King Kohli vs Sir Viv in ODIs

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, kruiser said:

Been watching cricket since 1985, starting with the Benson and Hedges cup in Australia. The ODIs now are un-recognizable from what was played then.. all aspects - batting, fielding and bowling, even the approach to the game is so much more professional now. 

At that time, ODIs were light entertainment - a filler between the tests. There were no ODI specialists like today. 260 was easily a match winning total...

Keeping all that in mind, Kohli is the greatest in this era. Same as Viv was in 80s or SRT was in 90s.  If the champions of past were playing today, they would have trained as hard as Kohli.. thats a demand of the times! So don't compare across different eras. 

I loved Viv's swagger, Tendu's mastery and am enthralled by Kohli's ferocity! 

Fair enough. That is a the debate i can agree. Saying xxx from the past is leagues ahead for nostalgic reasons is disingenuous. I have watched cricket in the 80s too. I know how different it was how different it is now.

[vvvslaxman]

Let me tell you this as well.  Both Tendulkar/Kohli are far more versatile batsman than Richards. Both can accumulate runs just with singles. Kohli is ultra conscious about keeping the ball down. Also he can seamlessly switch gears.  Kohli probably is fitter than Sachin. Sachin often towards the end of the innings developed cramps. He wasn't even at his 50%. Kohli is a fitness freak as you can see. He is alert, fit, agile right till the end. Kohli is better than both when it comes to chasing. Nobody comes even remotely close to him in that area.

[kira]

Viv who? 

[putrevus]

Scary what Kohli is doing, I don't care who it is there is nobody who has been better odi batsman than Kohli. This guy is just from another planet. Wow simply outstanding.

[kira]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Let me tell you this as well.  Both Tendulkar/Kohli are far more versatile batsman than Richards. Both can accumulate runs just with singles. Kohli is ultra conscious about keeping the ball down. Also he can seamlessly switch gears.  Kohli probably is fitter than Sachin. Sachin often towards the end of the innings developed cramps. He wasn't even at his 50%. Kohli is a fitness freak as you can see. He is alert, fit, agile right till the end. Kohli is better than both when it comes to chasing. Nobody comes even remotely close to him in that area.

Agree, Sachin with kohli's fitness would have been an unimaginable beast

[DHONI_FANN]

Since January 2016

Most ODI Runs : Kohli (2517)
Most ODI 100s : Kohli (11)
Best ODI batting avg : Kohli (89.89)
Most T20i runs : Kohli (940)
Most T20i 50s : Kohli (9)
Best T20i batting avg : Kohli (67.14)
Most Test runs : Root (2584) (Kohli 2560)
Most Test 100s : Kohli (10)

[Shunya]

Kohli is the best ever, time to accept it. All these nostalgia freaks can continue to gloat over Viv or Sachin and be butthurt as long as they want, Virat on the other hand is rewriting history. 

He is the Bradman of ODIs.

[Jimmy Cliff]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Effecting 3 run outs doesn't mean he did well with  bat

Nobody claimed he did well with the bat.

 

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

1983 final 33 highest score doesn't mean he did well lol.

It was a good performance in a match context. Just as Srikkanth's 38 was a very good performance in a match context.

 

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He failed to help his team chase a meager total. If you are a GOAT you should not flunk in such an easy chase.

Nope. He delivered just a good performance after already having delivered MOTM performances in WC semi-finals and finals in his career. And if you consider his 33 in the final a "failure" in a low scoring game, Kohli's 1(13) in a perfectly gettable chase in the 2015 WC SF must be the worst innings in ODI history.

 

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Just you know Viv Richards was considered a great player not for his 138 something not many even cared about. ODI became relevant only after kerry packer. All his great knocks were in bilaterals. That is why he even became famous in one dayers. His 138 was just a coincidence. 

Nobody is saying he's the GOAT only because of his WC exploits. He's GOAT because apart from utterly bullying ODI cricket in a non batting friendly era, he also happened to bring his A game in WC's and more importantly in WC KOs. If you wanna be called the GOAT, merely dominating sub-strength sides in bilaterals ain't good enough. You have to do it at the biggest stage when it matters. Viv literally ticked all the boxes. Kohli hasn't at all.

 

20 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Because it is ridiculous to use one or two innings out of 400 innings to put yourself above some other player who outclassed every batsman ever played in one day history. 

Forget one or two innings, look at their overall records in WC KO's. Viv is predictably there or thereabouts at the top whereas Kohli is competing with the likes of Vettori for the worst record.

 

[kira]

Viv just  said to michael holding that he was never as good as kohli, time for viv fangirls to accept this fact, their god has spoken 

[kira]

People who bring kohli's wc record to downplay him should realize that kohli's wc record is just an aberration which will be corrected very soon.

 

Far lesser players than kohli have had great wc performance, it is idiotic to keep on harping about the same thing. Kohli was just a rookie in 2011 wc and he was unlucky that the 2015 wc coincided with his worst year in odi cricket, kohli averaged just 36 in 2015 so it is no wonder he didn't have a great wc that year.

Edited February 16, 2018 by kira

[vvvslaxman]

I disagree with your pronouncement it was "non batting era" . Far from it. It was not an era batsmen struggled or something.. Just that batsmen didn't have the attitude to go after bowling.  We had players like Sunil Gavaskar in the 80s opening for us. You honestly think Sunil Gavaskar would be playing in our one day team now? or Yashpal sharma, Ashok Malhotra (those were 1983 world cup winners).  So many draws happened only in the 80s not now. Ricahrds was ahead of his time. But he could do that because he had two of the greatest ODI openers. Greenidge, Haynes. He had guys like Lloyd following him. THen 4 pace bowlers. 

 

Your stats is referring to 5 innings out of their entire career. So Mahela/GUptill/Waugh are better than Sachin? In what world? Just tell me why do you rate Richards better than Guptill if this is your barometer to measure greatness. Tell me clearly.

[urnotserious]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Nobody claimed he did well with the bat.

 

It was a good performance in a match context. Just as Srikkanth's 38 was a very good performance in a match context.

 

Nope. He delivered just a good performance after already having delivered MOTM performances in WC semi-finals and finals in his career. And if you consider his 33 in the final a "failure" in a low scoring game, Kohli's 1(13) in a perfectly gettable chase in the 2015 WC SF must be the worst innings in ODI history.

 

Nobody is saying he's the GOAT only because of his WC exploits. He's GOAT because apart from utterly bullying ODI cricket in a non batting friendly era, he also happened to bring his A game in WC's and more importantly in WC KOs. If you wanna be called the GOAT, merely dominating sub-strength sides in bilaterals ain't good enough. You have to do it at the biggest stage when it matters. Viv literally ticked all the boxes. Kohli hasn't at all.

 

Forget one or two innings, look at their overall records in WC KO's. Viv is predictably there or thereabouts at the top whereas Kohli is competing with the likes of Vettori for the worst record.

 

Here's your argument: Kohli is better than Viv in every conceivable way by any metric against any country but since Viv has more runs in WC, he's the best. 

 

Ridiculous much? LOL. 

 

If you were to say that Viv was a better batsman than Kohli in WC qualifying matches, we'd agree with you. But we are talking about one day internationals the entire format, Viv definitely isn't.  

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, urnotserious said:

Here's your argument: Kohli is better than Viv in every conceivable way by any metric against any country but since Viv has more runs in WC, he's the best. 

 

Ridiculous much? LOL. 

 

If you were to say that Viv was a better batsman than Kohli in WC qualifying matches, we'd agree with you. But we are talking about one day internationals the entire format, Viv definitely isn't.  

Well said lol there should be no filter at all. You just look at their career . Period. We cannot add some convenient filter and judge players. You can make so many players look better than Sachin with this.

[Jimmy Cliff]

14 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

Pyaare, i found "viv sir"'s record against the two good ODI bowlers of his era: Lillee, and Imran khan

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52812.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=start;player_involve=1369;player_involve=1383;template=results;type=batting

 

In matches against those 2 bowlers - without even considering what stage their career was in, washed up or prime - your "GOAT" averages 43 with ONE hundreds. ONE.

 

Even better : he averages 33 in matches against pakistan against imran khan, with 0 hundreds. THIRTY THREE!!!!!?!?!!?!!! And that's in 30+ games against pakistan, so a decent sample size.

 

THIS is what you're calling 'INCRADIBLE"???  Lol.

Munne, I already educated you with his overall record against the best bowlers of his time.

 

LINK

 

Averages 46+ at a SR of 90 against Lillee/Imran/Hadlee/Akram/Kapil in a non batting friendly era. Now you may prefer Kohli's knocks against Lungi Nikli or whatever, but I'd take Viv's record against these guys anyday over whatever Kohli has done against the best bowlers (who exactly?) of his time.

[kira]

As someone said before, pre 90s era of odi cricket shouldn't be taken too seriously, the odi game was at the lowest level in that era

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Jimmy Cliff said:

Munne, I already educated you with his overall record against the best bowlers of his time.

 

LINK

 

Averages 46+ at a SR of 90 against Lillee/Imran/Hadlee/Akram/Kapil in a non batting friendly era. Now you may prefer Kohli's knocks against Lungi Nikli or whatever, but I'd take Viv's record against these guys anyday over whatever Kohli has done against the best bowlers (who exactly?) of his time.

Let me break that argument. In the 80s every team had some one good bowler. or at the best 2. Rest of them were all crap. Ultra crap. Mohinder AMarnath world cup final man of the match. You really think he would be a great bowler now? Or even Steve waugh who was considered to be wizard of 50th over. You think someone like Waugh can bowl 50th over now? He would be utterly destroyed.  ROger Binny was one of the reason why India won the 1983 world cup. He took 18 wickets in that. He is almost identical to Stuart Binny. Then we had Madanlal, Sandhu , Ravi bot. Even Sandip patil had decent numbers with bowling.

[Rasgulla]

Different Era.. Haven't even played at the same time. 

 

Can't compare.  

[Jimmy Cliff]

8 minutes ago, urnotserious said:

Here's your argument: Kohli is better than Viv in every conceivable way by any metric against any country but since Viv has more runs in WC, he's the best. 

 

Ridiculous much? LOL. 

 

If you were to say that Viv was a better batsman than Kohli in WC qualifying matches, we'd agree with you. But we are talking about one day internationals the entire format, Viv definitely isn't.  

Comprehension failure on your part. Viv bettered his contemporaries far more significantly compared to Kohli in a non batting friendly era while playing against more ATG bowlers and owned the biggest stage in ODIs by being by far and away the best WC batsman of his time. Which is why he's the GOAT .

 

Kohli in this decade itself (FTB era in ODIs with diabolically weak bowling) lags behind ABDV in terms of average and SR while being a spectacular failure in WC KOs but is now supposed to be better than Viv? LMAO.

 

 

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

Anyways off for now. * you guys later.

[MechEng]

That second six off Tahir reminded me of Tendulkar's six off Warne in his Sharjah 134 where he bowled him around the wicket.