Bhuvneswar Kumar ODI bowling discussion thread

[gakgupta]

On 1/16/2019 at 2:15 AM, vvvslaxman said:

First game he conceded a lot at the death. He got it all wrong. Second game he has done well.

Well...if you bench a player for long time, he will be definitely rusty...

 

All Bhuvi needs is one game to get back in rhythm...

 

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, CSK Fan said:

I will accept this stat if you accept solely based on his test stats he is way better than Shami and ishant and a must in playing xi. No mental gymnastics and excuses there

Average alone is not everything.  BK has 3 wickets per test, Shami 3.6 wickets per test, Ishant 2.97 per test, Umesh 2.91 wickets per test.  Yes, except Shami, he has been better than others but it is not others fault that he missed two test series because of injury and fitness in England and Australia.  Also, his wickets per game is one of the worst in ODIs.  BK is a great T20 bowler, very good test bowler in helpful conditions, and an average ODI bowler.

[zen]

9 hours ago, CSK Fan said:

I will accept this stat if you accept solely based on his test stats he is way better than Shami and ishant and a must in playing xi. No mental gymnastics and excuses there

 

Buddy, the stats that you want to accept involves games involving Bhuvi since 2018. If we do the same for tests:

 

View overall figures [change view] Primary team India  Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018  Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler  Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA)  Bowling position between 1 and 4  Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 5 of 5   First Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10   Mohammed Shami 2 4 52.3 11 149 10 5/28 6/74 14.90 2.83 31.5 1 0 JJ Bumrah 2 4 70.1 7 223 11 5/54 7/111 20.27 3.17 38.2 1 0 B Kumar 2 4 67.0 22 203 10 4/87 6/120 20.30 3.02 40.2 0 0 I Sharma 1 2 30.0 5 64 3 2/31 3/64 21.33 2.13 60.0 0 0

So Shami has considerably better stats (while Ishant only played 1 game) 

 

Now please accept the stats. No mental gymnastics. Thank you!

Edited January 17, 2019 by zen

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

BK is a great T20 bowler, very good test bowler in helpful conditions, and an average ODI bowler.

Which other 'above average' pace bowler should the Indian team trust to bowl the high risk power play and death overs?  Shardul Thakur?  Umesh Yadaav?  Khaleel?  Siraj? 

 

Which other bowler (apart from Bumrah) provides anywhere near the level of control that Bhuvi delivers?  

 

Why does Zaheer Khan say that if you are playing Shami in ODIs, you have to finish his overs before the 35th? 

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

8 hours ago, zen said:

Buddy, the stats that you want to accept involves games involving Bhuvi since 2018.

So 2 matches is considered a viable sample set for aggregate statistics now.  This is just another ICF troll thread at this point, sad that yet another decent contributor falls into this shaiyte.  Ego before logic I guess.

[zen]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So 2 matches is considered a viable sample set for aggregate statistics now.  This is just another ICF troll thread at this point, sad that yet another decent contributor falls into this shaiyte.  Ego before logic I guess.

Don’t expect Sachin fanboys to keep their words and would keep changing their stance .... the numbers are from the same time period (but we have to keep on changing the goalpost) 

 

Below is your posts: 

 

“Bhuvi of the last 20 months is a much improved bowler.  Bhuvi 2.0 is a much better bowler than his numbers suggest. 

 

I'd be very interested in seeing what the 'par' economy rate was in those 16 games that he played.”

 

[The Dark Horse]

33 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Which other 'above average' pace bowler should the Indian team trust to bowl the high risk power play and death overs?  Shardul Thakur?  Umesh Yadaav?  Khaleel?  Siraj? 

 

Which other bowler (apart from Bumrah) provides anywhere near the level of control that Bhuvi delivers?  

 

Why does Zaheer Khan say that if you are playing Shami in ODIs, you have to finish his overs before the 35th? 

 

 

 

 

People go round and round but don't have an answer to this question. The problem is we have tried a few bowlers who have been worse than Bhuvi. There are a few who could be tried, but at this stage it's better to stick to a few pool of bowlers for the world cup. Noone says he's the best bowler, but he's may be the third or fourth best fast bowler even in ODIs.

[R!TTER]

8 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

Noone says he's the best bowler, but he's may be the third or fourth best fast bowler even in ODIs.

From India - probably, he's not even in the top 20 worldwide! But the problem is we never tried any alternatives in the 2 years between CT & WC, none though of replacing Dhoni & none ever thought that just the spinners weren't the problem in CT final 

 

Yes it's fashionable to blame everything on Ashwin & Jadeja, but the 3 pacers certainly didn't cover themselves in glory in that game! Of course the 2 test specialists were discarded but we still didn't fix our pace problem, entirely!

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Don’t expect Sachin fanboys to keep their words and would keep changing their stance .... the numbers are from the same time period (but we have to keep on changing the goalpost) 

 

Below is your posts: 

 

“Bhuvi of the last 20 months is a much improved bowler.  Bhuvi 2.0 is a much better bowler than his numbers suggest. 

 

I'd be very interested in seeing what the 'par' economy rate was in those 16 games that he played.”

 

Are you laughing at your own "jocks" about how 20 months suddenly turns into 12 months to suit your biased agenda?  why didn't you post the test statistics of 20 months?  I think I know why.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin1=3;qualval1=wickets;spanmin2=01+apr+2017;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

[sandeep]

@zen

 

A funny thing happened when I took your statsguru link and changed the time period to start from 1st April 2017.  Bhuvi's stats -  44 wickets at 33.59, 16 maidens, and an economy rate of 5.08.  37 matches is quite a reasonable sample size - and Bhuvi has given the team more than a wicket per match, and a top-shelf economy rate of 5.08 -  10 overs for 51 runs with a high chance of an early wicket.  Those are reasonably decent numbers in aggregate, and tell a very different story than what this thread is trying to claim.

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

From India - probably, he's not even in the top 20 worldwide! But the problem is we never tried any alternatives in the 2 years between CT & WC, none though of replacing Dhoni & none ever thought that just the spinners weren't the problem in CT final 

 

Yes it's fashionable to blame everything on Ashwin & Jadeja, but the 3 pacers certainly didn't cover themselves in glory in that game! Of course the 2 test specialists were discarded but we still didn't fix our pace problem, entirely!

Check out the link below for numbers since 1st April 2017 - sorted by economy rate, Bhuvi is 4th best, only behind Bumrah, Rabada and Amir.  Not in the top 20?  Bhuvi is pretty much an automatic starter for any ODI team in the planet, especially as 2nd pacer.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?ballsmin1=30;ballsval1=balls;bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin3=15;qualval3=matches;spanmin1=01+apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

But you know, there are those who don't like his speedgun numbers, his friendly 'non intimidating' face, or just armchair wannabes who want to see new players for their "entertainment" facts be damned.   

Edited January 17, 2019 by sandeep

[zen]

45 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Are you laughing at your own "jocks" about how 20 months suddenly turns into 12 months to suit your biased agenda?  why didn't you post the test statistics of 20 months?  I think I know why.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin1=3;qualval1=wickets;spanmin2=01+apr+2017;spanval2=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

common sense dictates that like what you claim if he is constantly improving his latest numbers should be better (last 12 months should be better than last 20 months)  .... if you want to go back random 20 months to make Bhuvi look better for e.g., and then, unlike your claim, it shows that Bhuvi is not an improved bowler if his last 12 months numbers don't support that   .... By posting the above (Bhuvi appear better for last 20 months vs 12 months), you only discredited your line of argument .... also we had discussed ODIs, why are you now into tests now?

 

I have taken the stats since Jan 1 2018, last 12 months, not some random dates to fit a player .... Even in tests, now if we go back to 1 Jan 2017 (which is not an arbitrary date) 

 

iew overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2017

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA)

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 5

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 5 of 5

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Mohammed Shami	3	6	88.3	20	283	16	5/28	6/74	17.68	3.19	33.1	1	0
JJ Bumrah	2	4	70.1	7	223	11	5/54	7/111	20.27	3.17	38.2	1	0
B Kumar	5	10	153.3	49	434	21	4/8	8/96	20.66	2.82	43.8	0	0
I Sharma	2	4	63.0	13	173	6	2/31	3/64	28.83	2.74	63.0	0	0

 

 

In tests, Bhuvi was mostly played in conditions that favored him. Despite that there are bowlers who did better (Shami who for e.g. was brought in by the other poster) .... Do the players you support a favor, don't support them  (unless vs many Pak, BD, etc., posters where you may have a better chance with your points) 

 

Since you have decided to follow up on the other poster's arguments, you have to accept the stats and move on 

Edited January 17, 2019 by zen

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

common sense dictates

Common sense would dictate that you should not be drawing foolish conclusions from sample sets of a handful of games.   Keep re-posting the same foolish numbers Baghdad Bob, its only digging a deeper hole for you.  

 

37 ODIs - 44 wickets at an ER of around 5 runs.  Those numbers describe consistency and reliability.  Any captain in cricket would love to be able to throw the ball at such a new ball and death bowler - makes his job and the team's job that much easier.  

 

Historically, we've only ever had one decent bowler at a time, which meant that teams could play the one good bowler safely, while dining out on the freebies at the other end.  Indian team is lucky to have Bumrah and Bhuvi at the same time, and here we have armchair fiction writers who try to manufacture nonsense from uselessly small statistical samples.  

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by sandeep

[zen]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Common sense would dictate that you should not be drawing foolish conclusions from sample sets of a handful of games.   Keep re-posting the same foolish numbers Baghdad Bob, its only digging a deeper hole for you.  

 

37 ODIs - 44 wickets at an ER of around 5 runs.  Those numbers describe consistency and reliability.  Any captain in cricket would love to be able to throw the ball at such a new ball and death bowler - makes his job and the team's job that much easier.  

 

Historically, we've only ever had one decent bowler at a time, which meant that teams could play the one good bowler safely, while dining out on the freebies at the other end.  Indian team is lucky to have Bumrah and Bhuvi at the same time, and here we have armchair fiction writers who try to manufacture nonsense from uselessly small statistical samples.  

 

Below is the last accepted position, which shows that he is not an improved bowler (unless improvement implies becoming an even slower trundler)   

 

Accept the stats and move on

 

  .... the discussion is past the point of all that (the context or whatever bedtime stories you tell yourself have been considered) 

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA)

Bowling position between 1 and 2

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (reverse)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
B Kumar	16	16	121.0	6	648	17	4/45	38.11	5.35	42.7	1	0
KK Ahmed	2	2	18.0	0	103	3	3/48	34.33	5.72	36.0	0	0
Mohammed Shami	1	1	10.0	0	58	3	3/58	19.33	5.80	20.0	0	0
JJ Bumrah	12	12	92.5	8	342	20	4/35	17.10	3.68	27.8	1	0

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA)

Bowling position between 1 and 3

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (reverse)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
B Kumar	16	16	121.0	6	648	17	4/45	38.11	5.35	42.7	1	0
Mohammed Shami	2	2	20.0	0	104	3	3/58	34.66	5.20	40.0	0	0
KK Ahmed	5	5	40.0	1	210	9	3/13	23.33	5.25	26.6	0	0
JJ Bumrah	12	12	92.5	8	342	20	4/35	17.10	3.68	27.8	1	0

 

For such comical support, I hope he does well in at least a few games here and there 

[sandeep]

Bhuvi is only bested by Rabada and Bumrah in ODIs since April 2017 - Amir is on this list but he averages 45.  That is the "Current Position".  Read it and enlighten yourself.  Or don't.  Its up to you.

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by sandeep

[R!TTER]

33 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Check out the link below for numbers since 1st April 2017 - sorted by economy rate, Bhuvi is 4th best, only behind Bumrah, Rabada and Amir.  Not in the top 20?  Bhuvi is pretty much an automatic starter for any ODI team in the planet, especially as 2nd pacer.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?ballsmin1=30;ballsval1=balls;bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin3=15;qualval3=matches;spanmin1=01+apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

But you know, there are those who don't like his speedgun numbers, his friendly 'non intimidating' face, or just armchair wannabes who want to see new players for their "entertainment" facts be damned.   

Let's break that down -

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 apr 2017

Balls bowled greater than or equal to 30

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 13 of 13

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
Kuldeep Yadav (INDIA)	17	17	159.0	3	823	37	6/25	22.24	5.17	25.7	2	1
A Dananjaya (SL)	12	12	102.1	1	527	23	6/29	22.91	5.15	26.6	1	1
CR Woakes (ENG)	10	10	88.0	5	436	19	4/38	22.94	4.95	27.7	1	0
JJ Bumrah (INDIA)	17	17	137.1	10	621	24	3/47	25.87	4.52	34.2	0	0
LE Plunkett (ENG)	10	10	83.4	1	493	19	4/53	25.94	5.89	26.4	2	0
YS Chahal (INDIA)	18	18	159.1	3	783	30	5/22	26.10	4.91	31.8	1	1
AU Rashid (ENG)	20	20	192.0	2	1046	37	4/41	28.27	5.44	31.1	2	0
MM Ali (ENG)	18	18	150.4	3	753	26	4/46	28.96	4.99	34.7	1	0
TA Boult (NZ)	13	13	117.2	5	692	23	5/17	30.08	5.89	30.6	0	1
B Kumar (INDIA)	18	18	148.4	8	779	24	4/45	32.45	5.23	37.1	1	0
TG Southee (NZ)	13	13	110.1	7	568	13	3/22	43.69	5.15	50.8	0	0
MA Wood (ENG)	16	16	136.0	6	709	16	4/33	44.31	5.21	51.0	1	0
HH Pandya (INDIA)	17	17	134.3	0	759	13	2/30	58.38	5.64	62.0	0	0

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 apr 2017

Balls bowled greater than or equal to 30

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by economy rate (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 13 of 13

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5
JJ Bumrah (INDIA)	17	17	137.1	10	621	24	3/47	25.87	4.52	34.2	0	0
YS Chahal (INDIA)	18	18	159.1	3	783	30	5/22	26.10	4.91	31.8	1	1
CR Woakes (ENG)	10	10	88.0	5	436	19	4/38	22.94	4.95	27.7	1	0
MM Ali (ENG)	18	18	150.4	3	753	26	4/46	28.96	4.99	34.7	1	0
TG Southee (NZ)	13	13	110.1	7	568	13	3/22	43.69	5.15	50.8	0	0
A Dananjaya (SL)	12	12	102.1	1	527	23	6/29	22.91	5.15	26.6	1	1
Kuldeep Yadav (INDIA)	17	17	159.0	3	823	37	6/25	22.24	5.17	25.7	2	1
MA Wood (ENG)	16	16	136.0	6	709	16	4/33	44.31	5.21	51.0	1	0
B Kumar (INDIA)	18	18	148.4	8	779	24	4/45	32.45	5.23	37.1	1	0
AU Rashid (ENG)	20	20	192.0	2	1046	37	4/41	28.27	5.44	31.1	2	0
HH Pandya (INDIA)	17	17	134.3	0	759	13	2/30	58.38	5.64	62.0	0	0
LE Plunkett (ENG)	10	10	83.4	1	493	19	4/53	25.94	5.89	26.4	2	0
TA Boult (NZ)	13	13	117.2	5	692	23	5/17	30.08	5.89	30.6	0	1

 

 

Can you explain in which world is that avg or economy acceptable? It's just like Dhongi fifties, once in a blue moon but never in pressure situations, especially against top oppositions &/or bowlers.

Edited January 17, 2019 by R!TTER

[zen]

@sandeep argument is that Bhuvi is an improved bowler in the last 20 months (which implies that he only looks good if we take his stats from the date he chose) .... if we take last 12 months or from Jan 1st 2018 for e.g., which falls within the last 20 months, it is not acceptable since it would show that he has not improved .... for an improving bowler last 12 months should be better than last 20 months .... anyways, that is how it goes with fanboys

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

an you explain in which world is that avg or economy acceptable? It's just like Dhongi fifties, once in a blue moon but never in pressure situations, especially against top oppositions &/or bowlers.

So an econ rate of 5.23 is not acceptable?  Extrapolated to 50 overs that is what, 260?  In the age where 320 is par?  From the guy that regularly bowls in the power-play and death?  Again, which bowler would you trust to do this job?  

 

Mind you, I'm not saying Bhuvi's returns here are the best they can be - Bumrah clearly is a goddam stud - but the point is that Bhuvi's numbers are quite reasonable in current batsman friendly ODI context.  And more importantly, we have cycled through a handful of alternatives in the Indian team who have demonstrated that they would do far, far worse than Bhuvi if thrust into that role.  

 

Btw, In the stats you posted, I see that Bhuvi has significantly better ER than Trent Boult and Plunkett - while his average is quite comparable to Boult's.   And Boult is NZ's lead pacer.  

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

@sandeep argument is that Bhuvi is an improved bowler in the last 20 months (which implies that he only looks good if we take his stats from the date he chose) .... if we take last 12 months or from Jan 1st 2018 for e.g., which falls within the last 20 months, it is not acceptable since it would show that he has not improved .... for an improving bowler last 12 months should be better than last 20 months .... anyways, that is how it goes with fanboys

Bhuvi's been dealing with a chronic back-issue that cropped up smack dab in the middle of the last 12 months, which has had a clear impact on his performances.  His bowling in the recent home ODI series was pedestrian no doubt.  That is why, you need to take statistics in their proper context.  FFS we just had 2 games where we saw Shami, Khaleel and Siraj bowl - Bhuvi is by far the most dependable of this lot with the new ball and at the death.  

 

But why bother with facts and logic, when agenda ooncha rahe hamara.

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Let's break that down -

 

 

 

Can you explain in which world is that avg or economy acceptable? It's just like Dhongi fifties, once in a blue moon but never in pressure situations, especially against top oppositions &/or bowlers.

Btw, I took your link and filtered for pace bowlers - Woakes is the only guy who betters Bhuvi in your sample.  Mark Wood and Tim Southee have slightly  better economy rate, but they are averaging 45 runs per wicket.  This is the data that you "broke down".  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?ballsmin1=30;ballsval1=balls;bowling_pacespin=1;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=7;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=01+apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling