Oceania's greatest test cricketer

[zen]

The battle for the greatest test cricketer from Oceania, which has produced quite a few gems, is between an Aussie and a Kiwi:

 

• Sir Don Bradman. Way ahead of every other batsman w/ close to 7K runs at an avg close to 100 in 52 tests played over 2 decades. In terms of runs per inning, it is close to 88 runs w/ a 100 scored in every 3 inning or so. Next best is S Smith with an average of 64 in 71 tests so far. 
• Sir Richard Hadlee. Phenomenal AR cricketer but his exploits as a bowler are unmatched. 431 wickets in just 150 innings, which is like 3 wkts per inning (2.85). For comparison, McGrath picked up 363 wickets in 151 innings (78 completed tests) so Hadlee picked up an astonishing 68 more wkts in one less inning. Dennis Lillee has 355 wickets in 132 innings. Hadlee and Lillee meet the 5 wlts per test benchmark. In terms of 5-ers, Hadlee has 36 which roughly comes to a 5-er in every 4 innings. Add to his bowling, his batting and fielding skills. 

 

Both of them played smart cricket. Bradman led his side as well. So which one would you go for - the great batsman or the great bowler/AR - for the Oceania's greatest cricketer title?

[Sandeep99]

Has to be Bradman. Followed by Hadlee and then maybe others like Chappell, Benaud, Crowe, Border follow...

[zen]

11 hours ago, Sandeep99 said:

Has to be Bradman. Followed by Hadlee and then maybe others like Chappell, Benaud, Crowe, Border follow...

The region has produced quite a few talented cricketers so it is amazing to see these two cricketers still stand out. 

[maniac]

Don’t believe in subjective criteria. Based on tangible facts

Records

Longevity 

accomplishments

Number of formats played and excelled in

Magical performances in the respective weaker skills 

After running through all the permutations and combinations

 

The cricket acumen computer throws out one name 

 

Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by maniac

[maniac]

Don’t blame the computer, blame the guy running the computer :)  if it is the Aus-Nzl area

 

I would go with 

 

Shane Warne followed by Ponting followed by Hadlee followed by Bradman 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Mcgrath

 

[Gollum]

1. Bradman

2. Warne

 

Keith Miller is at the same level as Hadlee IMO, ok the Kiwi may be a tad better but not conclusively. Bradman is the GOAT, will always be number one as long as the sport exists, Warne second best because we may never see another all conditions, all formats, big match player and match/series/tourney winning spinner sans chucking, leg spin is a bloody tough art and he is the ultimate sensei of the craft. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Gollum

[zen]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:56 AM, Gollum said:

1. Bradman

2. Warne

Keith Miller is at the same level as Hadlee IMO, ok the Kiwi may be a tad better but not conclusively. Bradman is the GOAT, will always be number one as long as the sport exists, Warne second best because we may never see another all conditions, all formats, big match player and match/series/tourney winning spinner sans chucking, leg spin is a bloody tough art and he is the ultimate sensei of the craft. 

Greatest title is attributed based on performances not necessarily uniqueness (I get a feeling that you chose Warne because you feel he is unique but one does not need to include a spinner in a 11). Bradman (roughly hitting 90 runs per inning) and Hadlee (picking up roughly 3 wkts per inning + AR skills) are top two for their performances. 

 

Based on performance points per inning (let's call it PPI), where 1 wkt = roughly 21 runs (based on some back of envelope calculations I did some time back):

 

 

    

Only Hadlee comes close to Bradman mathematically. Above Bradman is at 92, while Hadlee is at 84. Accounting for a variance of around 10% considering eras and/or roles (one is a batsman, while the other is a bowler/AR), they are similar in impact. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

Bradman quite comfortably. 

[maniac]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Greatest title is attributed based on performances not necessarily uniqueness (I get a feeling that you chose Warne because you feel he is unique but one does not need to include a spinner in a 11). Bradman (roughly hitting 90 runs per inning) and Hadlee (picking up roughly 3 wkts per inning + AR skills) are top two for their performances. 

 

Based on performance points per inning (let's call it PPI), where 1 wkt = roughly 21 runs (based on some back of envelope calculations I did some time back):

 

    

Only Hadlee comes close to Bradman mathematically. Above Bradman is at 92, while Hadlee is at 84. Accounting for a variance of around 10% considering eras and/or roles (one is a batsman, while the other is a bowler/AR), they are similar in impact. 

You are only going by stats. You need to bring in theoretical  models also when you are assessing across eras and making the bold statement as  best ever.

 

Warne singlehandedly rescued a dying art in cricket which is leg spin. Him and Murali singlehandedly raised the profile of a spinner in cricket by being the strike bowlers, Warne played in and outside his conditions against multiple opponents and lesser weak teams. He won a odi Wc along and did well in that format too. His test exploits are self explanatory.

 

Also remember Warne’s  contribution to the IPL. I still think Rajasthan under Warne’s leadership winning the first IPL gave it a global event feel and put it on the map.

 

Shane Warne is probably the most iconic cricketer from Oceania.

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by maniac

[zen]

32 minutes ago, maniac said:

You are only going by stats. You need to bring in theoretical  models also when you are assessing across eras and making the bold statement as  best ever.

 

Warne singlehandedly rescued a dying art in cricket which is leg spin. Him and Murali singlehandedly raised the profile of a spinner in cricket by being the strike bowlers, Warne played in and outside his conditions against multiple opponents and lesser weak teams. He won a odi Wc along and did well in that format too. His test exploits are self explanatory.

 

Also remember Warne’s  contribution to the IPL. I still think Rajasthan under Warne’s leadership winning the first IPL gave it a global event feel and put it on the map.

 

Shane Warne is probably the most iconic cricketer from Oceania.

Warne is definitely a legend and one of my favorites. Here we are discussing the greatest "test" cricketer from Oceania b/w Bradman and Hadlee, who are legendary too.  In terms of impact for e.g., Hadlee has been more impactful in tests as a bowler despite gathering much less support than what Warne received.  Add to the bowling, his AR skills. The impact is also refelected in numbers. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by zen

[Sooda]

Min of 5 per country OCeania XI

 

Matt Hayden, Glenn Turner, Bradman, Williamson, M Crowe, S Smith, Gilchrist, Hadlee, Warne, McGrath, Wagner

Edited June 6, 2020 by Sooda

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Sooda said:

Min of 5 per country OCeania XI

Matt Hayden, Glenn Turner, Bradman, Williamson, M Crowe, S Smith, Gilchrist, Hadlee, Warne, McGrath, Boult

Not bad. In your 11, I would bring in at least Bond in place of Boult unless you are seeking a left arm option .... McGrath/Lillee based on coin toss atm 

[Sooda]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Not bad. In your 11, I would bring in at least Bond in place of Boult unless you are seeking a left arm option .... McGrath/Lillee based on coin toss atm 

I made a last min edit to Wagner :) thought he would be a good foil to Hadlee/ McGrath. Also Miller in at 6 for Smith could be an option

Edited June 6, 2020 by Sooda