Indian Air Force lay exposed

[beetle]

Just now, surajmal said:

Rehn de Aunty. You clearly don't understand how important a domestic military industrial complex is for the larger science/engineering setup of a 3rd world country. Those incharge for the decision making should be lined up and shot.

Uncleji,It is important but it can't happen the way HAL functions. They need to up their expectations from themselves before they can fulfil others expectations. 

 

Batein badi badi ...but haven't done anything worth .

 

You think the forces don't want quality indeginous arms? Why would they not ?

Bees(20) ka unees (19) accept kar sakte hain but bees ka solah kaise accept karein ...woh bhi ro dho ke ....dheere dheere unki speed par.

 

Quality and quality par kitna compromise karein woh !

 

[Clarke]

Everyone from PM to chaprasi has read this in the newspaper. Defense procurement is a royal pain in India, more so after bofors scam happened. We finally signed US artillery guns after a gap of more than 3 decades. 

 

More rafales should do the job, maybe some made here. I don't like the idea of yet another fighter in the inventory, a logisitical bummer.

[surajmal]

5 minutes ago, beetle said:

Uncleji,It is important but it can't happen the way HAL functions. They need to up their expectations from themselves before they can fulfil others expectations. 

 

Batein badi badi ...but haven't done anything worth .

 

You think the forces don't want quality indeginous arms? Why would they not ?

Bees(20) ka unees (19) accept kar sakte hain but bees ka solah kaise accept karein ...woh bhi ro dho ke ....dheere dheere unki speed par.

 

Quality and quality par kitna compromise karein woh !

 

If IAF ever had interest in cooperating let alone being a partner, HAL could have been delivering quality products by now. In Umrika, every new tender floated out has serving officers attached to it from start to finish. Cuz they give a damn. 

HAL, DRDO have gotten step brotherly treatment at best. I mean, IAF didn't care enough to finalize design requirement for LCA until 2004. Tells you all you need to know. 

[Muloghonto]

21 minutes ago, surajmal said:

HAL churns out 8-10 because they want to recoup the initial investment - which for them is # of man hours they can stretch out of the line. Thats how public sectors companies function. 10 ACs/year or 30 ACs/yr, its a matter of scaling up. 

I am not understanding. Recouping their initial investment would work in terms of price-tag, no ?

Like, if HAL has the technical know-how and industrial capacity to open up 2 more production line and bump that number up to 30, why wouldn't they ? Especially if its the difference in winning or losing a contract ?

You wont recover your prices ever if you sink 10 billion in a R&D project but can only make 10 items per year and take 30 years to pay off your R&D cost - not in military !

[surajmal]

9 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Everyone from PM to chaprasi has read this in the newspaper. Defense procurement is a royal pain in India, more so after bofors scam happened. We finally signed US artillery guns after a gap of more than 3 decades. 

 

More rafales should do the job, maybe some made here. I don't like the idea of yet another fighter in the inventory, a logisitical bummer.

All the more reason to invest in domestic. But no kickbacks there. And isn't that the main issue. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by surajmal

[surajmal]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not understanding. Recouping their initial investment would work in terms of price-tag, no ?

Like, if HAL has the technical know-how and industrial capacity to open up 2 more production line and bump that number up to 30, why wouldn't they ? Especially if its the difference in winning or losing a contract ?

You wont recover your prices ever if you sink 10 billion in a R&D project but can only make 10 items per year and take 30 years to pay off your R&D cost - not in military !

HAL execs don't take home any bonuses. Their salaries are measly. Their only demand is man hours they can "bill" the govt. If they up their production rate to 30, they may hire more workers >>> order gets completed faster >>> line shuts down>>> workers are then sitting on their ass. But since its a govt job, salaries still need to be paid. But no work is being done. It fecks up their budget and future outlays.     

Hence the demand for larger order. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by surajmal

[Muloghonto]

17 minutes ago, surajmal said:

If IAF ever had interest in cooperating let alone being a partner, HAL could have been delivering quality products by now. In Umrika, every new tender floated out has serving officers attached to it from start to finish. Cuz they give a damn. 

HAL, DRDO have gotten step brotherly treatment at best. I mean, IAF didn't care enough to finalize design requirement for LCA until 2004. Tells you all you need to know. 

I've been following the LCA debacle for 10 years now. HAL has a legitimate gripe with IAF changing specs on them willy-nilly. You cannot develop an aircraft for 3-4 years, have test flight only for your customer go to ' we want it with more thrust now, we want it with more wing-loading'. 

However, at the same time, it seems that current IAF's main concern with HAL is its production rate. LCA has been accepted. IAF wants to order more and has promised 110 orders or so. But HAL still only has 1 production line open, churning out 8-10 per year. In 10 years, LCA will no longer be cutting edge, it will be middle of the pack. So how do we get HAL to churn out 30 per year and fulfill the quota in 3-4 years ??

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, surajmal said:

HAL execs don't take home any bonuses. Their salaries are measly. Their only demand is man hours they can "bill" the govt. If they up their production rate to 30, they may hire more workers >>> order gets completed faster >>> line shuts down>>> workers are then sitting on their ass. But since its a govt job, salaries still need to be paid. But no work is being done. It fecks up their budget and future outlays.     

Hence the demand for larger order. 

Ok. Understood. So then it seems like HAL is good for only orders we can be content with trickling in at 8-10 aircrafts per year. Like for eg, give them the An-32 replacement order ? We can afford to keep the An-32 for another 20 years, we have 100 of them and therefore, we can afford the replacement showing up over the next 10 years. 

But for 'ZOMG WE NEED 200 FIGHTERS YESTERDAY', it seems HAL is simply not set up to handle such a large order in such a short period of time. Unless we trust HAL to become a private corp, derive profit/bonuses and incentivise their production lines, but i wonder if Indian security systems are robust and trustworthy enough to make HAL a private entity and not sell its secrets. 

[surajmal]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Ok. Understood. So then it seems like HAL is good for only orders we can be content with trickling in at 8-10 aircrafts per year. Like for eg, give them the An-32 replacement order ? We can afford to keep the An-32 for another 20 years, we have 100 of them and therefore, we can afford the replacement showing up over the next 10 years. 

But for 'ZOMG WE NEED 200 FIGHTERS YESTERDAY', it seems HAL is simply not set up to handle such a large order in such a short period of time. Unless we trust HAL to become a private corp, derive profit/bonuses and incentivise their production lines, but i wonder if Indian security systems are robust and trustworthy enough to make HAL a private entity and not sell its secrets. 

Precisely, HAL isn't going to let go of its knowhow easily to the private sector. And Banias won't invest in R&D on their own.  

Thats why there are a lot of offset contracts attached to Rafale deal so that Govt can kickstart some sort of private sector participation. But Liberandus are screaming corruption. And so the deal is stuck. 

Trust and Secrecy are Govt's problem. 

 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Precisely, HAL isn't going to let go of its knowhow easily to the private sector. And Banias won't invest in R&D on their own.  

Thats why there are a lot of offset contracts attached to Rafale deal so that Govt can kickstart some sort of private sector participation. But Liberandus are screaming corruption. And so the deal is stuck. 

Trust and Secrecy are Govt's problem. 

 

Why can't we do what USA does with Boeing, LM, etc ? where they go 'hey bro, we need 200 new jets in 2030, they need to be x,y,z specs, you have till 2025 to R&D and show us tech demonstrators' ? Is it because US orders are actually not 100-200 but 2000-3000 or even more if multiple NATO nations are involved and so it becomes lucrative for Yankee baniyaas to invest in R&D ? 

[surajmal]

Boieng/LM/P&W have hands in several cookie jars - civilian/military/space. No comparison. Scale wise or knowhow. 

Thats why it was important for HAL to seperate Kaveri from LCA (something that easily set them 7-10 yrs back). Learn to crawl before you can walk.  

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by surajmal

[maniac]

Just an ignorant question, would a more advanced aircraft made a difference here?

 

Clearly the wing commander was caught up in then pursuit of enemy aircraft and obviously there is no question of his skill, given his smooth landing to escape the crash

 

Obviously if we are questioning redtape, corruption in stocking up advanced equipment thats a different debate and looks like that’s were this debate has headed.

 

So far don’t see how the IAF has failed in terms of war fare. Didn’t we just successfully breach and get back right under the enemies nose?

 

If discussion has to do with equipment than Sure it is applicable to all defense forces and how the govt. or it’s implementation of policies  have screwed them over despite a more than adequate budget

Edited February 28, 2019 by maniac

[Clarke]

13 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Why can't we do what USA does with Boeing, LM, etc ? where they go 'hey bro, we need 200 new jets in 2030, they need to be x,y,z specs, you have till 2025 to R&D and show us tech demonstrators' ? Is it because US orders are actually not 100-200 but 2000-3000 or even more if multiple NATO nations are involved and so it becomes lucrative for Yankee baniyaas to invest in R&D ? 

The right way initially would be a paid demonstration. It happens all the time at corporate level, a paid proof of concept project. The trouble is politics, opposition will classify it as bribes for a semi/non functional plane and it will only worsen the environment.

[putrevus]

You can't keep on buying this stuff from other countries, you need local companies to start making them.HAL is only entity which is capable of making aircrafts now, and they are outdated and slow.

 

You need to privatize aircraft manufacturing and give incentives to local companies.US became a global power based on their fleet during world war II.

 

IAF is so outdated, it is a joke.

 

[Turning_track]

Today again a MIG 21 crashed in Bikaner, luckily pilot ejected from the plane and reported safe. 

I really don't understand such stubbornness from Indian Air Force. A few days back the Air Force Chief said in Coimbatore that if they have Mig 21 in their inventory then they would definitely use it. But I really want to know at what cost?

There has been so much opposition in last few years regarding Mig 21, but still our pilots use these flying coffins. How much more unfortunate events we need to witness in the future?

[dial_100]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 11:18 PM, surajmal said:

Precisely, HAL isn't going to let go of its knowhow easily to the private sector. And Banias won't invest in R&D on their own.  

Thats why there are a lot of offset contracts attached to Rafale deal so that Govt can kickstart some sort of private sector participation. But Liberandus are screaming corruption. And so the deal is stuck. 

Trust and Secrecy are Govt's problem. 

Right. You need to build the whole echo system so that we could fulfill all the requirements locally. Obviously if they do it for 5-10 years then a natural next step would be more R&D in each areas and we become an industry. 

 

The issue is whats the future of war aircrafts. Do we know if they will be usefully 20-30 years from now?

[FischerTal]

12 Mirage 2000s (our primary nuclear vehicle) went in 70 km deep into Pakistani airspace, allegedly to just knock down trees that the Pakistanis won't let phoren, independent media have a look at. Due to such unfavorable events, Islamic republic of NOTAM has taken birth and Al-Bakis continue to suffer economic loss even though their super powerful F-16s took down a mig21, su-30 MKI and an Israeli pilot if you were to believe some Pakistani defence analysts.

 

the IAF is fine. it always has been. the problem is the lack of indigenization that worries me the most. wasting close to 30 billion dollars a year on importing defence equipment takes a toll on your economy but more importantly , it restricts the scope of implementing your national security objectives  effectively.

 

As far as Al-Bakis are concerned, the world has seen their masterful use of advanced technology, whether it be Patton tanks in 1971 or F-16s in 2019. PVC Abdul Hamid is laughing in his grave when he sees indians worried that Al-Bakis may have acquired more advanced equipments than India. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by FischerTal

[FischerTal]

On 2/28/2019 at 12:38 AM, maniac said:

Just an ignorant question, would a more advanced aircraft made a difference here?

 

Clearly the wing commander was caught up in then pursuit of enemy aircraft and obviously there is no question of his skill, given his smooth landing to escape the crash

 

Obviously if we are questioning redtape, corruption in stocking up advanced equipment thats a different debate and looks like that’s were this debate has headed.

 

So far don’t see how the IAF has failed in terms of war fare. Didn’t we just successfully breach and get back right under the enemies nose?

 

If discussion has to do with equipment than Sure it is applicable to all defense forces and how the govt. or it’s implementation of policies  have screwed them over despite a more than adequate budget

he broke the rules of engagement that were followed by his fellow pilots. he saw the scope for an F-16 kill after he locked on to it, completed his objective, but completed the enemy's objective in the process as well. it happens.  get over it. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by FischerTal

[Muloghonto]

On 2/28/2019 at 7:01 AM, putrevus said:

You can't keep on buying this stuff from other countries, you need local companies to start making them.HAL is only entity which is capable of making aircrafts now, and they are outdated and slow.

 

You need to privatize aircraft manufacturing and give incentives to local companies.US became a global power based on their fleet during world war II.

 

IAF is so outdated, it is a joke.

 

US is a global power not just because of WWII but because they control close to 60% of the ENTIRE world's airline industry manufacturing.....via Boeing. That is a huge advantage. Whenever your military industrial complex has a production interface with the civillian industrial complex, you enter a zone of 'scale of economies' in both production and R&D. Its no surprise either that for the last 20-30 years, the Germans make the 2nd best tanks in the world......because a tank is ultimately an automobile and german automobile industry is huge, so they can throw excess millions or billions at R&D and use some ancillary benefits to civillian sector to recover R&D costs. 

 

India does not have this. China does not have this either but they have a humongous industrial complex for heavy industry parts, which gives them a leg-up over India in terms of producing high quality steel etc for jet engines etc.