Why don't teams reverse the batting order on greentops?

[SK_IH]

You are undermining the art of batsmanship with this theory. Playing through and surviving the difficult phases is the job of the batsmen. If they can not do it, they are not good enough.

 

[Gollum]

13 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

You are undermining the art of batsmanship with this theory. Playing through and surviving the difficult phases is the job of the batsmen. If they can not do it, they are not good enough.

I am undermining the art of batsmanship in extreme conditions. Just like how I will undermine the art of spin or pace bowling in extreme conditions.

 

Mayank/Shaw closer to Shami/Umesh while batting on green mamba 1st hour of 1st session

Michael Clarke close to Kumble on rank turner as opposed to traditional Indian pitch, remember Elgar from 2015 series? Or O'Keefe?

Grandhomme close to Steyn on lush green top as opposed to normal conditions

 

How many Indian openers do you remember who survived batting conditions like we saw in Lord's test of 2018? Ratio dekh le. I am talking about maximizing our batting strength. If NZ lays a pitch like this and we are inserted in why not try something different?

Edited February 14, 2020 by Gollum

[Khota]

If you let your tailenders walk in first you have already conceded defeat. Dumb idea.

[Gollum]

Unlike dust bowl these green top pitches are rogue for 1st hour or so and then gradually flatten out, It is possible to lose the match in that phase. Dust bowls don't change character that much over the course of the match, both teams face more or less identical conditions over the course of 2-3 days. 

[Global.Baba]

Agreed. Batsman ship is an art. Great openers are made by their ability to survive hostile bowling. Sure lottery pitches happen like a green mamba or a dustbowl so what’s the point of reversing the order. It is still a lottery. If you are dependent on tail scoring some bonus runs they might as well do it as 20/6 rather than hoping a proper bat will bail you out at the same score 

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Unlike dust bowl these green top pitches are rogue for 1st hour or so and then gradually flatten out, It is possible to lose the match in that phase. Dust bowls don't change character that much over the course of the match, both teams face more or less identical conditions over the course of 2-3 days. 

How do you guarantee tail to survive those conditions if you don’t trust your specialists too?

 

Battling out the hour is the job of a batsman. Early wickets changes the equation for any batsman

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

How do you guarantee tail to survive those conditions if you don’t trust your specialists too?

 

Battling out the hour is the job of a batsman. Early wickets changes the equation for any batsman

Tail doesn't need to survive, just play out 10-15 overs.

[Gollum]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

Agreed. Batsman ship is an art. Great openers are made by their ability to survive hostile bowling. Sure lottery pitches happen like a green mamba or a dustbowl so what’s the point of reversing the order. It is still a lottery. If you are dependent on tail scoring some bonus runs they might as well do it as 20/6 rather than hoping a proper bat will bail you out at the same score 

How many great openers can you name who conquered extreme conditions?

 

Runs aren't the essence here, time is. Play out time, hope the opponent new ball bowlers finish the entirety of their first spell before they get a chance to bowl at our proper batsmen. As such our tail isn't going to add much either at the top or at the bottom. But our batters will prefer easier conditions, especially the stroke players. Shield them as much as possible, that's why I propose slotting in Vihari before Kohli.....his task will be to hand over duty not before 30 odd overs by which time the worst phase will be over. 

[Gollum]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

How do you guarantee tail to survive those conditions if you don’t trust your specialists too?

 

Battling out the hour is the job of a batsman. Early wickets changes the equation for any batsman

You can't guarantee anything when it comes to lottery pitches, but you can take a different approach. Conventional methods rarely work in these instances. Bali ka bakra kisi aur ko bana do, not Kohli and Shaw....

[Gollum]

Poll added, let us see what ICFers think. 

[SK_IH]

@Gollum Terrible thread, ban yourself

[SK_IH]

32 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I am undermining the art of batsmanship in extreme conditions. Just like how I will undermine the art of spin or pace bowling in extreme conditions.

 

Mayank/Shaw closer to Shami/Umesh while batting on green mamba 1st hour of 1st session

Michael Clarke close to Kumble on rank turner as opposed to traditional Indian pitch, remember Elgar from 2015 series? Or O'Keefe?

Grandhomme close to Steyn on lush green top as opposed to normal conditions

 

How many Indian openers do you remember who survived batting conditions like we saw in Lord's test of 2018? Ratio dekh le. I am talking about maximizing our batting strength. If NZ lays a pitch like this and we are inserted in why not try something different?

You have doubts about openers/batsmen surviving those conditions but somehow think tailenders might scrape through somehow for even 6-7 overs. Paradoxical

[Global.Baba]

21 minutes ago, Gollum said:

You can't guarantee anything when it comes to lottery pitches, but you can take a different approach. Conventional methods rarely work in these instances. Bali ka bakra kisi aur ko bana do, not Kohli and Shaw....

Lets say specialist openers survive a tough hour, after the pitch eases out it means they can carry on.

 

If tail survives a tough hour and even slogs a few in the process  no matter how much the pitch eases out the new batsman  are starting at 2 down. Regardless of who was before you 2 down and only 8 wickets left in the bank makes a difference. It’s a pointless exercise. 

[Global.Baba]

@Gollum for a cricket discussion it’s a fun idea. No idea is good or bad, we all like these kind of fun ideas however it’s not a practical one.

 

Anyway a similar strategy on a similar premise already happens in cricket. It’s called a night watchman and people have divided opinion on that as well. Anyway this is an extreme version of it 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Global.Baba

[Gollum]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

If tail survives a tough hour and even slogs a few in the process  no matter how much the pitch eases out the new batsman  are starting at 2 down. Regardless of who was before you 2 down and only 8 wickets left in the bank makes a difference. It’s a pointless exercise. 

Need a shift in mindset, players must change their psyche for these extreme cases, how to approach and all that.

Come on you are a Baba, you should know

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

@Gollum for a cricket discussion it’s a fun idea. No idea is good or bad, we all like these kind of fun ideas however it’s not a practical one.

 

Anyway a similar strategy on a similar premise already happens in cricket. It’s called a night watchman and people have divided opinion on that as well. Anyway this is an extreme version of it 

At least NW idea has been tried, on multiple occasions. Wish to see this reversal idea be applied one day, I am just curious. 

[nevada]

On 1/21/2018 at 7:56 PM, zen said:

Reversing the batting order on green top would mean likes of Bumrah opening the batting and Vijay batting at 11, Pujara at 9 and Kohli at 8. And for eg if #10 is out, Vijay, an opener tasked with seeing the ball through, would not have faced a ball 

 

If such strategies can be successful, Gavaskar will  feel that his position as an ATG opener is threatened as tailenders can now do his job

 

Yes. Star batsmen feel threatened and even more so in today's massive sponsorship deal world.

[Vijy]

inverting doesn't really work because few tailenders have technique/temperament to last even for few overs against quality pacers on green mambas. imagine being a no. 8 or no. 9 and having to face either a cummins, bumrah, hazelnut, rabada, clouderson, boult or someone similar on a green top.

[diehardpacer]

The main problem with reverse batting order is increasing injury chances to bowlers who lack the technique to avoid getting hit on fingers, shoulders or head.

 

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

inverting doesn't really work because few tailenders have technique/temperament to last even for few overs against quality pacers on green mambas. imagine being a no. 8 or no. 9 and having to face either a cummins, bumrah, hazelnut, rabada, clouderson, boult or someone similar on a green top.

Based on recent evidence don't think they can do any worse than our normal top order on green mambas