Asia's Greatest Test Cricketer

[zen]

Time to get into another big discussion - Asia's Greatest Test Cricketer. 

 

This discussion can be tricky considering various subjective elements, controversies that many of the greats have faced, fan following, rivalries, and so on. At times, we prefer to be guided by emotions, at times, we want to evaluate as objective impartial cricket fans. In this discussion, I am expecting views as objective impartial cricket fans. 

 

On one hand, I have dismissed likes of Imran Khan - Walsh, Wasim, and Imran and Murali (for chucking), but based on numbers and considering them as a product of their time, they are among the strongest contenders. Among other overseas players, there is Sangakkara as well who has performed phenomenally with the bat both as a specialist batsman and a wk-batsman (AR). As for contenders from India, there are a few and we know who they are, therefore will not list them. 

 

So who is Asia's Greatest Test Cricketer? Provide reasons as well for your choice if possible. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by zen

[zen]

At home, they can be more or less similar. Below is the "away" data for quick reference:

 

 

Batsmen

View overall figures [change view] Primary team Bangladesh  or India  or Pakistan  or Sri Lanka  Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies  Home or away away (home of opposition)  Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper  Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000  and batting average greater than or equal to 45  Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8   First Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0   KC Sangakkara (SL) 2000-2015 27 51 3 2677 203 55.77 9 16 1 SM Gavaskar (INDIA) 1971-1986 60 106 9 5055 221 52.11 18 22 6 SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 1989-2012 95 160 13 7645 241* 52.00 24 34 9 M Amarnath (INDIA) 1976-1986 37 63 5 3008 138 51.86 9 17 3 R Dravid (INDIA) 1996-2012 81 147 18 6632 270 51.41 17 32 3 Inzamam-ul-Haq (PAK) 1992-2007 58 100 11 4159 184 46.73 11 23 5 Javed Miandad (PAK) 1976-1993 64 103 8 4351 271 45.80 9 26 6 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2001-2012 45 80 1 3569 309 45.17 10 10 10

 

 

Bowlers

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Bangladesh  or India  or Pakistan  or Sri Lanka

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 30

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

First Previous

Next  Last

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	57	101	13496	5823	238	7/119	11/110	24.46	2.58	56.7	16	4
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	50	83	11785	5127	199	7/40	12/165	25.76	2.61	59.2	13	3
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-2003	43	74	8187	4518	164	6/34	11/119	27.54	3.31	49.9	9	2
M Muralitharan (SL)	1994-2009	48	74	15459	7097	247	9/65	16/220	28.73	2.75	62.5	18	6

 

 

ARs

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Bangladesh  or India  or Pakistan  or Sri Lanka

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1500  and wickets taken greater than or equal to 75

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

First Previous

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Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	50	2267	136	33.83	3	199	7/40	25.76	13	17	0	8.07
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2001	57	1711	123	22.22	2	238	7/119	24.46	16	28	0	-2.24
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1994	65	2378	129	25.84	3	212	8/85	32.88	12	24	0	-7.03
RJ Shastri (INDIA)	1981-1992	41	2090	206	34.83	7	77	5/125	42.32	1	18	0	-7.49

Edited August 20, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

My choice

criteria: all rounder(multiple discipline), batting( toughest discipline), fast bowling, spin bowling gets preference in that order

             multiple format player,  longevity, fair play. being in a weak team etc etc get extra weightage

 

1. Sachin -   3rd GOAT batsman 

2. Kapil - 3rd GOAT all rounder

3 Sunil Gavaskar - legendary test batsman & a good ODI opener of his times.Soo good in the main format that  it is enough to surpass other          contenders at least by a small margin

4. Dravid - tough between  Miandad, Sanga & Dravid. Miandad better ODI player to both others , but his dubious LBW record, his modest record

                 against WI & his  comparatively smaller longevity placed him last. Sanga  debuted  some 4years later  & faced fewer ATG bowlers when compared to Dravid, Also he scored far more  share of runs against ZIM(when they were minnow)& BAN, minnows of his times compared to Dravid

thus inflating his avg: .Dravid also has higher longevity in  tests when compared to Sanga.And Dravid played more clutch knocks in tests. In ODIs , though Sanga apparently has better stats, Dravid who debuted 4 years before  had the superior record till 2010. Sanga capitalised on the much batting

friendly 2010s to boosst his figures immensely.

5. Sangakkara

6. Javed Miandad

7. Kohli - has been such a great LOI player, chaser & finisher . Very good test record too. But , needs to do a bit more in ODI world ups .Also needs to preserve his  test record in SENA to attain adequate longevity. Going by his attitude & there by track record off late, not going to  be a smooth sail moving forward.     If he manages to  achieve both or either one, would certainly surpass a few others in the list.

8. Imran - has superior averages to even surpass his rival all rounder Kapil. But that alone do not count . The context  against which those averages are attained too needs to be considered.Kapil betters him slightly. Add 'fair play' into the mix. Ball tampering takes off  lots of glow from his achievements.With out this element, he would have toppled quite a few names in the list.Still  a quality fast bowler & and an all rounder whose batting credentials & captaincy achievements are never in question.

9. Dhoni - Such a great ODI batsman,even greater ODI chaser & finisher, epitome of clutch ODI chaser & finisher. A good test batting record to go with it & a great wicket keeper. Add his captaincy  credentials he truly deserves his spot.

10. Sehwag-  his huge str: combined with 'good to great' averages  in both formats, his destructive capacity  as   is evident from his string of mammoth scores that too being an opener  are  adequate enough to cover for his other weaknesses to earn a spot in TOP 10.

Notable omissions

 Akram - such  a great track record  for a fast bowler  in both formats and a useful lower order hitter, but tampering allegations in all possibility takes a bit of glow off. Same with Waqar

Murali -chucking controversies, especially his doosra

Shakib - undisputedly the best all rounder & cricketer BAN ever produced. Being from a weak team adds to his credentials. But his ODI bowl average of  almost 37 (against non minnows)  combined with lack of adequate longevity  is a bit off for being a genuine 'all rounder'.

Inzamam -   very good track record   in both formats, but  weakness against genuine fast bowling in the main format as evident by his record in AUS & SAF  just pushes him  out  from the TOP 10.

Sourav Ganguly - great ODI batsman, great captain and a balanced record too for a good  test batsman.But 42 avg:  in tests  puts off his case  'in TOP 10'

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Murali and wasim for me...

Its bowlers who wins u test matches

[zen]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

My choice

criteria: all rounder(multiple discipline), batting( toughest discipline), fast bowling, spin bowling gets preference in that order

             multiple format player,  longevity, fair play. being in a weak team etc etc get extra weightage

 

 Buddy, this is for test matches only! Thread title clearly mentions that  

[zen]

8 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Murali and wasim for me...

Its bowlers who wins u test matches

Good choices esp. when in Asia we do not have too many bowlers who do well away too 

[Gollum]

For most people the top contenders should be Murali and Imran, but since one was a blatant chucker and the other a ball tamperer I can't rate them, let others do but I simply won't compromise. Their crimes are similar to some of the doping cases in athletics/swimming/cycling in 80s which escaped punishment cos of lax control and Cold War politics where top men were involved in cover-ups. Sports should be clean. This also disqualifies the 2 Ws, we all know what happened in NZ/Eng in the early 90s, so many collapses from 200/1 to 250 ao lol. 

 

So I will rate the top 3 as:

 

Sachin: longevity, many records, balanced numbers, stood up to some of the greatest bowlers of all time, incredible consistency, handy bowler and safe catcher etc. He had his fair share of negatives as well, have written enough about that in other threads, moreover don't want to start another war with Sachinstas here 

 

Gavaskar: ATG opener, one of the GOATs against spin, mountain of runs, dominated multiple series, played under lot of pressure since the weak team depended a lot on him, brilliant slip catcher. Not #1, since I know which WI teams he dominated, how he corrected his record in Australia, even NZ for that matter.....joint greatest beneficiary of Packer years along with Botham. Also very selfish. 

 

Sanga: ATG batsman, statistically a beast, consistent and high peak, daddy 100s and dominated series, also a test class keeper, negative points for being underwhelming in quite a few countries, not too many memorable shows in SENA, plenty of minnow bashing but not his fault. 

 

Kohli is certain to replace Sanga, didn't include him since rating active players isn't sensible, already a greater batsman than Sanga but let us wait.....imagine rating Ponting in 2007!!!!

 

Shows how poor Asian cricket has been. None of these 3 will find a place in top 5 all time test cricketers, even top 10 will be difficult. Forget Aus, WI, Eng who boast of so many ATGs.....even Kallis, Steyn, Hadlee are comfortably better test cricketers than Sachin and people like Pollock, Donald will find a place in this top 3. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Gollum

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Murali and wasim for me...

Its bowlers who wins u test matches

i  don't think that can be  the criteria because   the game itself is inbuilt in that way  so that a   bowler  gets that many chances in a single inns despite him making so many mistakes. If any it is the batsman who is at an inbuilt disadvantage because if he makes a single mistake he can't continue thru the rest of the inns.Not only that a bowler can physically intimidate  a batsman to get out as well. So for me it is the batsman who deserves extra credit and there by weightage in these exercises.

[zen]

27 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sanga: ATG batsman, statistically a beast, consistent and high peak, daddy 100s and dominated series, also a test class keeper, negative points for being underwhelming in quite a few countries, not too many memorable shows in SENA, plenty of minnow bashing but not his fault. 

Sangakkara as a specialist batsman (w/o keeping responsibilities) is pretty good. In SENA, he avg 58 (Aus 77, Eng 53, NZ 81, & SA 37) 

Edited August 21, 2020 by zen

[zen]

My initial feeling was that objectively it would be Imran Khan. Sobers and Hadlee are the best batting and bowling ARs respectively. Both of them can compete with Bradman based on their AR skills. Imran is closer to Hadlee as a bowler and can probably bat better. Add to all that his leadership skills in cricket. 

 

I tried to think of reasons as to why he could not be. I did not consider his record in Pak (though he was brave or casual enough to admit to tampering and did it to make his team win, unlike the match fixers in Asia who lose on purpose at the cost of the team. Imran probably will not lose on purpose. But, he can do those things to improve his chances of winning). However, his away record is still quite strong (not extraordinary like in Pak). 

 

List of his key performances in wins "away": 

 

Aus

• 12 wkts at Sydney in 1977
• 4 wkts + decent runs at Melbourne in 1979 
• 5 wkts  + a 70 not out at Melbourne in 1981

Eng

• 10 wkts + useful runs at Leed's in 1987

WI

• 4 wkts + useful runs at Port of Spain in 1977
• 11 wkts + useful runs at Georgetown in 1988 (Many think Pak could have won the series v WI in WI, the strongest team of his time) 

 

In wins away, his bowling avg is 15 (Hadlee is around 12-13 iirc. PS check out the thread - Big Test Match Winners)

 

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Match result won match

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1971-1992	88	3807	136	37.69	6	362	8/58	22.81	23	28	0	14.88	Profile
filtered	1977-1988	9	276	70*	25.09	0	55	7/40	15.41	4	4	0	9.67

 

 

Based on just one skill, it can be Murali. Honorable mention to Sehwag for being a game changer with his SR esp. in subcon (unique impact player).

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

Accepting Imran or Murali as GOAT would mean I have to accept Florence Griffith Joyner as the GOAT sprinter (why so many female WRs from 80s which will never be broken?...also look at the long jump records from that decade). I can't do that, no way. If it were up to me all their records would be expunged, imagine the injustice someone like Herath had to face just to accommodate a cheat in the XI!!!!

Edited August 21, 2020 by Gollum

[zen]

35 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Accepting Imran or Murali as GOAT would mean I have to accept Galina Chistayakova as the GOAT female long jumper and Florence Griffith Joyner as the GOAT sprinter (why so many female WRs from 80s which will never be broken?). I can't do that, no way. If it were up to me all their records would be expunged, imagine the injustice someone like Herath had to face just to accommodate a cheat in the XI!!!!

Note that in cricket, cheating can be done in a variety of ways and to various degrees. A batsman who nicks but remains at the crease has cheated. A bowler who appeals wrongly has cheated. A fielder who claims a wrong catch as cheated. Pressuring (excessive appealing) the umpire to give a wrong decision in his team’s favor is cheating (watched a clip of Viv doing that iirc). And then the responsibility of calling it right is thrown on umpires shoulders. 
 

S Smith (you support Smith), Warner, etc., were banned for cheating, their case brought to light through cameras only because someone requested to keep an eye on them or they would have continued. Some Indian players, including on many folks list, have been banned for tampering related offences. 

 

If cheating (not fixing) is a concern, cricket is not an ideal sport to follow 

 

PS Viv Richards pressuring the umpire
 

 

 

There can be various subjective criteria to evaluate cheating, which is why I asked to evaluate objectively mainly through numbers, skills, impact, etc  

Edited August 21, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

11 hours ago, zen said:

 Buddy, this is for test matches only! Thread title clearly mentions that  

just missed it .Revised test only list.Only minor changes

 

1. Sachin

2.Kapil

3. Sunil

4.Dravid

5. Sanga

6. Imran

7. Laxman

8. Sehwag

9. Inzamam

10,  Miandad

notable omissions

Wasim,Waqar,Kohli,Shakib,Murali,Younis khan,Chandra,Bedi,Ashwin,Jadeja,Akhtar,Saqlain,Kumble &V.Mankad

Shakib,Kohli,Ashwin & Jadeja have their chances to break into TOP 10 depending on career end record .

[zen]

10 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

i  don't think that can be  the criteria because   the game itself is inbuilt in that way  so that a   bowler  gets that many chances in a single inns despite him making so many mistakes. If any it is the batsman who is at an inbuilt disadvantage because if he makes a single mistake he can't continue thru the rest of the inns.Not only that a bowler can physically intimidate  a batsman to get out as well. So for me it is the batsman who deserves extra credit and there by weightage in these exercises.

FYI, with batsmen with 5K or more test runs and bowlers with 250 or more wkts approx:

 

• 86 batsmen avg around 50 or more
• 17 bowlers avg around 25 or less 

[cricketfan28]

Asia's greatest test and one day cricketer is Sachin Tendulkar!

 

 

[Straight Drive]

From those I watched

 

Sunny

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

Miandad

Sangakkara

Kapil

Ashwin

Waqar Younis

Bedi

Chandra

 

Ignored fixers, ball tamperers and chuckers.

 

 

 

 

 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Sunny

Sehwag

I like your top two (assuming them to be in order) - one a great test opening batsman, other a great test impact opening batsman

[zen]

On ICC rankings, the highest rating achieved by retired Asian players is as following:

• Batsmen: Sangakkara 938
• Bowlers: Imran 922 and Murali 920
• ARs: Imran 517