi was an allrounder in 2011 he bowling as as important as his batting he frankly outbowled Bhajji in 2011..Yuvi proved he was worth investing time and sticking with him during his inconsistencies.Rohit is similarly proving he was worth sticking with by becoming a dominant force.

 

I am also hoping Pandya will turn into a force but I just don't see raw talent in him as either bowler or batsman which when given time and experience will blossom into a world class talent.

Pandya can become such a match winner....

Look at his innings in the CT final against Pakistan.....he is a big match player....

Rohit can get double hundreds in not-so-important-bilateral-matches......but when it comes to big matches, we need players with attitude and sheer arrogance....he has got all of that...

For me, he has the ability to become all-time-great in ODi's.....Not in terms of numbers but playing in big games and contributing in all departments....

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, gakgupta said:

Pandya can become such a match winner....

Look at his innings in the CT final against Pakistan.....he is a big match player....

Rohit can get double hundreds in not-so-important-bilateral-matches......but when it comes to big matches, we need players with attitude and sheer arrogance....he has got all of that...

For me, he has the ability to become all-time-great in ODi's.....Not in terms of numbers but playing in big games and contributing in all departments....

I don't rate that innings that much, it was already a lost cause.Mathews knock today what does it prove nothing except fill his stats.Rohit Sharma's century got India to that final  don't talk  rubbish.

 

I sure hope you are right because to me he looks like a bits and pieces player.

[Vijy]

On 12/11/2017 at 7:33 AM, Khota said:

Need to wait another 50 years for allrounders. Maybe they dont exist.

in tests, we had only 2-3 genuine allrounders in our history - mankad & kapil (and maybe ashwin/jaddu although I'm not sold fully on either)

[Khota]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

in tests, we had only 2-3 genuine allrounders in our history - mankad & kapil (and maybe ashwin/jaddu although I'm not sold fully on either)

Kapil I have seen but I heard of Mankad. I understand he was a good spin bowler.

My gripe is that looking for allrounders is a collosal waste of time. Move on and get specialists.

Looking for all rouders is a classic definition of law of diminshing returns.

[Vijy]

14 minutes ago, Khota said:

Kapil I have seen but I heard of Mankad. I understand he was a good spin bowler.

My gripe is that looking for allrounders is a collosal waste of time. Move on and get specialists.

Looking for all rouders is a classic definition of law of diminshing returns.

not easy to find clips of mankad on YT, but there are some recordings in the archive in Pune. Thing with Mankad was that he avgd 40+ as opener (in a very weak Ind team) and was also a frontline bowler (who was heavily overbowled).

 

the problem with specialists, i.e. 5 + 1 + 5 is that the 5 batsman need to be extremely good. if one goes for 6 + 1 + 4, the same is true for the bowlers. since Ind lacks that calibre batsmen/bowlers, I think they hunt for allrounders. Another option is to a find a test keeper who can keep extremely well and also avg 40+. but that's difficult. however, many keepers these days are avg 40+ or close to it - chandimal, de Kock, Watling and Sarfaraz.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Vijy

[Khota]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

not easy to find clips of mankad on YT, but there are some recordings in the archive in Pune. Thing with Mankad was that he avgd 40+ as opener (in a very weak Ind team) and was also a frontline bowler (who was heavily overbowled).

 

the problem with specialists, i.e. 5 + 1 + 5 is that the 5 batsman need to be extremely good. if one goes for 6 + 1 + 4, the same is true for the bowlers. since Ind lacks that calibre batsmen/bowlers, I think they hunt for allrounders. Another option is to a find a test keeper who can keep extremely well and also avg 40+. but that's difficult. however, many keepers these days are avg 40+ or close to it - chandimal, de Kock, Watling and Sarfaraz.

Keeper has to bat and that is given now a days. My first choice is Karthick followed by Parthiv. both are massive upgrade over Dhoni.

 

As far as all rounders are concerned you end up getting neither a bowler nor a batsman. Cricket is a game of specialist. You just cannot compromise .

 

India needs to make a decision whether theyare going for wickets or playing safe with massive total. If wkts then 5 specialist bowlers are a must. If batting than  6 batsman are must. i would personally strike a bbalance and go with 5 bowlers + 5 batsman and wkt kpr/batsman.

On a side note was Mankad a spinner or pace bowler? Did he have another brother?

[Vijy]

9 hours ago, Khota said:

Keeper has to bat and that is given now a days. My first choice is Karthick followed by Parthiv. both are massive upgrade over Dhoni.

 

As far as all rounders are concerned you end up getting neither a bowler nor a batsman. Cricket is a game of specialist. You just cannot compromise .

 

India needs to make a decision whether theyare going for wickets or playing safe with massive total. If wkts then 5 specialist bowlers are a must. If batting than  6 batsman are must. i would personally strike a bbalance and go with 5 bowlers + 5 batsman and wkt kpr/batsman.

On a side note was Mankad a spinner or pace bowler? Did he have another brother?

neither karthik nor pappu are good enough test keepers. and in ODIs, they both avg <30. must look beyond these oldies

[Khota]

37 minutes ago, Vijy said:

neither karthik nor pappu are good enough test keepers. and in ODIs, they both avg <30. must look beyond these oldies

Disagree. They are both donig a much better job. They are not oldies and I am not infavor of youth over experience. Please dont look at the averages. Cricket averages are useless piece of information when put in context.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Khota

[Straight Drive]

Kapil Dev was awesome all rounder. Manoj Prabhakar did well as a pace bowling allrounder. He could swing. Also opened the innings with the bat. Irfan was okayish as well. Since then we have struggled to find a pace bowling all rounder.