Shami's impact in Indian condition is phenomenal

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

There is no fan psyche issue involved here as Siraj is not a darling of the fans ... and his inclusion won't bring that many extra people to watch the game.  

 

I'm not the one who brought "fan psyche" into the discussion.  You did.  

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Ishant has not been good on slow surfaces and I never want him to play in India if there are other people available. This is because his bowling style is not suited for slow surfaces.

 

Siraj on the other hand, is a stump directing skiddy bowler with better chance to do well in India.

 

Can Ishant do well in an odd test here or a green top here ?  Surely he can. But a Saini or a Siraj have better chances of being good long term options as pacers operating in India ... and we need to develop them.

I largely agree with this - only disagreement is on the timing of things.   I think Shami, Yadav and Ishant earned their right to play this test match.  If this was a 3 test series, I could see Siraj playing the 3rd after India were inevitably 2-0 up.  Maybe we still get to see him if one of our 3 pacers ends up needing to miss the pink ball game.  But barring a genuine injury problem, I doubt they'll want to miss the 1st pink ball test ever in India.  

 

 

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Please check Ishant's test record in India in the last 3 years.

 

SR of 65 and average of 31.

 

Bowling on slower surfaces is very different from bowling on faster surfaces.  

 

Different style pacers are needed.

Let us assume for a while Saini/Siraj played in this test and series. They do extremely well, what will happen to Ishant then. If Kohli was rested for this test series and Gill scores a double hundred like what Karun Nair did, when Rahane was out. What should selectors do?

[express bowling]

45 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I'm not the one who brought "fan psyche" into the discussion.  You did.  

 

I surely did. 

 

Regarding the need to include Gill in tests in the near future.

 

And regarding choosing Siraj over Shardul in that test vs WI in 2018, just after Siraj took 40 wickets from 5 Unofficial tests for India-A and was " hot property " at that time.

 

(   And both the above choices have or had cricketing logic too  )

 

But including Siraj over Ishant in late 2019 in a test in India is not an example of that.  

 

This decision is based on Siraj's bowling style which is potentially better for tests in India  ... and the need to create bench strength.

 

 

Quote

I largely agree with this - only disagreement is on the timing of things.   I think Shami, Yadav and Ishant earned their right to play this test match.  If this was a 3 test series, I could see Siraj playing the 3rd after India were inevitably 2-0 up.  Maybe we still get to see him if one of our 3 pacers ends up needing to miss the pink ball game.  But barring a genuine injury problem, I doubt they'll want to miss the 1st pink ball test ever in India.  

 

 

Ishant playing in the pink ball test makes a lot more cricketing sense ... as the pink ball moves a lot and Ishant 2.0 does well when this happens.

 

I was talking about this test where it was expected that seamers will get movement in the first session of day one ... and pitch may become flatter as the game progresses.

Edited November 14, 2019 by express bowling

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Let us assume for a while Saini/Siraj played in this test and series. They do extremely well, what will happen to Ishant then.

 

Ishant is the 3rd choice pacer ( after Bumrah and Shami )  while playing tests outside Asia in 2019.   He can be replaced there only if an exceptional pacer comes along.

 

If Saini or Siraj does well in a test in India then they keep on playing in India till the time Bumrah returns. And they become viable backups for tests outside Asia if there is some injury issue to one if the 3 front line quicks.

 

Quote

If Kohli was rested for this test series and Gill scores a double hundred like what Karun Nair did, when Rahane was out. What should selectors do?

 

Kohli will never rest in a test match.

 

Only Kohli and Pujara have been consistent performers for a long time in this test batting line-up. Every one else is expendable if they are not performing for some time.

 

Gill can come in only if one of Rohit, Rahane or Mayank stop performing for some time. And, in that case, if he scores a double hundred then he obviously stays on.

Edited November 14, 2019 by express bowling

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

You cannot take such a 'use and throw' attitude to your senior pros. 

 

 

How many times have Bhuvi been dropped from a test played on a flat surface, after taking wickets on a green top. ?

 

Don't we drop Ashwin in tests outside Asia after taking a fifer in a test in Asia ?

 

Umesh Yadav was dropped after taking 10 wickets in a test vs the WI.

 

And what about Kuldeep Yadav. ?  He may not be a senior yet but he is yet to play a test after taking a fifer in a test in Australia.

 

It happens all the time, especially with bowlers. Why is Ishant so special ?

Edited November 14, 2019 by express bowling

[sandeep]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This decision is based on Siraj's bowling style which is potentially better for tests in India  ... and the need to create bench strength.

 

I was talking about this test where it was expected that seamers will get movement in the first session of day one ... and pitch may become flatter as the game progresses.

I believe you know who is captaining India, and what his philosophies on seniority and selection are.

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

How many times have Bhuvi been dropped from a test played on a flat surface, after taking wickets on a green top. ?

 

Don't we drop Ashwin in tests outside Asia after taking a fifer in a test in Asia ?

 

Umesh Yadav was dropped after taking 10 wickets in a test vs the WI.

 

And what about Kuldeep Yadav. ?  He may not be a senior yet but he is yet to play a test after taking a fifer in a test in Australia.

 

It happens all the time, especially with bowlers. Why is Ishant so special ?

Let's leave Bhuvi aside.  Ash has only been dropped when we are either taking only one spinner in, or he's unfit.  Yadav is 3rd choice seamer and only in contention after Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, (Bhuvi, if green track).   Kuldeep is injured, and again, is 3rd choice spinner at home, and more of a horses for courses pick, depending on opposition.  

 

I'm not fixating on Ishant, you are.  All 3 pacers playing this game deserved to be playing ahead of a Siraj.  That is my assertion, and I stand by that.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I believe you know who is captaining India, and what his philosophies on seniority and selection are.

 

Didn't he talk about creating bench strength in the pace department  !

 

And the need to develop 3 more pacers who combine pace, intensity and accuracy like Bumrah, Shami and Ishant. !

 

How will he achieve this unless he tries new fast bowlers against weak teams. !

 

 

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Let's leave Bhuvi aside.  Ash has only been dropped when we are either taking only one spinner in, or he's unfit.  Yadav is 3rd choice seamer and only in contention after Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, (Bhuvi, if green track).   Kuldeep is injured, and again, is 3rd choice spinner at home, and more of a horses for courses pick, depending on opposition.  

 

Ishant was dropped for Umesh in the last test ... and has been a horses for courses pick too. 

 

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I'm not fixating on Ishant, you are.

 

How  ?

 

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

  All 3 pacers playing this game deserved to be playing ahead of a Siraj.  That is my assertion, and I stand by that.

 

Different people will have different opinions. That's fine.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Didn't he talk about creating bench strength in the pace department  !

 

And the need to develop 3 more pacers who combine pace, intensity and accuracy like Bumrah, Shami and Ishant. !

 

How will he achieve this unless he tries new fast bowlers against weak teams. !

 

 

IMO bench strength can also be developed by playing second choice players in India A and local zonal matches and as you correctly pointed out giving chances when opportunity arises like it did in Hyd vs WI.

 

 

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, putrevus said:

IMO bench strength can also be developed by playing second choice players in India A and local zonal matches and as you correctly pointed out giving chances when opportunity arises like it did in Hyd vs WI.

 

 

Hyderabad was Siraj's home ground - it was an ideal moment for a debut.  Bowlers are well acquainted and used to bowling the 'right' lengths for their home ground...

[rtmohanlal]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

Other to satisfy the armchair expert and fan's "new guy" itch, what exactly is the crying need to push for Gill in test cricket?  

as i  said , the team should always strive for 'making it better as a whole' in the long term run. Do you believe that this team is perfect ? No, I don't. If they were , they wouldn't have lost to SAF & so miserably to ENG both abroad. On both occasions, experienced players like Vijay,Rohit, Dhawan,Pujara & Rahane proved to be far off from what was required.Even now we don't have  'batsmen  with at least very good' track record in ENG  including Kohli.

And Mayank, Pant & Vihari out performed in AUS or WI  experienced  players like  Kohli & Rahane , emphatically proving that  the cupboard of reserve talent is worth experimenting unlike that of atleast a few other countries.Bhuvi also is a bowler who has played 21 tests and average a very good 26 as of now and hence deserves his chances so that he remains in the 'scheme  of things ' for tougher abroad challenges..

 

this  BAN  series was a golden oppertunity for all these things with players like Tamim,Shakib,Mustafizur etc etc absent from their team reducing them to a minnow.

[rtmohanlal]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Ishant has not done well in India.  Even Ishant 2.0 of the last 3 years has not done well in India because he lacks the skid off the surface or consistent pace in the air needed on slower surfaces. And neither is he a master of reverse swing bowling or stump directed bowling 

 

So he does not deserve better while playing in India.

 

(  Ishant 2.0 deserves a lot in tests away from home, especially on quicker surfaces )

Spot on. i too back this. Bhuvi/Siraj/ any other promising rookie should have been played instead of Ishant.

[Rightarmfast]

I would just want to add that it isnt about taking someone's place or not. It is just about grooming someone deserving. The opponent is Bangladesh, and the venue is India. Lets not be romantic fools and lets not be humble. India could have afforded to have 3 rookie fast bowlers and still would win. Do we doubt it? I dont

We could have tested 2 new fast bowlers as a back up and also just to tell them that they are in the scheme of things. These youngsters have been knocking at the door for long now. And hell, they deserve their chance. or atleast someone telling them that they are not forgotten. 

[express bowling]

49 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I would just want to add that it isnt about taking someone's place or not. It is just about grooming someone deserving. The opponent is Bangladesh, and the venue is India. Lets not be romantic fools and lets not be humble. India could have afforded to have 3 rookie fast bowlers and still would win. Do we doubt it? I dont

We could have tested 2 new fast bowlers as a back up and also just to tell them that they are in the scheme of things. These youngsters have been knocking at the door for long now. And hell, they deserve their chance. or atleast someone telling them that they are not forgotten. 

 

If we don't try rookie fast bowlers against Afghanistan or Bangladesh or the WI or SL while playing at home, where will we try them. !!

 

In the near future, we may face a situation where we want to play 3 quick bowlers in a test in SENA but only 2 established pacers are available due to niggle to the others.

 

And then we will be forced to include an uncapped rookie pacer in a crucial test.

 

We need to plan for the future.

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Spot on. i too back this. Bhuvi/Siraj/ any other promising rookie should have been played instead of Ishant.

Bhuvi is injured so couldn't play.

[putrevus]

17 hours ago, sandeep said:

Hyderabad was Siraj's home ground - it was an ideal moment for a debut.  Bowlers are well acquainted and used to bowling the 'right' lengths for their home ground...

Not playing him in that test was a big mistake.

[sandeep]

22 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Not playing him in that test was a big mistake.

Seriously stupid.  

[rtmohanlal]

10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Bhuvi is injured so couldn't play.

Is Pandya also injured or rested? I think these are the sort of  matches where the experienced players like Rahane, Pujara,Rohit etc etc  who are a bit off from adequate need to be rested  and players like Pant,Hardik, Vihari etc etc need to be given further chances.For instance , in this on going series  players like   Rahane, Pujara,Rohit would have lost nothing if they played 1 test each only there by  keeping their touch  intact.At the same time those rookies would have gained valuable experience too if they were played in those resultant free slots..

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Is Pandya also injured or rested? I think these are the sort of  matches where the experienced players like Rahane, Pujara,Rohit etc etc  who are a bit off from adequate need to be rested  and players like Pant,Hardik, Vihari etc etc need to be given further chances.For instance , in this on going series  players like   Rahane, Pujara,Rohit would have lost nothing if they played 1 test each only there by  keeping their touch  intact.At the same time those rookies would have gained valuable experience too if they were played in those resultant free slots..

Are you living in a cave? Everyone knows Pandya underwent a back surgery before SA test series.