The Indian pace bowling depth.

[prudent_kreeda]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Our pace bowling depth is very good for test matches.   5 good quicks (  Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Umesh, Bhuvi )   in the squad.  Siraj, Saini and Rajpoot are good and experienced backups.

 

But poor A-team selections regarding pacers in the 50-over format,  have marred the creation of proper backups for ODIs.

 

We have a wealth of pace bowling talent now ...  but we pick our ODI teams and backups based on IPL performances these days.  This has led to Kaul, Chahar, Thakur seeping in.   And they have blocked valuable A-team slots for the 50 over format too.

 

Look at our A-team selection for List-A matches on the tour to NZ.   Just 3 pacers which include Kaul and Chahar. These are the seamers who are next in line according to the selectors.  How will proper backups be created  !

 

We should have focused on Khaleel, Saini, Prasidh, Mavi and Rajpoot for the 50 over format.  And Tushar Deshpande is looking promising now. But all of them, apart from Khaleel, have been ignored.  Depth is there but proper talent are not being developed.

       I would add the role of State team selectors also in this . 

       You will see some young talents being given chance in  A, B C teams  like in deodhar as well as in  India A  teams 

        So may be Dravid with junior selectors are identifying and trying to give chances to them but not supported by states . 

       You see number of matches played by them for states its very poor.

         Rajastan :-  Rahul chahar included in Deodhar trophy  but has played 1 FC game so far since debuting in 2016 , Khaleel

          hadly any exposure, Nathu - played 1-2 game after injury  , but not heard after that. 

        UP -  Shivam Mavi plays in one game but droped for the rest. 

        Karnataka -   Prasidh K - reaches upto India  A level teams but has played 1 FC game.

        MP -  Avesh Khan , since his debut in 2014 has played 8 FC games !!!  but was palying vs WI team recently. 

         Only exception seems to  be Shaw & this year - Gill . 

        I think this year is very crucial and state teams & Junior selection team must  ensure those in the radar should be given as   many chances in state teams .

        We seem to be building our replacements in batting in Shaw, Gill , Vihari  but there seems to be no vision re: spinners and pacers. 

        By now there is clear indication of potential replacement candidates but selectors need to do follow up act. 

       Pace bowling -  Need replacements for Bhuvi, Shami , Umesh

       WC u-19, IPL & recent A level matches have shown that Mavi, Nagarkoti, Prasidh, Rajpoot , Avesh  are the ones to  be  consistently groomed and played for next set of pace bowlers .

     Excluding  here Saini, Siraj as they are atleast getting regular chances upto A level teams, so should be in team soon .

      Spin Bowling:- Need replacements for ODI team -  Alternative to Chahal needed . 

       Markande, Rahul Chahar & Shreyas Gopal  should be in contention .

     Spin Bowling Allrounder :- Need replacements for Jadeja & Axar

       Anukul Roy , W. Sundar, Krulnal Pandya to be consistetently played .

    Need to also look for Pace bowler with some batting ability.  

       

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by prudent_kreeda

[Nikola]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

Bhuvi does have variations and death bowling ability which Umesh definitely does not have and Shami relies on pace and seam movement on flat odi wickets he gives runs but Bhuv has not been able to replicate his form often and not able to take wickets with old ball. Between Shami and Buvi it could be a tossup with bhuvi making thw cut often. Umesh is not good enough for sure.

Shami if plays all odis will finish in top 5 odi bowler for india. For Bhuvi he will be not even in top 30.

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, Nikola said:

Shami if plays all odis will finish in top 5 odi bowler for india. For Bhuvi he will be not even in top 30.

Exactly we have never let (circa)every other player to settle,Bumrah was a complete package right from the start

He became a certainity on merit

But you wont get a Bumrah from every rookie at the start

One needs time and confidence to mature,not happened of late with others

For the last 12-13 years it has become a norm ,selections have been made on personal preferences and short term goals,

Selectors have now found themselves in a situation of which they have been warned long before,infact they are aware of it and realize its too late to throw out the ones they have invested time on and neither they can try others

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

       I would add the role of State team selectors also in this . 

       You will see some young talents being given chance in  A, B C teams  like in deodhar as well as in  India A  teams 

        So may be Dravid with junior selectors are identifying and trying to give chances to them but not supported by states . 

       You see number of matches played by them for states its very poor.

         Rajastan :-  Rahul chahar included in Deodhar trophy  but has played 1 FC game so far since debuting in 2016 , Khaleel

          hadly any exposure, Nathu - played 1-2 game after injury  , but not heard after that. 

        UP -  Shivam Mavi plays in one game but droped for the rest. 

        Karnataka -   Prasidh K - reaches upto India  A level teams but has played 1 FC game.

        MP -  Avesh Khan , since his debut in 2014 has played 8 FC games !!!  but was palying vs WI team recently. 

         Only exception seems to  be Shaw & this year - Gill . 

 

Very important point.  I wrote about this issue regarding Avesh, Khaleel and Prasidh some time back in the Speed thread.

 

And it is more prevalent regarding bowlers.

 

I think the CoA / BCCI should look into this issue and talk with all the state boards.

 

Quote

       

        By now there is clear indication of potential replacement candidates but selectors need to do follow up act. 

       Pace bowling -  Need replacements for Bhuvi, Shami , Umesh

       WC u-19, IPL & recent A level matches have shown that Mavi, Nagarkoti, Prasidh, Rajpoot , Avesh  are the ones to  be  consistently groomed and played for next set of pace bowlers .

     Excluding  here Saini, Siraj as they are atleast getting regular chances upto A level teams, so should be in team soon .

      Spin Bowling:- Need replacements for ODI team -  Alternative to Chahal needed . 

       Markande, Rahul Chahar & Shreyas Gopal  should be in contention .

     Spin Bowling Allrounder :- Need replacements for Jadeja & Axar

       Anukul Roy , W. Sundar, Krulnal Pandya to be consistetently played .

    Need to also look for Pace bowler with some batting ability.  

       

 

We are getting good players in the test teams because ...  4-day A-teams are selected based on FC performances by the correct types of players ...  and test team New entrants are chosen from such A-teams.

But regarding the 50 over format ...  A-team selections are often being made based on the IPL.  Same regarding Newer entrants to the ODI teams.

 

Correct types of players needed for ODIs are often not being chosen as a result.

 

So ...  I am not that hopeful about the players that we are discussing getting selected.

 

The Mavis and Nagarkotis may get sidelined if they are unable to perform in the IPL.  

Edited October 28, 2018 by express bowling

[UrmiSinhaRay]

 
We are getting good players in the test teams because ...  4-day A-teams are selected based on FC performances by the correct types of players ...  and test team New entrants are chosen from such A-teams.

But regarding the 50 over format ...  A-team selections are often being made based on the IPL.  Same regarding Newer entrants to the ODI teams.
 
Correct types of players needed for ODIs are often not being chosen.
 
So ...  I am not that hopeful about the players that we are discussing getting selected.
 
The Mavis and Nagarkotis may get sidelined if they are unable to perform in the IPL.  

I think Dravid chooses these A teams but else truth to be told, Indians really don't have good fast bowlers.
Yes - a lot more people are getting into fast bowling because of Better facilities But at the end- either most of The Indian fast bowlers aren't talented enough or they aren't able to reach potential due to Wrong management.

Also, many players who are sitting in bench looks good when they don't play.

Sent from my CPH1609 using Tapatalk

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, UrmiSinhaRay said:

truth to be told, Indians really don't have good fast bowlers.

 

That is not the case these days.  We have 3 pacers in test matches, Bumrah, Bhuvi and Shami,  who average 25, 26 and 29 respectively.  Umesh averages 32.  And all have excellent strike rates.  That is a world class attack.

 

We have been able to pick 20 opposition wickets in most innings on our away tours in the last 3 years.

 

In ODIs, Bumrah is the number 1 ODI pacer in the World averaging 21.

 

Quote

Yes - a lot more people are getting into fast bowling because of Better facilities But at the end- either most of The Indian fast bowlers aren't talented enough or they aren't able to reach potential due to Wrong management.

 

They are being managed excellently these days right from the U19 level.  They are improving in fitness and pace like never before ...  while our injury management is better than Australia.

 

The only major issues I see are ...  pushing IPL trundlers in ODIs and 50-over A-teams ...  and state associations benching promising quicks in FC.

 

Quote

Also, many players who are sitting in bench looks good when they don't play.
 

 

Our U19 pacers have been far more impressive than other countries in the last 4 years.

 

Our 4-day A-team pacers have done better than their contemporaries from other countries,  especially Siraj.

 

These are actual performances and not perceptions.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by express bowling

[Suhaan]

On Sat Oct 27 2018 at 6:26 PM, Vilander said:

No there is plenty of options but not enough time to groom before wc. You need the present crop in the mix for wc. Even umadkat will be trusted more that a greenhorn unfortunately

The problem lies with the coaching staff available at this level , specially those who are with the national team,say Bharat Arun,he is the danger man as far as fast bowling is concerened,iirc he was dibbly dobbly bowler back in his days,and have also heard puts emphasis on cutters,slower ones, no wonder he would have got quite easy to impose his foolish ideas on a rookie by being authoritative here

[express bowling]

One important issue that needs discussion is ...  natural bounce of a pacer and his ability to hit the splice of the bat when he hits the deck hard.  This results in the batsmen unable to hit using the sweet spot of the bat. And runs are checked if the pacer is accurate enough. This quality is especially important in ODIs.

 

1)  Bumrah has this ability.  Which is why he is so successful in ODIs. 

 

2)  Most Indian ODI pacers, other than Bumrah,  lack natural bounce.  Which is why they are so easy to hit.  This applies to Kaul, Chahar, Umesh, Shami and Shardul.

   Even Bhuvi lacks natural bounce but makes up with extra accuracy when he is in form. On bad days, he gets hit too.

 

3)   Khaleel has natural bounce.  But, in this series, he has not hit the deck hard.  And has not got that natural bounce. 

      During the Asia Cup,  he was hitting the deck hard and got bounce.

 

4)  In the near future in ODIs ,  I  hope we are able to bring forth accurate pacers who hit the deck hard and have natural bounce .

 

Try  Khaleel, Mavi, Prasidh, Deshpande,  Rajpoot etc.

Edited October 29, 2018 by express bowling

[Lannister]

Bumrah, Shami, Saini and Khaleel/Kejroliya should be our pace bowlers for the world cup. Khaleel need to up his pace or he misses out. 

 

Kumar, Thakur and Chahal should be thrown out. 

 

[Jamadagni]

Look at how Shaheen Afridi is performing....as if he has been around for many years... now compare him with Khaleel, who was hyped to moon before his debut.... I hope Saini at least lives upto the hype when he finally gets the chance. Don't have much hopes on Shivam Mavi... seems like another Umesh/Aaron in making. 

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

.. now compare him with Khaleel, who was hyped to moon before his debut..

 

11 wickets from only 6 ODIs ...  ER of only 5.1

 

3 wickets from 2 T20is ...  ER of only 5.8

 

Skills displayed include swing, bounce, yorkers, slower balls, bouncers  etc.

 

Dream start to his career in terms of effectiveness.

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Don't have much hopes on Shivam Mavi... seems like another Umesh/Aaron in making. 

 

Why  ?

 

Rookie Aaron lacked accuracy or ability to move the ball with any consistency.

 

Umesh lacked accuracy and natural bounce.

 

Mavi combines pace, natural bounce and big inswing.  And his accuracy is decent too.

[Global.Baba]

Along with names can we also track their actual stats during the season or over the last 1 year across all formats?

 

 

[Nikola]

There are people who are talking about hype khaleel has got but come on we have bhubi who gets to play 100 odis at avg of 40 so how come this khaleel is hyped? atleast he has performed till now.

[Jamadagni]

38 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

11 wickets from only 6 ODIs ...  ER of only 5.1

 

3 wickets from 2 T20is ...  ER of only 5.8

 

Skills displayed include swing, bounce, yorkers, slower balls, bouncers  etc.

 

Dream start to his career in terms of effectiveness.

 

 

 

 

Why  ?

 

Rookie Aaron lacked accuracy or ability to move the ball with any consistency.

 

Umesh lacked accuracy and natural bounce.

 

Mavi combines pace, natural bounce and big inswing.  And his accuracy is decent too.

Performance wise, he's been decent but his lack of pace is a worry. Shaheen has been hovering around 140 since his debutast year while Khaleel lost his pace in a week. Mavi from what I saw doesn't seem to have a great cricketing brain. Haven't seen much of Saini, whom everyone rates very highly on here. Hope he does well at least. 

[rkt.india]

36 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Performance wise, he's been decent but his lack of pace is a worry. Shaheen has been hovering around 140 since his debutast year while Khaleel lost his pace in a week. Mavi from what I saw doesn't seem to have a great cricketing brain. Haven't seen much of Saini, whom everyone rates very highly on here. Hope he does well at least. 

kahan hovering around 140.  today his quickest was 88 mph around 142, average 83 mph around 134.   Khaleel bowler quicker than that in Asia cup.

[express bowling]

44 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

. Shaheen has been hovering around 140 since his debutast year

 

Not in ODIs.

 

First ODI vs NZ,  Shaheen bowled a fastest of 139.x kph.  Could not even cross 140 k.  Average speed of 134 k.

 

In the Asia Cup match against Bangladesh, the same thing happened.

 

Quote

while Khaleel lost his pace in a week.

 

Don't like this aspect at all.  But looks like it is due to Arun tinkering with his action.

 

Quote

Mavi from what I saw doesn't seem to have a great cricketing brain. 

 

Let's him get a bit of FC and List A experience.  Only then will we find out. 

 

He is too raw now.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by express bowling

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

kahan hovering around 140.  today his quickest was 88 mph around 142, average 83 mph around 134.   Khaleel bowler quicker than that in Asia cup.

 

Shaheen is usually bowling 130 k to 140 k in ODIs now.

[Jamadagni]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not in ODIs.

 

First ODI vs NZ,  Shaheen bowled a fastest of 139.x kph.  Could not even cross 140 k.  Average speed of 134 k.

 

In the Asia Cup match against Bangladesh, the same thing happened.

 

 

Don't like this aspect at all.  But looks like it is due to Arun tinkering with his action.

 

 

Let's him get a bit of FC and List A experience.  Only then will we find out. 

 

He is too raw now.

 

 

Shaheen is 6'6. He doesn't even need to bowl that quick. But bowlers like Khaleel have to if they have to succeed at this level or else they would go the Hassan ali way despite the initial success. 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Shaheen is 6'6. He doesn't even need to bowl that quick. But bowlers like Khaleel have to if they have to succeed at this level or else they would go the Hassan ali way despite the initial success. 

Shaheen is not 6'6", max 6'4, Khaleel is 6'2"

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Shaheen is 6'6. He doesn't even need to bowl that quick. But bowlers like Khaleel have to if they have to succeed at this level or else they would go the Hassan ali way despite the initial success. 

 

Shaheen looks maximum 6'4" when he stands around other Pakistani players.  He is very tall but 6'6" could be a bit of a marketing gimmick.

 

Khaleel is  around 6'2" and quite tall and bouncy.  Hasan Ali is around 5'8".  Chalk and cheese in terms of height.

Edited November 9, 2018 by express bowling