coffee_rules Posted May 12, 2020 Author Posted May 12, 2020 @Mariyam Last reply to you too. Please read about how Secularism came into western thought and how it is not applicable to India at all. This is a EU socilaist education given to INC leaders. If you think Islam doesn't need any reform and as long as you believe in idealogies like Surah Al-Kafirun privately, you are golden, then there is nothing more to discuss. Resting my case.
coffee_rules Posted May 12, 2020 Author Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) Just one question to all Secularists. If the establishment allows a satvic or dharmic certification of vegetarian food and claim that no non-dharmic people are employed to prepare this food, will it be allowed in our constitution? Halal food is an equivalent of that , that every establishment like even Air india is proudly adhering and complying to. Edited May 12, 2020 by coffee_rules
Mariyam Posted May 12, 2020 Posted May 12, 2020 3 hours ago, coffee_rules said: @Mariyam Last reply to you too. Please read about how Secularism came into western thought and how it is not applicable to India at all. This is a EU socilaist education given to INC leaders. If you think Islam doesn't need any reform and as long as you believe in idealogies like Surah Al-Kafirun privately, you are golden, then there is nothing more to discuss. Resting my case. Where have I said anything about Islam needing or not needing reform? Care to point that out?
Alam_dar Posted May 12, 2020 Posted May 12, 2020 36 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Just one question to all Secularists. If the establishment allows a satvic or dharmic certification of vegetarian food and claim that no non-dharmic people are employed to prepare this food, will it be allowed in our constitution? Halal food is an equivalent of that , that every establishment like even Air india is proudly adhering and complying to. In Europe, schools and universities all have one vegetarian dish and one non-veg dish. The meat is never Halal. Air India should also get rid of Halal meat. A secular state should not host any demand of any religion. And Sikhs are not allowed to eat Halal religiously.
Mariyam Posted May 12, 2020 Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Just one question to all Secularists. If the establishment allows a satvic or dharmic certification of vegetarian food and claim that no non-dharmic people are employed to prepare this food, will it be allowed in our constitution? Halal food is an equivalent of that , that every establishment like even Air india is proudly adhering and complying to. There is something fundamentally wrong with your understanding of these issues. Why are you asking "secularists" what will be allowed in our constitution? You should be asking people who are experts on the constitution if it would be allowed. Halal food is an equivalent now? Until now you were of the vehement opinion that Islamic practices and Hindu practices have no equivalence whatsoever. An opinion you made sure you plastered all over the forum, even in unrelated threads. What suddenly changed? Edited May 12, 2020 by Mariyam
Vilander Posted May 12, 2020 Posted May 12, 2020 9 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: This guy is beyond help. In another thread, he actually said that 'hindus were 80-90% equal' during akbar's time... It sounds funny, but what worries me is that he actually thinks these are reasonable arguments. He is basically Pakistani
MechEng Posted May 12, 2020 Posted May 12, 2020 12 hours ago, Alam_dar said: My request is to please understand the BASIC Atheist's OBJECTION on this issue. Objection upon the Incompetence of gods: (1) Today Muslim Apologists come and tell us that Islamic Scholars of past misunderstand the Quranic Verses and Ahadith on the subject of marriage of 2 years old girl, or about killing the Kafirs and to humiliate the non-Muslims etc. And then they present pages long new interpretations of Quranic verses where they present the totally opposite picture of Islam of the past, while Ahadith of Muhammad are totally rejected by presenting one lame excuse of another. And we answer these Muslim apologists, by telling them that: * Why the millions of Islamic Scholars of last 14 centuries misunderstood Quranic Verses on these subjects? Why was Allah not able to reveal the verses in a manner that a normal person could easily understand them and then not to go astray? Quran is a very thick book, which your Allah filled with boasting about his Powers, but we don't have any Laws about the Slaves and any laws about beating women or any other issue (except for very few verses). Therefore, if millions of Slave Women were raped by millions of Muslims during last 14 centuries, then is it not Allah's incompetence which is responsible for their rape and all the hardships? Then how could Muslim's claim that their Allah is All Wise, All Knower, All Competent when this same Allah was not even able to reveal the laws about the slaves and women and non-Muslims in a sensible manner? (2) Same is true about the Judaism and Christianity. (3) And same is true about Hinduism too. The question is not if caste system disappeared during the British rule. And question is also not if Hinduism is REFORMING today and ending the caste system trends today. But the basic Atheist Objection is why Hindu gods were incompetent to reveal Clear and Straight orders and laws about the Caste System that would have been easily understood by all, and none had gone astray? Vedas and other Hindu religious books are thick books like Quran and Bible. They are full about the stories of gods, but when it comes to the most important part i.e. Human Rights, then they are vague. And due to this millions and billions of Hindus of past several thousand years were misguided and thus millions of low caste people had to suffer badly for thousands of years. 2nd Basic Objection: Why Allah stopped contacting People through prophets? Quran and Bible of Muslim/Judaism/Christianity are telling the stories that there were multiple prophets who were constantly sent by Allah/God to guide the humans. Therefore, question arises why then Jewish God didn't sent any prophet for the last 2400 years? (Last Jewish Prophet was Malachi who came about 420 BCE years ago). And Last Prophet of Christians came 2000 years ago (i.e. Jesus) And last Prophet of Islam came 1400 years ago (i.e. Muhammad). If really all Muslims of last 14 centuries misunderstood Quran/Ahadith about Slaves and Women, why then Allah didn't contact with humans any more through any other prophet and corrected them? Why Allah let millions of slaves and women and non-Muslims suffer and didn't help them during this era? Off course these modern Muslim Apologists have no answer to this question. Same is true about modern Jewish/Christian apologists too. And this same question is valid for Hinduism too. If really there exist any God/Light, in which Hindus believe and who contacted the humans in the past, and who sent the Vedas for guidance of humanity, then why didn't this God/Light didn't contact the humanity any more when this God/Light saw that his/her Vedas were misunderstood and humanity was suffering due to caste system? Till Ramayan and Mahabharata, there were dozens of gods or Awtars of gods who were directly in contact with humans. But suddenly all of them disappeared and thus gods were unable to reform the Hindu Society. It is not important for me if Buddha was real or not. The important thing for me is this that a group of people indeed rebelled against the caste system of Hindu society and abandoned this religion totally. They denied Vedas. They denied all other so called "divine" teachings. They became a separate entity, just like the Indian ancient Atheists, The Charvakas. You're overthinking it big time. You probably need to visit India once to understand what others are saying here.
coffee_rules Posted May 12, 2020 Author Posted May 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Mariyam said: There is something fundamentally wrong with your understanding of these issues. Why are you asking "secularists" what will be allowed in our constitution? You should be asking people who are experts on the constitution if it would be allowed. You are asking me wrong questions.Think why Halal food has become jais? I am asking you people (secularists), because you find no problem with Halal food, but when a jain bakery owner claims he is certifying there is no Muslim employed, all secularists are up in arms! 1 hour ago, Mariyam said: Halal food is an equivalent now? Until now you were of the vehement opinion that Islamic practices and Hindu practices have no equivalence whatsoever. An opinion you made sure you plastered all over the forum, even in unrelated threads. What suddenly changed? It is all in this debate in this OP. Halal food is equivalent to La illaha illalah. If you don't see the connection, there is no point in this discussion
Gollum Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Mariyam said: Halal food Mariyam, can a Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Buddhist be employed in a halal butcher shop? What are the other requirements of halal, apart from 'no alcohol'? Why are some vegetarian food options marked halal? Came to know that Amul and Patanjali are halal certified, what does that mean? How are dairy products categorized as halal/haraam?
MechEng Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 54 minutes ago, Gollum said: Mariyam, can a Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Buddhist be employed in a halal butcher shop? What are the other requirements of halal, apart from 'no alcohol'? Why are some vegetarian food options marked halal? Came to know that Amul and Patanjali are halal certified, what does that mean? How are dairy products categorized as halal/haraam? See?? I knew it!! I knew it!! Gollum always wanted to convert.
Gollum Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, MechEng said: See?? I knew it!! I knew it!! Gollum always wanted to convert. You can call me Gulfam.
Mariyam Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Gollum said: Mariyam, can a Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Buddhist be employed in a halal butcher shop? What are the other requirements of halal, apart from 'no alcohol'? Why are some vegetarian food options marked halal? Came to know that Amul and Patanjali are halal certified, what does that mean? How are dairy products categorized as halal/haraam? I am not an authority on Halal. Can be employed at the butcher shop but not as the butcher. Not at an abattoir either, carrying out ritual slaughter of animals. With dairy products, I think presence of alcohol and some types of oils/lard is shunned. I was under the impression that veg food is halal by default.
Alam_dar Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Gollum said: Mariyam, can a Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Buddhist be employed in a halal butcher shop? What are the other requirements of halal, apart from 'no alcohol'? Why are some vegetarian food options marked halal? Came to know that Amul and Patanjali are halal certified, what does that mean? How are dairy products categorized as halal/haraam? If a Muslim drinks alcohol, and he is dirty, and he is a fornicator, and he is a killer, still nothing of this matters and if he slaughters the animal reciting Allahu Akbar, then the Zabiha is halal. But if a non-Muslim is neat and clean and has the best of human character, and he also says Allahu Akbar at time of slaughter, still it is not accepted and meat becomes Haram. Even a cassette player (with a Muslim voice) saying Allahu Akbar at time of slaughter is better than this non-Muslim. A State should be free of religion. In Europe, no government institutes buy Halal meat for their ceremonies and parties. Schools and universities all have non-Halal meat. Same is true about the air lines. Nevertheless, this misuse of Halal meat in India is a non-issue here and it has nothing to do with the original definition of Secularism, where Mariyam is totally correct. Simple but complete solution already lies in values of Secularism i.e. keep your ideology, prayers, azaans, bells only to yourself and don't disturb the others. It is useless to declare one religion better than another under the Secular System, while secularism does not deal with religions being less good or more good, but it deals them equally and their followers equally too. The excuse of "pluralism" is also useless. The ancient Indian Atheists Charvakas didn't accept the Hindu gods, but they denied all Hindu gods, and all Vedas and considered whole Hindu religion and vedas to be a human drama. Same is true with Buddhists who also denied the pluralism and Hindu gods and Vedas. Jews consider Jesus and Muhammad to be liars and dramas. Muslim consider Ahmadis/Qadianis to be a liar and drama. And modern atheists consider all religions to be human dramas, and show no respect to any god of any religion and there is no pluralism in their behaviour about any god. That is why Secularism does not judge any religion on the bases of pluralism etc.
raki05 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) On 5/12/2020 at 2:12 AM, Alam_dar said: don't know about all Moghuls, but I have seen Javed Akhtar praising Akbar only for going against the normal Muslim culture and still trying to implement more and more secular values. Akbar may not had been able to introduce 100% Secular values, but he was the best among all the Muslim Indian Rulers. Deleted Edited May 13, 2020 by raki05
raki05 Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 Arey Javed sirf totla nahi dogla bhia hai.......and the atheist in this thread who is singing Ainey Akbari here can shove din e elahi and get lost. Can I ask how many Muslim women married to other religion men as compared to hindu women who were forcefully converted lead by hypocrite Akbar.
coffee_rules Posted May 13, 2020 Author Posted May 13, 2020 10 hours ago, Gollum said: Mariyam, can a Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Buddhist be employed in a halal butcher shop? What are the other requirements of halal, apart from 'no alcohol'? Why are some vegetarian food options marked halal? Came to know that Amul and Patanjali are halal certified, what does that mean? How are dairy products categorized as halal/haraam? Halalonomics, https://www.opindia.com/2019/10/halal-certification-of-vegetarian-products-its-no-longer-about-choice-but-making-others-pay-for-your-beliefs/ Quote According to Islamic law, vegetarian food is halal by default. However, they could contain non-Halal ingredients that would make them Haram. The same is the case with flour. Processed flour could contain additives that would make it non-Halal. Therefore, certification is necessary to certify that the flour is indeed Halal. The website ‘aMuslima‘ explains, “Inexpensive L-cysteine mostly available in the market is L-cysteine made from human hair, especially those coming from China. Of course, because it is derived from the human body then L-cysteine is forbidden. So that, flour uses L-cysteine from human hair is haram (prohibited) for Muslims. However, in addition to L-cysteine made from human hair, it can also be obtained from poultry feathers. As we know a lot of hair and feathers contain L-cysteine. L-cysteine from poultry feather is still questionable of its halal-ness. If it was obtained at the time when the animal was still alive, it is prohibited. If it was taken when the animal was dead, it is questionable whether it was slaughtered based on Islam? Fortunately, now there are L-cysteine produced by fermentation and may be used, but the price is more expensive. Thus, actually, flour on the market is not necessary haram, although using L-cysteine, depending on which L-cysteine derived. If we find flour with no halal logo on the pack, then we have to avoid it.” It is a business scam to favor some products over others. The list of Haraam items keeps growing , Mullah will read Hadiths ans Surahs and certify what is Halal or Haraam. He can literaaly make it up based on his whims. This is needed only so the clientale will not buy anything that is not certified. Quote Thus, there is one marked difference between Halal slaughter and certification for products that do not contain animal products. Halal slaughter can only be performed by a Muslim man. Thus, non-Muslims are automatically denied employment at a Halal firm. There are certain other conditions that must be fulfilled that makes it quite clear that it is intrinsically an Islamic practice. Guidelines available at the official websites of certification authorities make it abundantly clear that non-Muslim employees cannot be engaged in any part of the slaughtering process. As can be seen across the world, Halal certification is all the rage. Even in countries where Muslims are a micro-minority, businesses work overtime to ensure that their products are halal certified. This phenomenon is explained quite eloquently by the rather eccentric but brilliant scholar, Nassim Nicolas Taleb, through the concept of ‘The Most Intolerant Wins‘. He asserted that if there is a section of the population, albeit a minority, who will not consume something at any cost owing to their belief system but the larger majority simply doesn’t care enough, then businesses will only be overeager to accommodate the ‘intolerance’ of the minority population
coffee_rules Posted May 13, 2020 Author Posted May 13, 2020 10 hours ago, MechEng said: See?? I knew it!! I knew it!! Gollum always wanted to convert. Well, he's already converted from a Bhakt to a Liberal Nastik!
coffee_rules Posted May 13, 2020 Author Posted May 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Alam_dar said: he excuse of "pluralism" is also useless. The ancient Indian Atheists Charvakas didn't accept the Hindu gods, but they denied all Hindu gods, and all Vedas and considered whole Hindu religion and vedas to be a human drama. Same is true with Buddhists who also denied the pluralism and Hindu gods and Vedas. First educate yourself what plularism means. It is not many gods! It is about living peacefully by respecting all traditions, rituals, practices and philosophies, without killing each other by calling the other disbelievers. Hence, a lot of persecuted people across the world were given shelter in India and they could practce their rleigion peacefully. Jews, Zorastrians, Syrian Christians, Even early Muslims were given asylum when they were persecuted and killed in their region. World's oldest mosque is in Kerala even older than Kaaba! That is a plularistic society and not about how many gods we pray to! Buddha is considered an avatar of Vishnu and as a Guru in Hindu tradition. It is the west philosophers who carved out a new "religion", He was eliter leader who preached against so of the rituals which were discriminating. His teachings were inspired by Upanishads, so Buddha's teachings are considered Vedanta by some.
Alam_dar Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: First educate yourself what plularism means. It is not many gods! It was told to me that Hinduism claims that God/Light is one and it considered other ideologies too as path to read the same light. 24 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: It is about living peacefully by respecting all traditions, rituals, practices and philosophies, without killing each other by calling the other disbelievers. It is the same thing which present day Secularism promotes. For the first time Jews and Christians and Hindus and even Muslims and their sects have been living peacefully in Europe. But still for the Hindu Right, the present day Secularism is evil. 24 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Hence, a lot of persecuted people across the world were given shelter in India and they could practce their rleigion peacefully. Jews, Zorastrians, Syrian Christians, Even early Muslims were given asylum when they were persecuted and killed in their region. Is it not the same what we see today in the Secular West? While the Dharmic India of today is full of hate and prejudice against Muslims and Christians and doing exactly the opposite of pluralism? 24 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Buddha is considered an avatar of Vishnu and as a Guru in Hindu tradition. It is the west philosophers who carved out a new "religion", He was eliter leader who preached against so of the rituals which were discriminating. His teachings were inspired by Upanishads, so Buddha's teachings are considered Vedanta by some. Buddha is not relative, while finally the group of people (the Buddhists) rejected the Vedas and Hindu Religion and philosophy completely and came out of it's fold. Same is true about the Charvakas. Here are the beliefs of Charvakas: To Charvakas, the text states, the Vedas suffered from several faults – errors in transmission across generations, untruth, self-contradiction and tautology. The Charvakas pointed out the disagreements, debates and mutual rejection by karmakanda Vedic priests and jñānakanda Vedic priests, as proof that either one of them is wrong or both are wrong, as both cannot be right.[55][56][57] Charvakas, according to Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha verses 10 and 11, declared the Vedas to be incoherent rhapsodies whose only usefulness was to provide livelihood to priests. They also held the belief that Vedas were invented by man, and had no divine authority.[51] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka
Alam_dar Posted May 13, 2020 Posted May 13, 2020 50 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Well, he's already converted from a Bhakt to a Liberal Nastik! Is Liberal Nastik comes under the pluralism? Is the Secularism itself comes under the pluralism according to you? On one side you claim that Dharmic Religion was so open minded that even it accepted Muslims and all other religions and gave them shelter. But on the other side, you declare Secularism to be foreign to India and you are not ready to accept it. In today's world, if someone is representing the pluralism, then it is the Secularism, and not the Right Wing Hindutva movement.
Recommended Posts