Is Kane Williamson the modern day Dravid?

[Gollum]

7 hours ago, sandeep said:

If there was "no question" about Dravid's place, why was he ever dropped from the ODI team?

 

 

Was he dropped in 2002? I don't remember all his ODI matches, hence asking. 

7 hours ago, sandeep said:

I have always railed against Dada's slow-poky batting.  To the extent that I criticize Rohit sharma for his Ganguly-esque starts - both of them ate a lot of dot balls during the initial powerplay, and relied heavily on boundaries to shore up their scoring rate.  The thing is, as bad as Ganguly was, Dravid was worse in the 90s. 

 

To Dravid's credit however, he really raised his ODI game from 2003 onwards, and ended up being much better as an ODI bat.  Dada couldn't really manage that, but had a far better streak during the 2nd half of the 1990s.  That's when Gangu was in his pomp as an ODI bat, and relative to that era, his SR was respectable.  And even relative to that era, Dravid's was not.  

 

 

LOL Ganguly was never bad (even SR wise) in the 90s. He was a stalwart in ODIs till 2003. Please come up with an explanation as to how Dada was bad in the 90s and who all were better than him in that period. From memory I can tell you that he almost matched SRT pound for pound in the 100s column and also MOM awards. There were moments when he even overshadowed the Mumbaikar. Till 2000 end he played 158 ODIs, scored 16 100s and 24 MOM awards !!!! HERE and HERE

1999 WC: Dada was 3rd highest run scorer- 379 runs, avg 54, SR 81 HERE

2000 Mini World Cup: Dada leading run scorer and MOS- 348 runs, avg 116, SR 84 HERE

2002 ICC CT: 9th highest run getter, avg 72, SR 107 HERE

In all these 3 tournaments he outclassed many ODI ATGs, including brutally overshadowing SRT every single time. In 2003 WC SRT was a beast and Dada too did quite well.  

 

You rightly criticize Rohit for his Ganguly type starts but can't do cross era comparisons, in the 90s 250 was more often than not a winning score and hence Gangu could be excused. Ofc he failed to adapt later on and hence got the axe.

 

Looking at your 2 paras there is a contradiction. In one you are harsh towards Dada and in the other more lenient, you got to stick to 1 assertion. 

 

Dada's SR was hardly 2-3 points above Dravid. How can one be respectable for that era and the other not so? That too openers had better SR then because of 15 overs fielding restrictions against brand new hard ball.

 

Dravid didn't raise his ODI game from 2003 onwards. He did it in 1999 itself including his stellar show in 1999 WC, that was one of the highest levels of ODI batting for that era.  Even in 2000 and 2002 CTs he did quite well. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Gollum

[master22]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

If there was "no question" about Dravid's place, why was he ever dropped from the ODI team?

 

 

He was never dropped after 1998 (until 2007). Here we are talking about Dravid's ODI place in 2002 when he took up keeping (infact he was the VC at that time). I don't see any correlation between him being dropped from the ODI side in 1998 to him taking up keeping in 2002 to get a place in the ODI side.

[kohli]

8 hours ago, sandeep said:

If there was "no question" about Dravid's place, why was he ever dropped from the ODI team?

 

 

Even sehwag,ganguly,yuvraj dropped from Indian odi team

[jusarrived]

13 hours ago, rahulrulezz said:

I don’t know if I should even laugh at this. Star worshipping is part of our culture and Dravid fans are the special breeds. 

 

Dravid was the worst when it came to crossing the inner circle. He could time the ball and use pace of the ball, but even there, he could never get it timed over the infield. KL Rahul, he is a different class altogether in LOI when it comes to hard hitting and timing the ball. 

abye band kar apana ghyan . I have seen you have orgasms over "aggressive" cricketers typically seen with Pak fans , rating players based on how they look and their antics on and off the field may be is your problem alone .

 

[Gollum]

5 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

abye band kar apana ghyan . I have seen you have orgasms over "aggressive" cricketers typically seen with Pak fans , rating players based on how they look and their antics on and off the field may be is your problem alone .

 

He's a nice poster yaar. Everyone including you and me is biased in some facet or another, but takes courage to own up.....he re evaluated his position on Dravid in another post in this same thread.

[Gollum]

10 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

A pretty good article on Dravid's evolution as an ODI batsman.

Great share and nice analysis by the writer. As I guessed RD was a liability only in the 1996-98 period. His turnaround came in 1999. I forgot about our tour to NZ in 1998-99, our standout batsman in both forms of the game. I guess that tour announced Rahul Dravid's arrival to the world, he continued his rich vein of form in the WC as well.

[rahulrulezz]

43 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

abye band kar apana ghyan . I have seen you have orgasms over "aggressive" cricketers typically seen with Pak fans , rating players based on how they look and their antics on and off the field may be is your problem alone .

 

awww mere pussy kat ko bura laga

Edited May 18, 2018 by rahulrulezz

[Number]

Character wise yes but no one can match RD in the art of crawling. 

Although significance of s/r is quite less in tests but some of his blockthons were directly responsible for India not winning the game which they could have.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14366/scorecard/258470/england-vs-india-3rd-test-india-tour-of-ireland-england-and-scotland-2007 

 

We were leading by 329 runs in the 3rd innings of the game, when he came to the crease.

And then scored epic 12 runs in 96 balls. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Number

[jusarrived]

30 minutes ago, rahulrulezz said:

awww mere pussy kat ko bura laga

Lol definitely a wanker

[jusarrived]

2 hours ago, Number said:

Character wise yes but no one can match RD in the art of crawling. 

Although significance of s/r is quite less in tests but some of his blockthons were directly responsible for India not winning the game which they could have.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14366/scorecard/258470/england-vs-india-3rd-test-india-tour-of-ireland-england-and-scotland-2007 

 

We were leading by 329 runs in the 3rd innings of the game, when he came to the crease.

And then scored epic 12 runs in 96 balls. 

We cudnt win that game not cos our bowlers only managed 6 wickets in 110 overs ? How may more does a bowling team normally need to bowl out an opposition in 4th innings ? 

 

 

[mancalledsting]

17 hours ago, sandeep said:

Revisionist history.  Dravid sucked as an ODI batsman in the 1998 to 2002 period.  

lol... I watched all of 99 and 2003 WC and he was great in those tourneys. Rather have a big tourney player than a rohit Sharma who runs riot in cycle pure agarbathies series but is a pussy cat on the big stage. 

[Brainfade]

13 hours ago, gattaca said:

Not denying he was boring he was talking in a modern context at that time.Funny thing was Pakistan hired him as coach.

 

If Geoffrey had played cricket the way he talked he would have had people queuing up to get into the ground instead of queuing up to leave.^[161]

– Fred Trueman on Boycott's commentating career in 1993

The only batsman more boring to watch was Chris Tavare, his opening partner for some years.  

[Number]

3 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

We cudnt win that game not cos our bowlers only managed 6 wickets in 110 overs ? How may more does a bowling team normally need to bowl out an opposition in 4th innings ? 

 

 

 We didn't win because we were playing for a draw as we were 1-0 up.

But tell me is 12(96) justified in that position ?

[jusarrived]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

He's a nice poster yaar. Everyone including you and me is biased in some facet or another, but takes courage to own up.....he re evaluated his position on Dravid in another post in this same thread.

 I just saw his post just now , anyway not a problem if someone likes or dislikes a player 

[sarcastic]

15 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

 lol... I watched all of 99 and 2003 WC and he was great in those tourneys. Rather have a big tourney player than a rohit Sharma who runs riot in cycle pure agarbathies series but is a pussy cat on the big stage. 

Rohit Sharma is not bad in big tourneys too. He is inconsistent but did make contributions. Better examples need to be given... not Rohit IMO.

[jusarrived]

18 minutes ago, Number said:

 We didn't win because we were playing for a draw as we were 1-0 up.

But tell me is 12(96) justified in that position ?

How where they not playing for a win . Setting a target in tests is different from ODIs . Clearly they had decided to give England 110 overs to chase the target , os they where just playing out the overs . 

[master22]

2 hours ago, Number said:

Character wise yes but no one can match RD in the art of crawling. 

Although significance of s/r is quite less in tests but some of his blockthons were directly responsible for India not winning the game which they could have.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14366/scorecard/258470/england-vs-india-3rd-test-india-tour-of-ireland-england-and-scotland-2007 

 

We were leading by 329 runs in the 3rd innings of the game, when he came to the crease.

And then scored epic 12 runs in 96 balls. 

Every batsman has one or two such knocks in his career. Even a batsman as great as Sachin scored 16 runs in 98 balls.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14934/scorecard/64127/India-vs-Pakistan-3rd-Test-pakistan-tour-of-india-2004-05/#gp-inning-00

 

I can't think of any other test match ( other than probably Capetown 2006 along with Sachin) where RD slow innings costed India a test win.

Dravid has scored the most runs by an Indian batsman in overseas wins.

[Number]

22 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

How where they not playing for a win . Setting a target in tests is different from ODIs . Clearly they had decided to give England 110 overs to chase the target , os they where just playing out the overs . 

Sachin bowling 19 of those 110 overs gives an idea how serious we were about winning this.

[Gollum]

51 minutes ago, Number said:

 We didn't win because we were playing for a draw as we were 1-0 up.

But tell me is 12(96) justified in that position ?

That was pretty slow, but most great players have such knocks a few times in their long careers. 

 

Now I watched that match, so context matters. Most of us were surprised as to why we didn't enforce follow on, may be bowler fatigue could have been a reason. When we came 2nd time around it suddenly became very very overcast and the new ball started doing all sorts of things. IIRC it was even drizzling a while in the final session and our batsmen had to go on and off. In England overhead conditions can make even benign surfaces look like spitting cobras and that day was no different. Our top order were getting beaten left and right, made to look like novices, SRT was playing and missing every 2nd ball, soon we were 10/3.....those who saw that match live were really afraid that we would get bowled out under 3 figures, that's how difficult batting was then and Jimmy Anderson was exhibiting a swing bowling masterclass out there. Now comes the context, we hadn't won a series there for 22 years and were 1-0 up, only needing a draw in the final test to get the Pataudi Trophy. If we had gotten bowled out for 80 odd we would have allowed England a sniff at equalizing the scoreline. Dravid became a wall and Dada started counter attack. He was living dangerously and almost got out a few times but somehow pulled it off, that was brilliant by him...in fact that Dada (post 2006 SA tour) was the best version of Dada in test cricket. Dravid didn't score many but literally became a human wall during the course of that partnership. When he got out the ball had lost its shine and the sun was also out making life easier for the remaining batsmen. We left the declaration too late, ideally should have set them 450 to win in 125 odd overs...I blame poor captaincy more than defensive batting there. First not enforcing follow on when the conditions were overcast and then late declaration. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Gollum

[Number]

9 minutes ago, master22 said:

Every batsman has one or two such knocks in his career. Even a batsman as great as Sachin scored 16 runs in 98 balls.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14934/scorecard/64127/India-vs-Pakistan-3rd-Test-pakistan-tour-of-india-2004-05/#gp-inning-00

 

I can't think of any other test match ( other than probably Capetown 2006 along with Sachin) where RD slow innings costed India a test win.

 Dravid has scored the most runs by an Indian batsman in overseas wins.

I'll give you another one 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/15442/scorecard/63962/india-vs-england-2nd-test-england-tour-of-india-2001-02/

We should have got close to England's score if not for momentum killing 7 of 60.