The Myth of Thousand Years Rule

[Gollum]

10 hours ago, randomGuy said:

@Gollum India produces better wrestlers, boxers, weight lifters, kabaddi players etc. And beats them comfortably here. 

If there was rugby match, we would probably win there easily. I think you can see how cricket/hockey is different from these sports.
 

 

2 hours ago, Singh bling said:

The sports you mentioned don't have any rivalry,people simply don't   care about them

We are better than them in most sports as can be gauged in the medals table in Olympics, CWG, Asian Games etc right from 1947. However as correctly pointed out we don't have rivalries in most sports. Besides cricket and hockey we have always had gun tennis, badminton, boxing, wrestling, billiards/snooker, chess, shooting stars while they have had great squash, snooker, boxing and wrestling stars. But they have never translated into any rivalry because these sports had popularity in 1 country but not another. Also these sports don't have mass popularity in this part of the world, albeit things are changing for the better in India especially badminton. In sports like football, rugby, basketball, volleyball we both suck..nowhere near the top level, impossible to create a big rivalry when a 130th ranked team meets a 150th ranked one.

 

In cricket and hockey however both India and Pakistan have reached the top level. Both have won WCs and other big trophies (Olympic gold, CT, WT20....), both have topped the ranking and both have produced all time legends. Needless to say cricket is by and far the no 1 sport in our countries and field hockey is the national sport in both countries. There were times when field hockey was no 1 in both countries. No other sport in India or Pakistan has reached the level of these 2, although we have produced world champs in other sports. Pakistan lead the H2H in both these sports, that too is a cold hard fact. Cricket rivalry has been discussed long and hard on ICF (tampering, fixing, umpiring, WC record all covered) but one peculiar often overlooked stat I would like to point out is that we are almost equal in the H2H since 2003 WC. This phase (2003-2018) is our greatest era and Pakistan's worst. Yet they have fought beyond their capabilities on the cricket field against a consistently higher ranked team. Same trend can be observed in hockey. In their worst era (post 2000) they have a winning H2H against us when we have been better than them. However there is no streak here, they have dominated or competed well in all the big trophies in this period, they have a winning record against us in neutral venues....really nothing to escape this fact. They have done this as an inferior team, they raise their game against us and become extremely clutch and ruthless when they see India on the other side. Cricket and hockey are like jihad on the turf for them, you can see that in their bodylanguage and intensity. The only reason why we struggle against them is mentality, we refuse to treat the match any differently while for them an India match is do or die. There was a 5 nation series in Europe some 10 years back: Netherlands, Gernany, Australia, India and Pakistan. I watched that entire tournament and India played very well against the top 3 sides in the tournament. There was some problem in Pak hockey and hence their top players sat out of that tourney, leaving their rejects and juniors to play that tournament. We won a match against Germany, drew many hard fought matches an lost a couple that too narrowly to Netherlands and Australia because of last minute choking. Those 3 teams blasted Pakistan with scorelines like 8-0, 7-0, 6-1..... but when Pak came up against us their team of rookies smashed us convincingly both times with our stalwarts playing like kittens. That is when I understood Pak mentality in Indo-Pak games, unlike us they can never treat this as just another game, they will come hard at us every single time. Do you think it is a coincidence that Shoaib Malik/Salman Butt>>Sachin in Indo-Pak matches or Fakhar Zamaan/Nasir Jamshed>>Kohli? The forces aren't even comparable but something happens to them. Extending this to hockey, they had a striker called Rehan Butt who was *, he would do nothing whole year but against India he would run circles around us, there was never an Indo-Pak match in the 2000s without Rehan Butt on the goals scored column, even if he played for 2 minutes he would score a goal and go.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Anyway feel we are digressing from the underlying issue about our medieval history. Hindus could never unite and channelize their collective energy but Muslims were able to do just that because of their religion. Their calls for jihad on the battlefield and ruthless treatment of Hindu prisoners, civilians, places of worship, women.....all in accordance with their religious guidelines had a big role in our subservience for 700 odd years. Whenever we could unite under religion for brief times eg Sikhs or Marathas we gave a better account of our fighting prowess, not as effective as Muslims though. Also our excessive tolerance with Muslim subjects in Hindu lands proved to be our downfall many times (most important: Vijaynagar). India has a similar situation today with her 19 crore Muslim population enjoying all the fruits that would never have been possible in the converse case. Here's hoping we never have a repeat of the last millennium and all Indians can live in peace.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Gollum

[randomGuy]

31 minutes ago, Gollum said:

 

We are better than them in most sports as can be gauged in the medals table in Olympics, CWG, Asian Games etc right from 1947. However as correctly pointed out we don't have rivalries in most sports. Besides cricket and hockey we have always had gun tennis, badminton, boxing, wrestling, billiards/snooker, chess, shooting stars while they have had great squash, snooker, boxing and wrestling stars. But they have never translated into any rivalry because these sports had popularity in 1 country but not another. Also these sports don't have mass popularity in this part of the world, albeit things are changing for the better in India especially badminton. In sports like football, rugby, basketball, volleyball we both suck..nowhere near the top level, impossible to create a big rivalry when a 130th ranked team meets a 150th ranked one.

 

In cricket and hockey however both India and Pakistan have reached the top level. Both have won WCs and other big trophies (Olympic gold, CT, WT20....), both have topped the ranking and both have produced all time legends. Needless to say cricket is by and far the no 1 sport in our countries and field hockey is the national sport in both countries. There were times when field hockey was no 1 in both countries. No other sport in India or Pakistan has reached the level of these 2, although we have produced world champs in other sports. Pakistan lead the H2H in both these sports, that too is a cold hard fact. Cricket rivalry has been discussed long and hard on ICF (tampering, fixing, umpiring, WC record all covered) but one peculiar often overlooked stat I would like to point out is that we are almost equal in the H2H since 2003 WC. This phase (2003-2018) is our greatest era and Pakistan's worst. Yet they have fought beyond their capabilities on the cricket field against a consistently higher ranked team. Same trend can be observed in hockey. In their worst era (post 2000) they have a winning H2H against us when we have been better than them. However there is no streak here, they have dominated or competed well in all the big trophies in this period, they have a winning record against us in neutral venues....really nothing to escape this fact. They have done this as an inferior team, they raise their game against us and become extremely clutch and ruthless when they see India on the other side. Cricket and hockey are like jihad on the turf for them, you can see that in their bodylanguage and intensity. The only reason why we struggle against them is mentality, we refuse to treat the match any differently while for them an India match is do or die. There was a 5 nation series in Europe some 10 years back: Netherlands, Gernany, Australia, India and Pakistan. I watched that entire tournament and India played very well against the top 3 sides in the tournament. There was some problem in Pak hockey and hence their top players sat out of that tourney, leaving their rejects and juniors to play that tournament. We won a match against Germany, drew many hard fought matches an lost a couple that too narrowly to Netherlands and Australia because of last minute choking. Those 3 teams blasted Pakistan with scorelines like 8-0, 7-0, 6-1..... but when Pak came up against us their team of rookies smashed us convincingly both times with our stalwarts playing like kittens. That is when I understood Pak mentality in Indo-Pak games, unlike us they can never treat this as just another game, they will come hard at us every single time. Do you think it is a coincidence that Shoaib Malik/Salman Butt>>Sachin in Indo-Pak matches or Fakhar Zamaan/Nasir Jamshed>>Kohli? The forces aren't even comparable but something happens to them. Extending this to hockey, they had a striker called Rehan Butt who was *, he would do nothing whole year but against India he would run circles around us, there was never an Indo-Pak match in the 2000s without Rehan Butt on the goals scored column, even if he played for 2 minutes he would score a goal and go.

In wrestling, boxing, we are world class. Don't give excuses for Pakistanis where as the fact is, we are world class in these ancient sports. Perhaps you don't know how much natural talent, strength aggression fearlessness stamina one requires for these sports. You should maybe come visit some training centre in haryana. 

 

Kabaddi as well, would easily have more players playing than hockey in India Pakistan. 

 

Weight lifting - we might be slightly short of being world class, but miles ahead of Pakistan. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gollum]

20 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

In wrestling, boxing, we are world class. Don't give excuses for Pakistanis where as the fact is, we are world class in these ancient sports. Perhaps you don't know how much natural talent, strength aggression fearlessness stamina one requires for these sports. You should maybe come visit some training centre in haryana. 

 

Kabaddi as well, would easily have more players playing than hockey in India Pakistan. 

 

Weight lifting - we might be slightly short of being world class, but miles ahead of Pakistan. 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrestling we are good but since when? Only the last 10 years or so. Moreover there are 15 countries better than us in wrestling. World class means bar should be higher don't you think?

 

And in boxing we aren't world class. We have only Vijender in the professional circuits and our performance in Olympics can't make us world class in amateur boxing. USA/Russia/Eng are world class in professional boxing, Cuba/Uzbekistan are world class in amateur boxing because they win 5+ medals each Olympics. We are merely decent.

 

Weightlifting we aren't world class, we only do well in small competitions. Our only weightlifting medal came way back in 2000 by Karnam Malleshwari.

 

But I am not able to understand the context of your post. I already mentioned that we are way better than Pakistan in most sports as can be seen in medal tallies in the major games. But we can't have rivalries in these sports because they lack mas popularity. Honestly tell me do you even follow wrestling/weightlifting results apart from Olympics/CWG/Asian Games.? I certainly don't, in fact I will be hard pressed to name many of our medal winners of last month's CWG. Cricket and hockey are our most important sports. One is a religion, the other is our national sport. One can bring the country to a stop, the other gave us 8 Olympic Golds and our greatest ever sportsman.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Gollum

[sarcastic]

52 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Anyway feel we are digressing from the underlying issue about our medieval history. Hindus could never unite and channelize their collective energy but Muslims were able to do just that because of their religion. Their calls for jihad on the battlefield and ruthless treatment of Hindu prisoners, civilians, places of worship, women.....all in accordance with their religious guidelines had a big role in our subservience for 700 odd years. Whenever we could unite under religion for brief times eg Sikhs or Marathas we gave a better account of our fighting prowess, not as effective as Muslims though. Also our excessive tolerance with Muslim subjects in Hindu lands proved to be our downfall many times (most important: Vijaynagar). India has a similar situation today with her 19 crore Muslim population enjoying all the fruits that would never have been possible in the converse case. Here's hoping we never have a repeat of the last millennium and all Indians can live in peace.

The 19 crore will slowly grow and grow and reach a significant tipping point. Then there will be another partition for a separate state for muslims of Indian and another secular India. Rinse and repeat. The peace is only in this "process". 

[randomGuy]

@Gollum

1. Wrestling, boxing are most ancient sports. They are not popular in pakistan because they aren't good at it, not vice versa.

2. Who has more warrior-like qualities - one who's good at Wrestling, boxing or one who's good at cricket, hockey?

3. How many people in India pak have access to hockey, balls, astro turf etc.? Comfortably more people play Kabaddi here where we beat them.

4. You need to spend some time among Haryanvis etc. Don't be afraid of their language if you are. These people are probably as tough and fearless as anyone in the world which is why you see natural inclination for wrestling/boxing/kabaddi. 

 

5. Since You have yourself brought a invalid (imho) point of sports, Let me have the last post and let's move on.

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

@Gollum

1. Wrestling, boxing are most ancient sports. They are not popular in pakistan because they aren't good at it, not vice versa.

2. Who has more warrior-like qualities - one who's good at Wrestling, boxing or one who's good at cricket, hockey?

3. How many people in India pak have access to hockey, balls, astro turf etc.? Comfortably more people play Kabaddi here where we beat them.

4. You need to spend some time among Haryanvis etc. Don't be afraid of their language if you are. These people are probably as tough and fearless as anyone in the world which is why you see natural inclination for wrestling/boxing/kabaddi. 

 

5. Since You have yourself brought a invalid (imho) point of sports, Let me have the last post and let's move on.

Bhai I am not talking about warrior like qualities or toughness or courage. I was making the point about how one side uses the religion card to play beyond its potential against another team. How religion unites one side against the other.... this is infeasible in India (Hindus mainly) because we are too divided by caste/sub-caste, language, region etc....this has been a weakness of ours for centuries. No matter how many negatives Islam has it unites Muslims to achieve a certain goal, this attribute is missing in our religion. My last post on this, let's move on.

[randomGuy]

@Gollum bhai you still haven't got it. Allah saves them in cricket/hockey because they are good at it. Doesn't save them in wrestling/boxing/kabaddi etc. because they aren't good at it.

 

The whole sports point itself is invalid.

[Singh bling]

2 hours ago, randomGuy said:

. Wrestling, boxing are most ancient sports. They are not popular in pakistan because they aren't good at it, not vice versa.


2. Who has more warrior-like qualities - one who's good at Wrestling, boxing or one who's good at cricket, hockey?


3. How many people in India pak have access to hockey, balls, astro turf etc.? Comfortably more people play Kabaddi here where we beat them.

Amatuer Boxing , Wrestling in Olympics are not warrior like sports.There are special weight categories which short small men can do wrestling.moreover points system in these sports make it extremely difficult for viewers to understand.

 

Both are extremely risky sports so they are so heavily regulated that it kills the entertainment.Even in USA to popularise wrestling they need to use fake form of it in WWE.

 

My cousins were ex emerging hockey players and i discussed this , they told me there are enough astro turf grounds but after astro turf the game became more speedier which was weak point of Indians

[Tibarn]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:00 PM, Gollum said:

Yet in the 21st century this is our H2H:

India 30 Pak 35......improving in our favour of late but not good enough because we have been consistently ranked above them

We played 2 test series (6 and 8 matches wallah), both won by them

They have H2H edge in tournament finals

They lead in Olympics, we lead in WC, they lead in Champions Trophy, we lead in Asian Games...so in major tournaments we are even

 

I know for sure that we are better, but is it translating to results? Against  top European teams, Australia, Argentina, South Korea etc we have a much better record compared to Pakistan, we have had more podium finishes yet in H2H matches we are lagging. I am crazy about field hockey and have watched most matches of the Indian team for almost 15 years now. My observation is that Pak lifts its game tremendously against us while we tend to play lazily, not enough vigour. We also tend to choke lots of matches against them by letting in last minute goals or conceding soft PCs. This is changing in the last 3-4 years because we have too much talent in our ranks while Pak is almost entering minnow status. But still we need to be more ruthless like they were when they were a better team in the 80s and 90s.     

The thing is, on a PPP GDP per Capita basis, we only surpassed al-Bakistan in around 2006-2009, so it hasn't even been a decade where an average Indian is wealthier than an average Bakistani

 

see this graph

and this table

 

 

In all honesty, Bakistanis were expected to outperform us in sports all the way up to mid-2000s. The gap should grow between us now, IMO.

 

The fact that Bakistanis can't do anything in CWGs in comparison to us is enough proof of how pathetic their record is in sports...

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:07 PM, Singh bling said:

Not true for all sports , Jamaica produces world's best sprinters and its GDP is nowhere at top.Moreover Windies dominated test cricket over much gdp nations of England and Australia

Sure, especially regarding West Indies in cricket, but some of the Caribbean nations also have developed nation GDP per capitas as well. For example, Trinidad and Tobago has a GDP per Capita PPP of over 30,000. This is higher than what one would think are developed countries in Europe like Poland, Hungary, Greece, and Turkey. So they are not all poor.

 

One can argue that Jamaica is a special case. They dominate short distance sprinting/similar sports. They actually have a unique genetic population in that country which seems to make them great sprinters,

see this from 

The Genes who make the Champions: “Can Genes predict Athletic Performance?” by Dr. Karl J. Neeser∗

 

The ACTN3 gene is considered a "speed gene" in sports science research. By random chance Jamaica seemed to have lucked into having a large population of people, 70% according to this, which have a crucial gene for speed.

 

 

[Yoda-esque]

Mughals ruled Gangetic belt for less than 200 years..yet their consciousness into the Dhimmi mind far exceeds that time period.