Lil Early to Say but this England side are showing Flashes of the Dominant Australian side

[Ankit_sharma03]

13 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

@Ankit_sharma03
do you think batsmen falling like pack of cards from a dominant position is choke job only?

Bowlers also do choke,you have made it subjective,but it's not buddy

Its when they loos control and starts being wayward . 

Executing a yorker is the toughest thing, u miss by a margin specially against those windies batsman ur gone. 

One player having a bad day doesnt make q team choker and the same player is a clutch player

13 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Perhaps this is the case why you think Stokes giving away 24 runs in space of 4 deliveries wasn't one

I dnt consider it choke, just bad day and poor execution. Had he got nervous and bowled wide no or had he been a regular choke i wud have consider

 

Choke is what we did in final ct 2017, no balls not being ourself. Stokes wasnt even a death bowler.  He lacked skills in death and got his execution wrong.  Bad day not choking

13 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

It was clear case of choking,he just had to bowl four proper deliveries even had he conceded 4 fours it would have been fine

Your understanding of choking is flawed

Half icf understanding of choking n mental midget is flawed

When a bowler in dew gets hit they call mental midget

A player failing in one - two games is choking

 

Clearly acc to many here its good play or choke, what about bad days ? If u keep doing it often then there is an issue but anyone can have few days off infact player has most days off then good. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

30 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

I am not that interested in finding out when RCB team does not picks good bowlers.  It's his and RCB management problem to deal with. Let them deal with it or not, doesn't matters.

 

Secondly, I don't  want to mix IPL in a discussion about WC. 

Why doesnt he captain there?

Doesnt he choke there also in crucial games ?

 

How is that rohit won ipl and also won asia cup n nidhas where as kohli failed to win asia cup. 

 

Some players knws how to win and some dont . 

30 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Thirdly, I have not seen the win loss ratios at home, but I do feel it is heavily tilted in favour of home teams.

 

More batsmen have better batting average at home than away. Home advantage is a major factor although it is not a guarantee that home team wins 100% of matches. It does increases the  probability and percentage of wins in home conditions. We are not going to get easily a repeat of 1983 which was away win. The best chance is a home tournament. Dhoni did it at home. Team India has another hit at home soon.

Dhoni also won ct n t20 abroad, home advantage comes when u keep ur nerves....if ur arnt able to ur not playing to ur full potential instead ur playing under pressure. Home condition also brings home pressure which is not kohli forte

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

54 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Peak aus 

Does this look like demolition to u , they some how snuck through

Two matches Australia won in the World Cup because of their middle/lower-middle order fighting back vs two matches England lost in the World Cup to much inferior teams because of their middle/lower-middle order capitulating. Great job proving my point of England being mental midgets.

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

i know what choking is so i knw the diff between bad day n choking 

Everything you've been saying until now tells otherwise. 

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

bangldesh loosing was choking , a single player like stokes having a bad day is bad day....

It's a choke. It's not a "bad day" when you keep bowling hit me balls when you're getting clobbered for sixes. It's succumbing to pressure. And if England as a team weren't mental midgets then they would've told Stokes to change his plans after the first two sixes, like Pandya was told to bowl the bouncer in the last ball against Bangladesh, or just bowl wide yorkers. Don't kid yourself by saying it's all on Stokes that he couldn't execute his plans when you don't even know what those plans were or if there even were any.

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Two matches Australia won in the World Cup because of their middle/lower-middle order fighting back vs two matches England lost in the World Cup to much inferior teams because of their middle/lower-middle order capitulating. Great job proving my point of England being mental midgets

.

Coz they were a far superior side

In sl game that was a tailor made pitch for lanka.

 

As u said demolition , i showed how even that team cudnt demolish every team

 

Yea right a wc winning team is choker, what next- umesh bowls better yorker then bumrah

Quote

Everything you've been saying until now tells otherwise. 

It's a choke. It's not a "bad day" when you keep bowling hit me balls when you're getting clobbered for sixes. It's succumbing to pressure. And if England as a team weren't mental midgets then they would've told Stokes to change his plans after the first two sixes, like Pandya was told to bowl the bouncer in the last ball against Bangladesh, or just bowl wide yorkers. Don't kid yourself by saying it's all on Stokes that he couldn't execute his plans when you don't even know what those plans were or if there even were any.

No body wants to bowl hit me balls

Yorker is the hardest to execute specially against those hitters.

Pandya execution was better

 

Its all about execution, loi has small margin of errors. 

What bang did was choke, completely lacked comman sense. Stokes clearly didnt execute his death bowling plans . Its a bad day, choking is loosing ur game under pressure that guy anyways in 2016 wasnt great in death. He completely lacked death skills then or slower ones or yorker which got better in last 2 yrs. He had skills with bat to win ashes test and wc final and he did. If someone like bumrah fails ill consider that a choke coz thats his speciality....not stokes

 

Every failure is not choking. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

12 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

A player failing in one - two games is choking

Then why do you call South Africa "chokers"? Do you call Klusener or Allan Donald "chokers" for that final over against Australia even though they didn't choke before or after that again? Would you call Steyn "choker" for that final over against New Zealand in 2015 World Cup semi-final? You call South Africa "chokers" despite having different players in each iteration of the World Cup yet you have a problem with me bringing up 2013 or 2016 England.

[SK_IH]

I would say England have a wonderful captain at the helm, who is trying to build a squad for sustained success. That English cricket is churning out dynamic & multi dimensional batsman at the same time, is a fortunate coincidence.

However, I don't think this English team has any shades of domination. They play an aggressive & entertaining brand of cricket, that is attractive but makes them fallible.

Let this English team win a couple of more ICC events, then legacy will start building.

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Then why do you call South Africa "chokers"? Do you call Klusener or Allan Donald "chokers" for that final over against Australia even though they didn't choke before or after that again? Would you call Steyn "choker" for that final over against New Zealand in 2015 World Cup semi-final? You call South Africa "chokers" despite having different players in each iteration of the World Cup yet you have a problem with me bringing up 2013 or 2016 England.

coz they do every time....its now in their mindset generation after generation 

no matter what set of players comes before the tournament its ingrained in their head that this time they dont have to choke....its mental issue..when u tell someone to not think about something he will think about it 

 

When they get in closing situation it pops it starts to blink in their heads that what if they choke and they do 

Same case with kohli and ganguly the captain 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

@Suhaan @TNAmarkFromIndia

https://www.hotstar.com/in/sports/cricket/vivo-ipl-2019/rajasthan-royals-vs-chennai-super-kings-m190273/match-clips/csk-seal-6th-win-with-lastball-six/2001629241

 

here is another example of stokes lacking skill in death which ull call choking. He cant land yorkers consistently and that was 2016 ...when he wasnt this good now atleast he has developed a yorker.... he came against a power hitter this was against jaddu n santer yet problem is his execution

 

but the same guy who has skills with bat does this in a high pressure cooker situation 

 

 

 

[Stan AF]

Guys, guys guys lets table this GOAT discussion for another time.

 

 

Let's table the discussion towards the more recent time(s). Move discussion towards the fact that  england are currently the team to beat in the limited overs formats and they have been getting excellent results over the last 3-4 years or so. They're clearly the team to beat in this decade.

 

They have a ODI WC under the belt now and one of the strongest contenders for the T20 wc's.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Coz they were a far superior side

They had the mental fortitude that England doesn't have, which is why it's stupid to even compare Australia to a team of FTBs just because they play attacking cricket.

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In sl game that was a tailor made pitch for lanka.

How can a team that isn't even adaptable to different surfaces be showing "flashes" of an ATG team? Australia beat India in India at Champions Trophy 2006 and West Indies in West Indies in World Cup 2007.

17 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No body wants to bowl hit me balls

Yorker is the hardest to execute specially against those hitters.

He still had enough runs on the board to change his plans when it didn't work the first two times. The fact that he went back at it two more times is a choke, not just of Stokes but the team because they couldn't come up with a better plan when Braithwaite was smoking them out of the park.

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

They had the mental fortitude that England doesn't have, which is why it's stupid to even compare Australia to a team of FTBs just because they play attacking cricket.

Again flashes doesnt make them atg side

I clearly mention point they are emulating 

Did u read anywere in op where i mentioned their mental strength is as good as aussies.

Quote

How can a team that isn't even adaptable to different surfaces be showing "flashes" of an ATG team? Australia beat India in India at Champions Trophy 2006 and West Indies in West Indies in World Cup 2007.

Coz only atg sides are able to

Again did i write anywere that they are an atg side or team for all condition .

 

I clearly mentioned 4-5 points which they are emulating well. Those sides were more then about 4-5 factors

Quote

He still had enough runs on the board to change his plans when it didn't work the first two times. The fact that he went back at it two more times is a choke, not just of Stokes but the team because they couldn't come up with a better plan when Braithwaite was smoking them out of the park.

U can come up with 100 plans n any field if ur  bowler cant execute it doesnt matter. In white ball cricket margin is very less...also lets not forget dew at that point in tournament wasnt helping bowlers. 

 

These days in white ball margin of error is very limited and so were his death bowling skills, those wi hitter and dew didnt help either. That same carlos took his team to home from nowere against nz in wc but got hold on boundary with a superb catch...thats not choking thats lil margins

 

Put same archer in that position and england wud have won and no one wud have debated coz archer had the skills. Now if someone like archer messes u can question coz the man had skills 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

coz they do every time....its now in their mindset generation after generation 

Do you call their semi-final match against New Zealand in 2015 World Cup a choke? Or their exit in 2019 World Cup a choke? If you do, you don't understand what a choke is.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

7 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Again flashes doesnt make them atg side

The fact that they don't have the mental fortitude or the versatility of the Australia team itself destroys your idea of them showing "flashes" because England can neither play attacking cricket in that situation nor are all those runaway match winners of any use on wickets that don't suit them. 

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

U can come up with 100 plans n any field if ur  bowler cant execute it doesnt matter.

Which is a debate for another topic but on that night, neither did Stokes come up with another plan nor did England. We wouldn't know if Stokes would've been able to execute them or not because Stokes didn't even try and neither did England. The fact that they couldn't come up with another plan is a mental block on their part which separates them from teams like peak Australia.

[Straight Drive]

15 hours ago, Adamant said:

Ordinary bowling attack.

Nowhere near Aussies and will never be.

But batting is deadly.Their reserves will easily get into indias  first team

 

Hales ,Billings ,banton will easily get into every other team in the world.

In no way is Gill better than Alex Hales as of now. Alex Hales is a certain starter even in this England team. He is not there right now because he took some banned substance and Morgan has not taken this attitude of Hales lightly. 

[Gambit]

In my opinion, limited overs batting was redefined by Kings XI Punjab in the 2014 IPL. They showed other teams that you can have a lineup of all aggressive hitters who smash from the get go without accumulators and the like. England has done the same at the international level from the England - New Zealand 2015 ODI series post the WC. 
 

But that is just batting. The Australian side had GOAT bowlers. No one in the English side comes even close to Lee or McGrath. 
 

England maybe in a 5-10 min “flash” may have resembled Australia but on balance, they are not even in the same pin code today.

[prudent_kreeda]

6 hours ago, maniac said:

That is because the moment someone looks like a match winner they give him a shot straight away and play him in all meaningless games including not so important  test matches.

Gill has played what 1 odi.

 

Shaw has barely played LOI’s when he is made for that format.

 

Have we used someone like DK well who is a terrific T20 player?

 

The point I am making is England’s attacking cricket is result of their talent management identifying these exciting talents and giving them a shot while building a core group of players and their back ups.

 

Stokes is out they will play both Woakes and Curran.
 

Bairstow-Butler-Roy-Banton-Hales and they still haven’t given up on Duckett who is talented. Recently played. Any of those combos can be killer. How long did it take for us to play a new combo outside of Dhawan-Rohit. Even Rahul didn’t get enough chances as opener in LOI’s. I am saying the obvious because you will say hey look Dhawan-Rohit-Rahul-Mayank-Shaw we have those players too but it’s not the same and you know it because they hardly were given a run.

 

Curran is being managed beautifully, They are using Ali well and playing him to his strengths.

 

They have 4-5 keepers who can be in the starting X1.

 

A guy like Woakes is struggling to find a slot in the X1. He would walk into the Indian team any day.

 

Broad Anderson are still going well and if they retire tomorrow they still have a compotent bowling attack. What will happen tomorrow if Shami-Umesh and Bhuvi who are in the same age group retire?

 

As I said they are doing great with man management and player management which we lack.

 

They will dominate in 10 years though but they have turned around English cricket which became a joke in the 90’s and to some extent in the 2000’s

 

     Agree  about management and giving exposure . That is happening due to integrity of people at the helm whose main objective and focus is building  a top side including captain with the same intention  .  Hence every move is guided by this thought .

But what we have in India .

- A real non nonsense Coach is thrown out for one cheerleader. 

- A poor selection committee overwhelmed by Captain & TM . 

- Too much power wielded by Captain.

- Is the captain is driven by the sole intention of building a great team ?. Don't think so . Its seems some selections are based on personal favourites and those few will not be replaced even in meaningless matches for the fear of others taking the place of these personal favorites.

- How much tactical strategy goes into in crucial knockout games in WC tourneys . In fact we do not seem to have any surprise left as good players are played in every match so much before the tournament that there is no surprise element left ( esp. in spinners ' case). Hardly  one can remember any surprise tactic /preparation against a particular bowler in any of these matches by India. Compare the same with our opponents  - Gooch in SF , SL death bowling tactic in 2014 final, Mauling of Kulcha by Eng in 2019 WC . They were working on those to negate the strong points of India . 

Can we recollect any such thing by India in WC games . 

In the present set up , only individual brilliance may bring us something but otherwise this set up will not make us  a great team.  

For whatever they were , you cannot point a finger at Ganguly , Dravid & MSD in that respect .

 

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Its when they loos control and starts being wayward . 

Executing a yorker is the toughest thing, u miss by a margin specially against those windies batsman ur gone. 

One player having a bad day doesnt make q team choker and the same player is a clutch player

I dnt consider it choke, just bad day and poor execution. Had he got nervous and bowled wide no or had he been a regular choke i wud have consider

 

Choke is what we did in final ct 2017, no balls not being ourself. Stokes wasnt even a death bowler.  He lacked skills in death and got his execution wrong.  Bad day not choking

Half icf understanding of choking n mental midget is flawed

When a bowler in dew gets hit they call mental midget

A player failing in one - two games is choking

 

Clearly acc to many here its good play or choke, what about bad days ? If u keep doing it often then there is an issue but anyone can have few days off infact player has most days off then good. 

Stokes didn't have a bad day simple,Stokes isn't a part timer either

Chokes happen in knockouts,i would ruthlessly call failure of our top3 in last SFs as pure choke,

Don't know about half of the ICF,but your definition of "choking "is absolutely flawed

What is a bad day then?

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Suhaan

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Stokes didn't have a bad day simple,Stokes isn't a part timer either

but doesnt make him good in death, ishant umesh are proper bowler who lacks skills in death 

3 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Chokes happen in knockouts,

every failure is not choke

one team will loose 

3 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

i would ruthlessly call failure of our top3 in last SFs as pure choke,

yes thats a choke, coz they wud normally not get out like that specially kohli but stokes normally also isnt that good in death ...he has improved a lot but still isnt that good 

3 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Don't know about half of the ICF,but your definition of "choking "is absolutely flawed

What is a bad day then?by your logic bad day=choke,then why not call it "choke"?

 

bad day is choking  

 

Choking is when u dnt play to ur ability to nerveousness 

When someone ability isnt that good how is it choking, obv one team will win one will loose

 

When an archer or a bumrah chokes like that u can call choking not stokes or pandya coz death bowling isnt their skill. What bang did was chocking coz it was just 2 runs and any batsman can do it but it was brain fade

and u label someone choker when they do it again n again not juts once occasion 

[Ankit_sharma03]

36 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

In no way is Gill better than Alex Hales as of now.

gill is better then many international players currently including all 3 u mentioned 

36 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Alex Hales is a certain starter even in this England team. He is not there right now because he took some banned substance and Morgan has not taken this attitude of Hales lightly. 

hales isnt that good to be in main team , Eng are now clearly investing in banton n malan 

[Straight Drive]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

gill is better then many international players currently including all 3 u mentioned 

hales isnt that good to be in main team , Eng are now clearly investing in banton n malan 

Disagree regarding Gill being better than Hales.

 

Hales is even better than Banton. Hales can only blame himself for his troublesome career now.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Straight Drive