Is college still worth the investment in a post-COVID era?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Everyone knows the story. Colleges are no longer motivated to provide rigorous academic pursuit, and have become commercialized 'for-profit' entities. Colleges now sell themselves as an 'experience', much like any consumer good on the market.

 

This has led to colleges becoming too accessible and too 'inclusive' - which in turn, has devalued a college education to the level of a high school degree. It's basically a rubber stamp. If anyone and everyone can 'earn' a college degree, does it carry any value? Is it indicative of workplace competence? Does it show evidence of transferable skill? Probably not.

 

This is certainly true at the undergrad level in the USA. Unless you're in STEM - which seems more and more 'foreign' dominated - we have far too many gender studies and underwater basket-weaving BAs taking on absurd amounts of debt and struggling to get jobs. I was lucky enough to have college paid for (i'm spoiled), but almost everything i learned in life was on the job, and never in a classroom. The only 'real' education i got, was learning how to live independently away from my parents.

 

In india, i'm not sure college counts for anything - everyone dreams of studying at second-rate engineering and medical colleges - without realizing that an economy needs just as many tradespeople as it does 'white collar' professionals. I don't get the fascination. Who the hell is gonna employ all these 'engineers' ?

 

Online education will most likely become the norm. But do people still need to go to college? The excessive cost doesn't seem justifiable anymore. Outside of STEM and law, do other courses even require class-room instruction?

[randomGuy]

Computers are integral part of everyday life...it is an evergreen field I think...

 

So is medical, for example dental... people are always going to need root canals etc.

 

So engineering and medical field employment will always remain I think.

 

I agree with you, classroom instruction is not required very much in engineering also.

[coffee_rules]

Driven by industry, they facking only employ grads from prestigious colleges.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

9 hours ago, randomGuy said:

Computers are integral part of everyday life...it is an evergreen field I think...

 

So is medical, for example dental... people are always going to need root canals etc.

 

So engineering and medical field employment will always remain I think.

 

I agree with you, classroom instruction is not required very much in engineering also.

Not really. How many low level programming jobs will exist 10 years from now? Especially with advancements in artificial intelligence?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

9 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Driven by industry, they facking only employ grads from prestigious colleges.

Which is the right thing to do.

 

Good engineers are rare, and prestigious colleges have high standards for admission. Any public policy looking to make high-end jobs accessible to the general population is a complete waste of energy and resources.

 

Why does india have millions of crappy, unemployable 'engineers' ?

[randomGuy]

21 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

Not really. How many low level programming jobs will exist 10 years from now? Especially with advancements in artificial intelligence?

Very much so. AI jobs will flourish...non AI software jobs will flourish also. Manpower will always be required...for ex. when you go to make or renew your passport, you go to passport centre which is managed by TCS... your hospital management, banking, electricity boards - software everywhere.. computer gaming industry also...

 

Infact population grows older (if) heavy people requirements  in healthcare industry, I am more optimistic on software jobs than even healthcare... software will remain very very dominant.

Edited June 13, 2020 by randomGuy

[Clarke]

34 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

Which is the right thing to do.

 

Good engineers are rare, and prestigious colleges have high standards for admission. Any public policy looking to make high-end jobs accessible to the general population is a complete waste of energy and resources.

 

Why does india have millions of crappy, unemployable 'engineers' ?

It's a symptom of our general society, with high population and low hdi, low cost & low quality works for the majority. 

 

The roadmaps are pretty clear. Almost everyone who desires the corporate ladder goes through the grind and after all every company wants proof of some  level of dedication in form of a degree certificate. What you study and build upon it is pretty important if you're asking the main question. There's only so much of humanities jobs.

 

The ones who are really ambitious in their teen years & skip college in the west typically have a drive to build something of their own and it wouldn't make sense to try for a corporate job post high school.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Clarke

[Manny_Pacquiao]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

Very much so. AI jobs will flourish...non AI software jobs will flourish also. Manpower will always be required...for ex. when you go to make or renew your passport, you go to passport centre which is managed by TCS... your hospital management, banking, electricity boards - software everywhere.. computer gaming industry also...

 

Infact population grows older (if) heavy people requirements  in healthcare industry, I am more optimistic on software jobs than even healthcare... software will remain very very dominant.

It depends on what we mean by software jobs...you really think the low level, back-office stuff can't be done with AI? I'm referring to most of those cheap H1B jobs.

 

Healthcare will remain untouched, as there's still a human component to it. But AI could easily erase call centers, back-office, secretarial positions, any kind of 'middle man' or agent. Not to mention taxis, buses, delivery. But a complete transformation won't happen 10 years from now. Maybe 20 years from now.

 

1 hour ago, Clarke said:

It's a symptom of our general society, with high population and low hdi, low cost & low quality works for the majority. 

 

The roadmaps are pretty clear. Almost everyone who desires the corporate ladder goes through the grind and after all every company wants proof of some  level of dedication in form of a degree certificate. What you study and build upon it is pretty important if you're asking the main question. There's only so much of humanities jobs.

 

The ones who are really ambitious in their teen years & skip college in the west typically have a drive to build something of their own and it wouldn't make sense to try for a corporate job post high school.

A degree demonstrates dedication in combination with other qualities - such as project work, leadership, 'intangibles', problem solving and interpersonal skills. The degree by itself, is worthless.

 

There was a time when you could work a corporate job straight out of high school. Not in India maybe, but definitely in the US. Those days are gone. But the nature of work has changed as well...there's a lot less running around and 'learning on the job'. Nobody wants to train an employee, you'd rather hire someone who fits the exact profile of what you're looking for. 

 

Which leads me to the next point...there should be far more financial literacy classes in high school. The ones you call 'ambitious' just happen to be better informed. Kids should learn simple concepts such as time value of money, credit, taxation. Its difficult to be 'entrepreneurial' without the knowledge. At least it makes one aware of an alternative, non-university career path. I get the feeling too many schools in india prepare kids for government jobs or university, kids think those are the only options.

 

How many kids in india actually dream of owning a business? Wouldn't it make sense for a company like Jio to simply train high school graduates for specific jobs? It would be far more useful than some pointless engineering or humanities degree.

 

Another issue is the perception of profession as 'social status'. And this only exists in india. Nobody would openly admit that they work in a blue collar job, its seen as 'low class'.

[randomGuy]

AI I have studied actually...(Andrew Ng courses, because I was interested in maths behind it)...AI will be used in for ex  self-driven cars, military, speech recognition, image processing, recognising spam emails, giving you suggestions to shop/search online based on what you searched earlier...

 

I do not think AI will eat sw jobs... infact there are only a few companies in the world doing anything worthwhile through AI...I guess one can count on fingers...

[Clarke]

2 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

 

A degree demonstrates dedication in combination with other qualities - such as project work, leadership, 'intangibles', problem solving and interpersonal skills. The degree by itself, is worthless.

What ? All things being equal, Person A has a 4 year degree and person B is a high school passout, so both are on the same page in your book, even when shortlisting for the first round interview ? It's not like we're talking about the honorary doctorate that arrives in the mail for celebrities.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Clarke

[Manny_Pacquiao]

5 minutes ago, Clarke said:

What ? All things being equal, Person A has a 4 year degree and person B is a high school passout, so both are on the same page in your book, even when shortlisting for the first round interview ? It's not like we're talking about the honorary doctorate that arrives in the mail for celebrities.

No, i meant if Person A and Person B have the same degree, the degree isn't a tie-breaker. It's worthless. The degree doesn't count when standards for earning it are low and everybody has one. You need to look at the degree as only one aspect of a candidate's profile.

 

High school graduate with the requisite skills and desirable profile also wins over a 'degree' holder, but that situation is rare.

[kubrickian]

wrong url

Edited June 13, 2020 by kubrickian

[MechEng]

STEM ka bhi bura haal hai in US, speaking from personal experience.

You either need to be very lucky to know the right person for a reference to a job interview or you must be a bordering prodigy to get a job on your own. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by MechEng

[Vilander]

14 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

advancements in artificial intelligence?

What are these ?

[Manny_Pacquiao]

8 hours ago, Vilander said:

What are these ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2018/09/27/15-business-applications-for-artificial-intelligence-and-machine-learning/#71c95f83579f

[coffee_rules]

On 6/13/2020 at 6:05 AM, Manny_Pacquiao said:

Which is the right thing to do.

 

Good engineers are rare, and prestigious colleges have high standards for admission. Any public policy looking to make high-end jobs accessible to the general population is a complete waste of energy and resources.

 

Why does india have millions of crappy, unemployable 'engineers' ?

The only way out of poverty or lower middle class is education. Unless, like 70s and now in US, where HS dropouts gets low paying jobs which they can survive on their own with lotsa of credit cards etc. we can’t sustain without a college degree in India.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:01 AM, coffee_rules said:

The only way out of poverty or lower middle class is education. Unless, like 70s and now in US, where HS dropouts gets low paying jobs which they can survive on their own with lotsa of credit cards etc. we can’t sustain without a college degree in India.

I'm not sure how you get out of poverty with a college degree. Especially when a [good] college degree is expensive and guarantees nothing.

 

People get out of poverty by learning a trade - electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc. This is how it works the world over.

 

In india, its a bit harder because there's so many 'blue collar' workers, so the cost of labor is driven down.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Manny_Pacquiao

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

I'm not sure how you get out of poverty with a college degree. Especially when a [good] college degree is expensive and guarantees nothing.

 

People get out of poverty by learning a trade - electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc. This is how it works the world over.

 

In india, its a bit harder because there's so many 'blue collar' workers, so the cost of labor is driven down.

What I meant was College education leading to jobs, on the job training and continued success of upwards mobility

In my experience, we came a lower middle class family, all got a college degree and jobs and I can say we are out of lower middle class bracket and into upper.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

What I meant was College education leading to jobs, on the job training and continued success of upwards mobility

In my experience, we came a lower middle class family, all got a college degree and jobs and I can say we are out of lower middle class bracket and into upper.

Makes sense, but most college grads don't get jobs or 'placements' (as they call it in india) nowadays. Far too many berozgaar grads. So how useful is a degree nowadays?

Edited June 17, 2020 by Manny_Pacquiao

[raki05]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:32 PM, Manny_Pacquiao said:

It depends on what we mean by software jobs...you really think the low level, back-office stuff can't be done with AI? I'm referring to most of those cheap H1B jobs.

 

Healthcare will remain untouched, as there's still a human component to it. But AI could easily erase call centers, back-office, secretarial positions, any kind of 'middle man' or agent. Not to mention taxis, buses, delivery. But a complete transformation won't happen 10 years from now. Maybe 20 years from now.

 

A degree demonstrates dedication in combination with other qualities - such as project work, leadership, 'intangibles', problem solving and interpersonal skills. The degree by itself, is worthless.

 

There was a time when you could work a corporate job straight out of high school. Not in India maybe, but definitely in the US. Those days are gone. But the nature of work has changed as well...there's a lot less running around and 'learning on the job'. Nobody wants to train an employee, you'd rather hire someone who fits the exact profile of what you're looking for. 

 

Which leads me to the next point...there should be far more financial literacy classes in high school. The ones you call 'ambitious' just happen to be better informed. Kids should learn simple concepts such as time value of money, credit, taxation. Its difficult to be 'entrepreneurial' without the knowledge. At least it makes one aware of an alternative, non-university career path. I get the feeling too many schools in india prepare kids for government jobs or university, kids think those are the only options.

 

How many kids in india actually dream of owning a business? Wouldn't it make sense for a company like Jio to simply train high school graduates for specific jobs? It would be far more useful than some pointless engineering or humanities degree.

 

Another issue is the perception of profession as 'social status'. And this only exists in india. Nobody would openly admit that they work in a blue collar job, its seen as 'low class'.

It doesn't matter what you study what matter is quality of studies. India can be a biggest resource of service provider and that itself can be an indigenous and innovative product. You don't really need to be an entrepreneur to be successful in life we should focus on quality of education be it engineering, medical or any field should be more research based and practical and pretty much inline with the world demands. We can develop our own niche in service sector than copying others where already there pre established competitors are such as manufacturing,warfare ,aircraft or pharma . I am not saying we should stop seeing opportunities there but we should try to focus and flourish in the area where we already have a platform. Take an example of Singapore just on the basis of their education and catring to the world demand they are a devloped nation.