Dada 2004 team vs Kohli 2019 Team in test , who ll win in Indian conditions ?

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Stan AF said:

People overhyping the present team. Lest not forget that this is the same team which lost 7 test matches to subpar SENA teams last year.

No it is not over hyping. That 2008 team lost to Ajanta Mendis by looking clueless. They made Warnpura into BradmanThey had hard time beating almost a useless NZ team in 2009.

That 2008 team would not even have competed in those SA and Eng tests. They never won more than one test in any tour nor did they have the ability to take 20 wickets every time.

 

On a pitch like Indore this team will steam roll that team.Gambhir and Sehwag were weak on pitches condusive to fast bowlers.76 all out in 2008 against SA .

 

[Gollum]

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Kohli’s team batsmen got bundled out vs Moeen Ali and Lyon and you think they can handle Kumble and Bhajji in his prime?

Lyon>Bhajji

Moeen...diddly-squat in India with the ball.

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Also good lucking dropping catches of Sachin,Dravid and Sehwag and on the other hand Dravid,VVS and Sehwag will grab every chance along the way.

Dravid and Laxman dropped their fair share of catches, not nearly as bad as this team but hey 2004 had DK as keeper, this side has GOAT Saha. Current bowling unit is used to creating 26 chances every match, that team would struggle to pick 20 wickets consistently at home. 

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Kumble is not a conventional leg spinner. He has run through better line ups than the current Indian line up in home conditions and you think this team will handle Kumble like a piece of cake lol. Kumble is hands down the most difficult bowler to face ever in Indian conditions current team included and 2004 Bhajji was as good if not better than Ashwin and Jadeja in home conditions.

Kumble deadly on day 5, otherwise inferior to Ash-Jaddu. Bhajji was a serial chucker FGS, tell me how he would fare sans doosra. 

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Also Indias other achillies heel is swing bowling and both Zak and Pathan are good with the new ball and even better in SC conditions.

In India? Zak was mediocre in 2004, Pathan wasn't tougher than any of the RSA quicks we saw last series. 

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The 2004 team has all the bowling to exploit all weaknesses that the current team has that is swing and spin. 

LOL

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Kohli’s team can be way better competitive than the 2004 team overseas because of our bowling but in SC conditions that team will walk all over the current lot 

I'd argue conversely, Dada's team has a better chance overseas. In SC it will be a slaughter...only on rank tuners aka lottery pitches that 2004 team is the favorite courtesy exceptional ability against spin and because that narrows the gap in bowling ability. 

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Also the most important aspect is the fielding especially slip catching. The fab 5 can hurt you bad if they get additional lives.

2004 Sachin tennis elbow version?

2004 Gambhir the rookie?

2004 Ganguly the liability?

What Fab 5 that year?

Only Dravid was at the peak of his powers, Sehwag brilliant but IMO his peak version was in 2008-10, Lax was good but he become clutch only in late 2000s. Aussies made that batting unit cry for mercy, this Indian unit is at a higher level in these conditions.

Boss we all saw that famed batting unit collapse against nothing bowlers at home. 

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Forget Kumble and Bhajji, Sachin and Sehwag the bowlers will trouble this batting like up

Sachin/Sehwag will do something where Herath, Maharaj, Santner, Rashid, Moeen, Shakib, Afghans etc failed?

16 hours ago, maniac said:

Do you think anyone in the current line up can play a back to the wall knock requiring patience like VVS-Dravid? VVS knock in Durban or Sachin’s knock against a rampaging Steyn or many of Dravid’s knocks in England or finish the game in the first session like Sehwag. No way.

Most of them happened in late 2000s. That batting line up flattered to deceive in early 2000s at home, fact. 

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That was one of the greatest batting line ups ever put together in the history of cricket.

2008-10 one, yeah. Not the 2004 one. 

13 hours ago, maniac said:

I don’t think the current gen bar Pujara don’t have the patience to bat long innings.

Kohli has more 200s than all the guys in 2004 team. What patience? This team has made it a habit of scoring 500+ totals with absolute ease. 

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The moment the ball stars swinging  and zipping, some of our batsmen start to go into T20 mode in tests . I used to make fun of Dhoni and Jadeja for doing that in tests but I have even seen our main batsmen Rahane, Rahul and  Rohit do that.Kohli or Rohit or even Rahane might play some flamboyant innings that looks better than Laxman, Sachin or even Dravid(has he played any in tests) but they cannot even come close to the grit of those guys to bat hours against venemous bowling in tough conditions.

Wait, are we discussing OP's post or going on tangent? Clearly this thread is about Indian conditions. 

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Also @Ankit_sharma03 has skipped the slip catching comparison. Are you telling me that dropping Sachin or Dravid is the same as dropping Bavuma and Mushfiqur Rahim?

2004 Sachin<2019 Kohli

2004 Dravid=2019 Pujara

Which bowling unit is capable of creating more chances? Also don't forget that team had DK as keeper!!! 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Gollum

[adi B]

On a normal Indian pitch ,I think Kohli's team would but it's not as straightforward as it seems.

On a rank Turner, I have no doubt ganguly's team would win ,bhajji and kumble would be too hot to handle ,even peak pathan ! 

The spin playing ability of 2004 team is far superior than the current lot 

[adi B]

I am assuming every player at his peak ?

[rkt.india]

14 hours ago, maniac said:

Kohli’s team batsmen got bundled out vs Moeen Ali and Lyon and you think they can handle Kumble and Bhajji in his prime?

 

Also good lucking dropping catches of Sachin,Dravid and Sehwag and on the other hand Dravid,VVS and Sehwag will grab every chance along the way.

 

 

Yeah like they weren't bundling out against Shaun Udal. When did India lost because of Moeen Ali  or even Nathan Lyon at home? Dont mix up their struggle against Lyon and Moeen overseas to indian conditions. People forget, those guys gave 6-fer to Michael Clarke of all. Ashwin and jaddu are just superior spinners to kumble and bhajji 

[adi B]

Also a lot depends in the toss win ,Kohli's team wont chase anything above 150 in the 4th dig 

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, adi B said:

On a normal Indian pitch ,I think Kohli's team would but it's not as straightforward as it seems.

On a rank Turner, I have no doubt ganguly's team would win ,bhajji and kumble would be too hot to handle ,even peak pathan ! 

The spin playing ability of 2004 team is far superior than the current lot 

Yes but Ashwin and Jaddu are far superior spinners at home than bhajji and kumble. Also, Pathan hasn't done anything at home. With his pace, he would be a nonentity.

[rkt.india]

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Lyon>Bhajji

Moeen...diddly-squat in India with the ball.

Dravid and Laxman dropped their fair share of catches, not nearly as bad as this team but hey 2004 had DK as keeper, this side has GOAT Saha. Current bowling unit is used to creating 26 chances every match, that team would struggle to pick 20 wickets consistently at home. 

Kumble deadly on day 5, otherwise inferior to Ash-Jaddu. Bhajji was a serial chucker FGS, tell me how he would fare sans doosra. 

In India? Zak was mediocre in 2004, Pathan wasn't tougher than any of the RSA quicks we saw last series. 

LOL

I'd argue conversely, Dada's team has a better chance overseas. In SC it will be a slaughter...only on rank tuners aka lottery pitches that 2004 team is the favorite courtesy exceptional ability against spin and because that narrows the gap in bowling ability. 

2004 Sachin tennis elbow version?

2004 Gambhir the rookie?

2004 Ganguly the liability?

What Fab 5 that year?

Only Dravid was at the peak of his powers, Lax was good but he become clutch only in late 2000s. Aussies made that batting unit cry for mercy, this Indian unit is at a higher level in these conditions.

Boss we all saw that famed batting unit collapse against nothing bowlers at home. 

Sachin/Sehwag will do something where Herath, Maharaj, Santner, Rashid, Moeen, Shakib, Afghans etc failed?

Most of them happened in late 2000s. That batting line up flattered to deceive in early 2000s at home, fact. 

2008-10 one, yeah. Not the 2004 one. 

Kohli has more 200s than all the guys in 2004 team. What patience? This team has made it a habit of scoring 500+ totals with absolute ease. 

Wait, are we discussing OP's post or going on tangent? Clearly this thread is about Indian conditions. 

2004 Sachin<2019 Kohli

2004 Dravid=2019 Pujara

Which bowling unit is capable of creating more chances? Also don't forget that team had DK as keeper!!! 

And we also saw how the team consisting of fab 5 shot out at 76 when there was slight swing and seam at Ahmedabad.

[adi B]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yes but Ashwin and Jaddu are far superior spinners at home than bhajji and kumble. Also, Pathan hasn't done anything at home. With his pace, he would be a nonentity.

I am assuming everyone at their peak,bhajji was pretty good at home in his peak. This team has a problem with loopy off spinners and bhajji could have been a nightmare for them on 4th day.

For the 2004 team ,I think negotiating jadeja and shami would be very tough .

Actually it's really not as straightforward, depends on the pitch ,toss 

[Stan AF]

Unpopular opinion: Kohli's team is doing well at home because there aren't strong enough teams that the 2004 team had to face in their times. A good team like the 2012 england/2004 aussie would be tough for kohli's team to beat.

[Gollum]

7 minutes ago, adi B said:

I am assuming everyone at their peak,bhajji was pretty good at home in his peak. This team has a problem with loopy off spinners and bhajji could have been a nightmare for them on 4th day.

2004 team yaar, not peak otherwise we can bring in Ash/Kohli/Che/Saha 2016 versions, Jaddu/Umesh 2017 etc to counter them. You know how bad Sachin was in the tennis elbow phase, Gambhir hit his strides only in 2008, Dada was about to be dropped because of non-performance, Zak was useless.....

Bhajji without doosra wasn't a threat. Seriously hope no chucking or ball tampering is taken into consideration in these hypothetical contests, let it be a fair fight.

[Gollum]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yeah like they weren't bundling out against Shaun Udal. When did India lost because of Moeen Ali  or even Nathan Lyon at home? Dont mix up their struggle against Lyon and Moeen overseas to indian conditions. People forget, those guys gave 6-fer to Michael Clarke of all. Ashwin and jaddu are just superior spinners to kumble and bhajji 

This Indian team will never collapse against Kaneria/Afridi/Arshad Khan on a good playing surface. 

[Gollum]

20 minutes ago, adi B said:

Also a lot depends in the toss win ,Kohli's team wont chase anything above 150 in the 4th dig 

2004 India won't either, esp against this Indian bowling attack. That team choked regularly, only in late 2000s did they grow a spine mainly because of VVS, also all other batsmen barring Dravid played some of their best cricket of their lives in the 2007-10 phase.  

[Ankit_sharma03]

33 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

Unpopular opinion: Kohli's team is doing well at home because there aren't strong enough teams that the 2004 team had to face in their times. A good team like the 2012 england/2004 aussie would be tough for kohli's team to beat.

this team wud have beaten 2012 england team as in that series

• Ashwin wasnt in form- today he is 
• Ojha struggled- jadeja wont as much....infact even lets he does he still offers batting 
• Bhajji was useless- Current India 5th bowler wud be current ishant, kuldeep or bumrah
• umesh got injured in 1st test which we won and he bowled really well, a fully fit umesh in whole series can be a diff ball game
• Shami in Indian condition have done better then any of our spinner so he ll be a huge huge factor 
• Kohli in that series vs kohli now huge diff 
• mayank in form vs a dipping sehwag....huge diff
• Rohit in indian condition against an attack that wudnt trouble him vs decline gambhir 

 

Even 2004 aussie team wud have been defeated higher chance

People only talk about our spinners forgetting shami, umesh, bumrah bowling in our home condition specially reverse swing and bounce on such pitches which have unvariable bounce. Also when we talk about kumble n bhajji, ashwin n jadeja offers more batting as well then them.

 

The point m making is which makes this team really strong is a 4-5 men bowling attack which has no weak link and so many options. No batting lineup likes to face an attack where there is no respite . 

Shami, ashwin, umesh, jadeja all avg  under 26 in home condition vs that team attack in which only kumble avg under 26 and shami , ashwin, jadeja all have better avg then kumble . 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[raki05]

14 hours ago, SK_IH said:

I am not over rating the current Indian lineup but people think that Indian batting lineup of 2004 was invincible

No name spinner can perform once in a while but compare the performance against best spinner of their eras. Compare the oldies performance against murli and warne than these newbies performance against Lyon ( as he is the only good overseas spinner).

[Stan AF]

28 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

this team wud have beaten 2012 england team as in that series

• Ashwin wasnt in form- today he is 
• Ojha struggled- jadeja wont as much....infact even lets he does he still offers batting 
• Bhajji was useless- Current India 5th bowler wud be current ishant, kuldeep or bumrah
• umesh got injured in 1st test which we won and he bowled really well, a fully fit umesh in whole series can be a diff ball game
• Shami in Indian condition have done better then any of our spinner so he ll be a huge huge factor 
• Kohli in that series vs kohli now huge diff 
• mayank in form vs a dipping sehwag....huge diff
• Rohit in indian condition against an attack that wudnt trouble him vs decline gambhir 

 

Even 2004 aussie team wud have been defeated higher chance

People only talk about our spinners forgetting shami, umesh, bumrah bowling in our home condition specially reverse swing and bounce on such pitches which have unvariable bounce. Also when we talk about kumble n bhajji, ashwin n jadeja offers more batting as well then them.

 

The point m making is which makes this team really strong is a 4-5 men bowling attack which has no weak link and so many options. No batting lineup likes to face an attack where there is no respite . 

Shami, ashwin, umesh, jadeja all avg  under 26 in home condition vs that team attack in which only kumble avg under 26 and shami , ashwin, jadeja all have better avg then kumble . 

You're overhyping their chances. This is a team which lost to subpar SENA teams. You're hyping it on the levels of 2000 Aussies and 1980 Windies.

[Stan AF]

I wouldn't fancy Kohli/Pujara staving off a full session of bowling from Mcgrath/warne etc.

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, Stan AF said:

You're overhyping their chances. This is a team which lost to subpar SENA teams. You're hyping it on the levels of 2000 Aussies and 1980 Windies.

How does Perfomance in SENA matter we are talking about indian condition

If SENA Was a factor i wudnt have consider pujara, rohit, umesh such big factors 

 

Nowere did i say they were Like Aus n WI, its a simple question between those 2 teams who ll win. At home this current side is as good a side as anyone but that doesnt make them mighty Aus n WI coz they were good all round. We are just talking about Indian condition here

[Stan AF]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

How does Perfomance in SENA matter we are talking about indian condition

If SENA Was a factor i wudnt have consider pujara, rohit, umesh such big factors 

 

Nowere did i say they were Like Aus n WI, its a simple question between those 2 teams who ll win. At home this current side is as good a side as anyone but that doesnt make them mighty Aus n WI coz they were good all round. We are just talking about Indian condition here

Even in Indian conditions this team could be beaten. We just don't have a strong Aussie/SA side like the previous eras that used to give tough competition. Test teams quality has generally gone down in this decade.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Stan AF

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, Stan AF said:

Even in Indian conditions this team could be beaten. We just don't have a strong Aussie/SA side like the previous eras that used to give tough competition. Test teams quality has generally gone down in this decade.

the diff between could n would is huge, A quality side wud test them but we have the bowling to come on top . If those sides had better batting quality then we have the bowling quality to counter them now....our fast bowling at home is as good as spin bowling. Earlier those same players had the only challenge of spinners ....so the question reverse how wud they have faired if put against a 5 man lethal attack as compare 2 men attack. We defeated that aussie side only with bhajji and now we have 5 bowlers