King Kohli vs Sir Viv in ODIs

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, kira said:

THIS! 80s batsmen's ( and even bowlers) stats would have been severely impacted by modern day neutral umpiring and DRS

Will you apply the same logic to tennis? Hawk eye is a recent phenomenon and tennis has adopted this technology only in the last 10 years. While clay doesn't need the technology as the ball leaves a visible mark on the surface and the players have unlimited referrals, on hard courts and grass (70% of the tour) hawkeye is necessary to correct line calls. Many marginal calls often went in the direction of a few players in back in the day, do you see these things affect the legacy of players of yesteryear? Borg would have won a USO against McEnroe with referral system in place back in the day, there were a couple of calls in favor of the home boy that robbed Borg of his elusive USO resulting in another heartbreaking loss against JMac which subsequently drove him to retirement at the age of 25. With hawkeye in place I can argue that he would have won a USO, stayed in the game and gone on to win 22 majors to finish as the undisputed GOAT.

[kira]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Will you apply the same logic to tennis? 

What rubbish, why would I apply this logic to tennis, I don't even follow tennis, didn't even bother to read the rest of the post, go join a tennis forum and discuss that, I am here to discuss cricket

[kira]

20 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Viv Richards has stated recently in an interview that he would not wear a helmet as he sees nothing in bowling  today that would make him wear one 

He would change his opinion when he gets smacked in the face from a starc's bouncer, viv can talk big since he didn't face his own bowling attack at the international level

[Straight Drive]

51 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Agree with all your points except the bolded bit. Uncovered wickets were till the 60s. Viv was a mid 70s-80s player and he played on covered wickets. I think I read somewhere about uncovered pitches in England in the late 70s also but can't seem to find that source now.

 

  @Jimmy Cliff @vvvslaxman do you have any idea about this? When exactly did uncovered wickets go off vogue? @Tattieboy

You're correct regarding uncovered wickets being phased out by 60's.

[Gollum]

This comparison is a poorer version of the Magnus Carlsen vs Fischer debate. Kasparov ofc still is my GOAT purely because of his longevity, title run for 15 years, no 1 ranking for 20 years, achievements in the strongest era of all time, against 3 other ATGs......... probably only Bradman can be compared with him 

 

Talking only about ODI cricket because neither Viv nor Kohli will figure in GOAT test batsman debate. Carlsen is like Kohli, Fischer is Viv.....only that Viv wasn't a quitter and stayed on even after getting success. Carlsen may have higher ELO rating (avg 2830+) than Fischer (avg 2750+) just like how Kohli leads Viv in the stats column. But in both endeavors there has been inflation, in chess there is inflation because of wider pyramid while in cricket balance between bat-ball has changed to flatter the stats of batsmen. Delve a bit deeper and you will see that Fischer had a 120 point lead over no 2 (Spassky) while Carlsen at his peak had a 60 point lead over no 2 (on an average hardly a 20 point lead, sometimes just a 3 point lead). With more strong players and chess engines/opening theory advancement even Fischer would have scaled 2850+ with ease if you put him against the current elite group. If you apply the stupid arguments put forth by a few posters here w.r.t chess it will appear as if a Harikrishna is equal to prime Fischer ...that is what happens if you look at stats without context. Lies, damned lies and statistics as the only Jewish PM of England once said. Magnus fans have one argument...Fischer ran away after 1972, poor Kohli chamchabots can never apply this argument here cos Viv had decent longevity. Stat geeks can try to dig up some more stats and bring names like Zaheer Abbas and Dean Jones to prove that Viv had players equal to his calibre in his era, but they can be easily shut down....stat digging can only take you so far .

 

To surmise Viv is to ODI cricket what Bradman is to test cricket, not first among equals like SRT/ Kohli/ ABDV/Ponting/Dhoni (ODI) or  Chappell/Sunny/SRT/Lara/Kallis (tests) but without any shadow of doubt the best. Barring any miracle in the coming 7-8 years modern day superstars like Kohli, ABDV will always play second fiddle to the Antiguan genius. 

 

 

 

[Gollum]

30 minutes ago, kira said:

What rubbish, why would I apply this logic to tennis, I don't even follow tennis, didn't even bother to read the rest of the post, go join a tennis forum and discuss that, I am here to discuss cricket

Your argument is so flawed, you are whining about umpiring/DRS but all sports have the same issue because of technology, you never see such discussion anywhere. FFS DRS wasn't even there for 90% of Sachin's career. Regarding neutral umpiring it all balanced out because what you copped abroad, your home umpires compensated. Doesn't apply to Pak players because their umpires were more biased than the rest. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Gollum

[Straight Drive]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

i agree. There are lot of intangible parameters. Mindset is one thing. Those days very few had the mindset to attack the bowlers. Kapil Dev was the only one i could think of besides Richards. But as far as bad decision goes , guys like Richards, Miandad benefitted more. Especially in Windies umpires would be scared of going home alive after giving lbw to Richards. As far as helmet goes it was his choice not to wear. He said having helmet did not allow him to play his shots well.  Kohli blind folded still plays superb shots. If Richards had played in modern era i very much doubt he would have walked out without a helmet. He set himself apart from the rest.

The only player from modern era to not wear helmet was Stuart Williams, and he opened.  Shoaib Akhtar bowled a bouncer at him and he still tried to hook it for a 6. 

 

Botham was attacking. His knocks were counter attacking even in tests. 

 

But the point i was trying to make is the comparison of someone batting in ODI since 2010 and someone batting in 1978 is never going to be same terms.

 

I am looking for a thread of ABD versus Virat. That will be good to debate on.

[Gollum]

Peak Sachin averaged less and had lower SR than declined Sachin of post 2000. Peak Sachin never got close to a 200 in the 90s. To the youngsters who watched Sachin only after the turn of the millennium you have no idea how much better Sachin was in the 90s. Put that version of SRT in 2000-2010 and he would average 65+ in test cricket and similar in ODI cricket. Post 2010 has become even easier for ODI batsmen...who knows may be in 2040 we will have 550 as par score in ODI cricket with 30 m boundaries and all fielders withing the 10 m inner circle for all 50 overs.....then we some new guy will average 150 striking at 200 and new threads will pop out King XYZ vs Bharat Ratna Kohli in ODIs .

[Straight Drive]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Peak Sachin averaged less and had lower SR than declined Sachin of post 2000. Peak Sachin never got close to a 200 in the 90s. To the youngsters who watched Sachin only after the turn of the millennium you have no idea how much better Sachin was in the 90s. Put that version of SRT in 2000-2010 and he would average 65+ in test cricket and similar in ODI cricket. Post 2010 has become even easier for ODI batsmen...who knows may be in 2040 we will have 550 as par score in ODI cricket with 30 m boundaries and all fielders withing the 10 m inner circle for all 50 overs.....then we some new guy will average 150 striking at 200 and new threads will pop out King XYZ vs Bharat Ratna Kohli in ODIs .

 

By 2040, cricket on Ice and T10 blast records will be compared with the records of ex players to prove they are better than Virat or Sachin. 

 

 

[Tattieboy]

51 minutes ago, kira said:

He would change his opinion when he gets smacked in the face from a starc's bouncer, viv can talk big since he didn't face his own bowling attack at the international level

Viv always talked big and backed it up 

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, Tattieboy said:

Viv Richards has stated recently in an interview that he would not wear a helmet as he sees nothing in bowling  today that would make him wear one 

That's not bravery that's arrogance. Especially it's an insult to Phillip Hughes.

[Gollum]

8 minutes ago, MechEng said:

That's not bravery that's arrogance. Especially it's an insult to Phillip Hughes.

Every contemporary great batsman of Viv has been hit on the head, Viv himself has copped many blows above his neck. Gavaskar once got hit on his forehead by a Marshall bouncer, Miandad had to be airlifted from Eden after being felled by Lillee in an exhibition event, Amarnath had his teeth smashed, jaw broken, collar bone broken, skull hit, ribs broken, shoulder blade bruised..... Hughes' death was an outlier,we may not have another such incident for 100 more years, that's how rare it was. How is Viv insulting Hughes here? He is just being honest..believe me he's that sort of guy, a real gladiator if ever there were one. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Gollum

[Tattieboy]

8 minutes ago, MechEng said:

That's not bravery that's arrogance. Especially it's an insult to Phillip Hughes.

His choice to wear or not wear and Philip Hughes  died wearing a helmet.  

[MechEng]

6 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Every contemporary great batsman of Viv has been hit on the head, Viv himself has copped many blows above his neck. Gavaskar once got hit on his forehead by a Marshall bouncer, Miandad had to be airlifted from Eden after being felled by Lillee in an exhibition event, Amarnath had his teeth smashed, jaw broken, collar bone broken, skull hit, ribs broken, shoulder blade bruised..... Hughes' death was an outlier,we may not have another such incident for 100 more years, that's how rare it was. How is Viv insulting Hughes here? He is just being honest..believe me he's that sort of guy, a real gladiator if ever there were one. 

Tell this to Hughes' family and justify what happened was no big deal. 

 

Fans want to see a competitive game of cricket, no one wants to see a cricketer being severely injured, go watch WWE or UFC if you desire violence. If anyone got injured because they chose not to wear protection gear, it's their stupidity, they get no points for bravery.

[MechEng]

8 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

His choice to wear or not wear and Philip Hughes  died wearing a helmet.  

Which is why safety is more important considering that Hughes dies even after wearing a helmet.

 

Will you tell construction workers not to wear protection helmets to show that they are brave men?

[Tattieboy]

1 minute ago, MechEng said:

Which is why safety is more important considering that Hughes dies even after wearing a helmet.

 

Will you tell construction workers not to wear protection helmets to show that they are brave men?

Never ever did Viv advocate that any others not  to wear a helmet he personally did not like wearing one. 

I'm  Viv's case it wasn't about bravery 

[Rightarmfast]

What a long debate here. In my book, theres no comparison between Viv and Kohli. A comparison can be made between Sachin and Kohli, without doubt the 2 most destructive batsmen in ODI's. 

Viv was playing in a way too nascent stage of ODI's. The bowlers didnt know reverse swing, the fielders were poor and on top of that, he had great batting and bowling resources to just play his normal game. Some of the other players like Sachin and Kohli havent had that luxury, and still performing better than him and on a more regular interval.

[kosingh]

Not sure what wearing a helmet has to do with greatness.

 

Or even if wearing a helmet shows lack of courage. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by kosingh

[putrevus]

Safety is paramount and these oldies some how use it as badge of honor. Anyone can get hit, Viv got away without wearing one because he never faced his own bowling attack. Roberts hurt so many batsmen with his fast bouncer.

 

If helmet is there everyone should wear it, we don't want another Phil Hughes or Raman Lamba incidents  .

[Tattieboy]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Safety is paramount and these oldies some how use it as badge of honor. Anyone can get hit, Viv got away without wearing one because he never faced his own bowling attack. Roberts hurt so many batsmen with his fast bouncer.

 

If helmet is there everyone should wear it, we don't want another Phil Hughes or Raman Lamba incidents  .

Of course he faced his own bowling . Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Daniels, Clarke etc . He played over 500 first class games in West Indies and England. 

90mph+ in first class games is exactly the same 90mph as test matches