Rahane's future

[Trichromatic]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Doesn’t that skew your data because Indian and SA attack’s have had  a huge gulf in quality.

Already fixed and posted.

[zen]

39 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

We are talking about MO as SRT didn't play UO. Using similar logic, I am not including SA for SRT as Kallis didn't face SA, and not including Ind for Kallis as SRT didn't face Ind.

 

Comparing same teams and fixing the mistake from your post + giving you timeline free numbers + leverage of not SL despite them being higher rated than other teams during that phase, so that you don't feel bad:

Ok, but why would anyone who admires the challenges in SA (one of the reasons we appreciate good batsmen is for the challenges they take on in such countries) and battling spin in India (which can be like SL - spin for Kallis) not want to see how they do against each other home and away - despite playing against each other? 

 

I hope that you realize that the exercise of picking teams itself is a blow to those who consider Tendulkar as the greatest. As if he were the really the "greatest", fanboys would say pick any teams you like rather than worrying about the basket   

 

Let me put it this way - don't worry about what I want. Pick the basket of major teams that you like to show that Tendulkar = Kallis (which is what your numbers are trying to tell me) in MO, but Kallis has batted both in UO and MO, in SA, and on top of that bowls as well. So what changes? 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[zen]

27 minutes ago, maniac said:

Doesn’t that skew your data because Indian and SA attack’s have had  a huge gulf in quality.

In general, SA's attack is better in SA in those conditions, and Ind's in Ind in its conditions. So it is a good way to evaluate how they fare against each other both home and away. 

 

For someone like you, who believes Tendulkar is the greatest, you would want him to do well in SA rather than shying away from the challenge.  Tendulkar shies away from taking on challenges like batting in UO and his fans worry about what countries are picked .... With such concerns, do you really think, Tendulkar is the greatest?  

[Trichromatic]

17 minutes ago, zen said:

Ok, but why would anyone who admires the challenges in SA (one of the reasons we appreciate good batsmen is for the challenges they take on in such countries) and battling spin in India (which can be like SL - spin for Kallis) not want to see how they do against each other home and away - despite playing against each other? 

 

I hope that you realize that the exercise of picking teams itself is a blow to those who consider Tendulkar as the greatest. As if he were the really the "greatest", fanboys would say pick any teams you like rather than worrying about the basket   

 

Let me put it this way - don't worry about what I want. Pick the basket of major teams that you like to show that Tendulkar = Kallis (which is what your numbers are trying to tell me) in MO, but Kallis has batted both in UO and MO, in SA, and on top of that bowls as well. So what changes? 

 

 

I see that you have shifted from posting numbers to admiring how players bat. 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

I see that you have shifted from posting numbers to admiring how players bat. 

My numbers are already posted. It is you who is concerned with that as the greatest is not really greatest.  Therefore, if you have insecurities - make your own basket and if it changes anything. 

 

 

 

Quote

 

PS neither Kallis or Tendulkar would be among my first choice in an AT Test 11 but below is the performance vs. some of the major teams in MO:

 

• Kallis (vs. Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak and Ind): Avg 53
• Tendulkar (vs. Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak and SA): Avg 49 

 

 

 

[raki05]

12 hours ago, zen said:

That is your assumption. He could even bat at #3 if he were good enough like many of the batsmen in his class. 

Do you see the irony. Others opinion you are calling assumption. Whereas it's you who are presenting thing for a fact which is purely based on your assumption. Who knows had Tendulkar been given opportunities to bat at top since initial career he would have been average 99 one can say anything what h may feel, but reality is till 2000 whole india stands still to watch Tendulkar bat and expectations of winning was shattered on simply loss of sachin wkt, so rest of the thing what you and I are presenting is just a discussion stretched due to lockdown effect and has no significance whatsoever whether Tendulkar was better than his peers or not as even their peers and most of the cricket best expert consider him only second to Bradman.

[zen]

4 hours ago, raki05 said:

Do you see the irony. Others opinion you are calling assumption. Whereas it's you who are presenting thing for a fact which is purely based on your assumption. Who knows had Tendulkar been given opportunities to bat at top since initial career he would have been average 99 one can say anything what h may feel, but reality is till 2000 whole india stands still to watch Tendulkar bat and expectations of winning was shattered on simply loss of sachin wkt, so rest of the thing what you and I are presenting is just a discussion stretched due to lockdown effect and has no significance whatsoever whether Tendulkar was better than his peers or not as even their peers and most of the cricket best expert consider him only second to Bradman.

I would like to have seen Tendulkar bat in the top order. The fact is that in 200 tests, he did it only once (and failed but a small sample so will not dwell on that). Now if you look at his history, in or around 2002, the team wanted to play in the MO in ODIs, but had to be put back in the top order as he was not able to perform like he did in opening. Similarly, in tests, he never challenged himself to bat in the TO. 

 

Having followed Sachin's career (and seen the attitude of guys like Rahane), he is one who lines up to bat at the top in ODIs and MO in tests. Someone like Stokes too opened in the recent test vs WI. In 200 tests, it is unlikely that the team did not find situations where he could be utilized at 3 - for reference Dravid and Laxman too have batted at various slots. 

 

[raki05]

36 minutes ago, zen said:

I would like to have seen Tendulkar bat in the top order. The fact is that in 200 tests, he did it only once (and failed but a small sample so will not dwell on that). Now if you look at his history, in or around 2002, the team wanted to play in the MO in ODIs, but had to be put back in the top order as he was not able to perform like he did in opening. Similarly, in tests, he never challenged himself to bat in the TO. 

 

Having followed Sachin's career (and seen the attitude of guys like Rahane), he is one who lines up to bat at the top in ODIs and MO in tests. Someone like Stokes too opened in the recent test vs WI. In 200 tests, it is unlikely that the team did not find situations where he could be utilized at 3 - for reference Dravid and Laxman too have batted at various slots. 

 

Why you compare odi with test. And if you are forgetting he played 74 odi before bring up to top order because of his aggressive batting style. BTW even though he was not happy but he batted in middle order durin those eng odi tour and some other. Why would someone change their bstting position just because he can get in to some random poster ATG batting list. Even dravid was not happy when he was sent down the order durin aus 2001 test series coz he was more comfortable at no 3. If according to you batting in middle order was so easy why did he again started playing at no 3. Tendulkar as a test player always batted in mo in first class and international. Why would he himself go and change his position. Do you have any evidence where he was asked to open and in test and he denied that, reality is no body wish  to mess with one's batting position. Ganguly also open in odi but never batted as an opner in test. So according to you whoever should open in odi should also open in test than only he is considered to be among greatest list contender and according to you just one match failure is enough to proof that he couldn't have succeeded there. I mean now more than debate it looks like you are more hale bent to proof Tendulkar and rahane has same attitude.I wish Rahane , forget me even rahane and many around the world wish they had Tendulkar attitude. Now I can understand why Pandya is among greatest alrounder in your list.

Edited July 24, 2020 by raki05

[sandeep]

16 hours ago, zen said:

Bradman played in top order. So did likes of Richards, Lara, Kallis, Ponting, and so on. 

 

No one is saying that Tendulkar is not good but he is down in the pecking order in tests among ATG batsmen 

Tendy detractors have to work so hard coming up with ever shifting new arbitrary lines to justify the data-massaging!

 

Btw, I see that Zen is steadfastly avoiding this basic question raised by @maniac 

 

17 hours ago, maniac said:

Kallis faced and scored runs against Tendulkar’s attack and Tendulkar scored a lot of runs vs Kallis bowling attack.

 

What runs are more valuable?

 

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Similarly, in tests, he never challenged himself to bat in the TO. 

This is such fabricated nonsense, that I almost don't want to bother engaging it.

 

There is zero meaningful difference in "batting in top order" vs batting at #4, following the likes of Shiv sunder Das, Debang Gandhi and co.  And Tendulkar excelled doing just that.  

 

Tendulkar didn't bat higher than #4 because it would never be in the team's interest to hand that unnecessary advantage to the opponents.  Not because he wasn't "good enough to challenge himself".  But some folks once having fallen in love with their 'contrarian' opinion, do not realize how far down the slippery slope of illogic they have fallen.  

[zen]

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

Why you compare odi with test. 

It is obvious - to highlight that some players in India line up to bat at relatively better position. 

 

Quote

And if you are forgetting he played 74 odi before bring up to top order because of his aggressive batting style. BTW even though he was not happy but he batted in middle order durin those eng odi tour and some other. Why would someone change their bstting position just because he can get in to some random poster ATG batting list. Even dravid was not happy when he was sent down the order durin aus 2001 test series coz he was more comfortable at no 3. If according to you batting in middle order was so easy why did he again started playing at no 3. Tendulkar as a test player always batted in mo in first class and international. Why would he himself go and change his position. Do you have any evidence where he was asked to open and in test and he denied that, reality is no body wish  to mess with one's batting position. Ganguly also open in odi but never batted as an opner in test. So according to you whoever should open in odi should also open in test than only he is considered to be among greatest list contender and according to you just one match failure is enough to proof that he couldn't have succeeded there. 

Tendulkar can bat wherever he wants - that is not the issue. But when comparing ATG level batsmen, people will call that out 

 

Also why he did not bat in top order - as explained above. 

 

 

Quote

Now I can understand why Pandya is among greatest alrounder in your list

I do not think Pandya is a great AR - I back him on potential. How he translates that potential would determine his level of greatness 

[zen]

11 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is such fabricated nonsense, that I almost don't want to bother engaging it.

 

There is zero meaningful difference in "batting in top order" vs batting at #4, following the likes of Shiv sunder Das, Debang Gandhi and co.  And Tendulkar excelled doing just that.  

 

Tendulkar didn't bat higher than #4 because it would never be in the team's interest to hand that unnecessary advantage to the opponents.  Not because he wasn't "good enough to challenge himself".  But some folks once having fallen in love with their 'contrarian' opinion, do not realize how far down the slippery slope of illogic they have fallen.  

I understand Tendulkar can do no wrong in his fans' dreams .... but maybe it is now time to wake up

 

So on one hand you suggest that there is no difference in batting at 3 or 4 in Ind's case scenario but "Tendulkar didn't bat higher than #4 because it would never be in the team's interest to hand that unnecessary advantage to the opponents." - If batting at #3 gives more advantage to opposition, there is a difference. 

 

And many of the ATG level batsmen, who have been mainstay of their teams, batted in top 3. 

 

 

 

 

[raki05]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

But when comparing ATG level batsmen, people will call that out 

Not that any cricket experts i know who call out on ATG level skill basis batting position or for that matter many cricket nerds.

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

I understand Tendulkar can do no wrong in his fans' dreams ....

Again with this strawman, Tendy did plenty wrong in my eyes.  Not all who disagree with your conjectures, are one-eyed worshippers.  Of course it suits you to claim as such...

Edited July 24, 2020 by sandeep

[raki05]

17 hours ago, zen said:

Bradman played in top order. So did likes of Richards, Lara, Kallis, Ponting, and so on. 

 

No one is saying that Tendulkar is not good but he is down in the pecking order in tests among ATG batsmen 

According to whom your logic then i agree,

[zen]

24 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Again with this strawman, Tendy did plenty wrong in my eyes.  Not all who disagree with your conjectures, are one-eyed worshippers.  Of course it suits you to claim as such...

Ok. But you took me as a Tendulkar distractor when he is among my favorite cricketers. What I am against is the self scamming exercise of Sachin is the greatest claim perpetrated. If people who call that out are Tendy distractors, Tendy fanboys are cricket distractors, imo. 

[zen]

Talking about top batsmen playing in top order at some point:

 

S Smith 

TO: Avg 70 

MO: Avg 64

 

Excluding BD and Zim 

[coffee_rules]

I have seen a lot of usage of statsguru. But never heard about TM discussions, locker room talk, players refusing to play up the order or down the order. We clearly know how captains asked to play a player up the order and a player refusing

[sandeep]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

Ok. But you took me as a Tendulkar distractor when he is among my favorite cricketers. What I am against is the self scamming exercise of Sachin is the greatest claim perpetrated. If people who call that out are Tendy distractors, Tendy fanboys are cricket distractors, imo. 

Greatest since Bradman, no question.  Just because your immigrant ass didn't get to watch enough of his batting in the 90s when he was in his prime, doesn't make your silliness gospel. 

 

There's a reason, he was near-universally regarded as the greatest since Bradman in the 90s.  That was well, well before he ratcheted up his statistical 'accummulation' records.  

 

Because he was batting class, personified. And did it in all conditions, right from the get-go, like a duck takes to water.  Dropped centuries or 80+ scores on each of his away tours all over the world, even in short series, on his first ever trips from WI to NZ.  And did so, personifying batting perfection, or as close to it as it gets.  

 

Bash him for his inability to put up daddy hundreds. Bash him for his tactical decision to turn 'accumulator in his later years. Bash him for his failure to perform in some crunch games.  Bash the crap out of him for his poor captaincy, and inability to manage a team.  But talk facts, not tea-leaf interpreting airy fairy nonsense such as "top order" vs "MO", or statistical cherry-picking.  

 

  

[zen]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Greatest since Bradman, no question.  Just because your immigrant ass didn't get to watch enough of his batting in the 90s when he was in his prime, doesn't make your silliness gospel. 

 

There's a reason, he was near-universally regarded as the greatest since Bradman in the 90s.  That was well, well before he ratcheted up his statistical 'accummulation' records.  

 

Because he was batting class, personified. And did it in all conditions, right from the get-go, like a duck takes to water.  Dropped centuries or 80+ scores on each of his away tours all over the world, even in short series, on his first ever trips from WI to NZ.  And did so, personifying batting perfection, or as close to it as it gets.  

 

Bash him for his inability to put up daddy hundreds. Bash him for his tactical decision to turn 'accumulator in his later years. Bash him for his failure to perform in some crunch games.  Bash the crap out of him for his poor captaincy, and inability to manage a team.  But talk facts, not tea-leaf interpreting airy fairy nonsense such as "top order" vs "MO", or statistical cherry-picking.  

 

  

As a fan, he can be appreciated too like other batsmen but a lack of some kind of record in the TO rules out any leverage over his peer ATGs, who have that record. If peaks are considered, Ponting had a good one too. 

 

Excluding BD and Zim, 1980-2020 period:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1980 and 1 Jan 2020

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 5000  and batting average greater than or equal to 50

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SPD Smith (AUS)	2010-2019	70	126	16	7045	239	64.04	26	27	4
V Kohli (INDIA)	2011-2019	80	136	10	6810	254*	54.04	25	22	9
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1995-2013	154	266	34	12293	224	52.98	41	54	16
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	114	206	15	10048	287	52.60	29	44	10
BC Lara (ICC/WI)	1990-2006	127	226	6	11558	400*	52.53	32	47	17
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2018	106	182	17	8491	278*	51.46	22	44	7
AR Border (AUS)	1980-1994	142	237	41	10072	205	51.38	24	57	10
RT Ponting (AUS)	1995-2012	160	276	27	12728	257	51.11	39	58	17
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1989-2013	184	306	28	14183	241*	51.01	43	65	13
MEK Hussey (AUS)	2005-2013	77	134	16	5993	195	50.78	18	29	12
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1980-1993	96	141	10	6630	280*	50.61	17	32	4
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2017	106	194	15	8950	313	50.00	30	30	17