Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners in IPL 2020

[Mosher]

Khaleel 142.6

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

. Not everyone needs to bowl 145 kph. You need variety.

 

Variety does not necessarily have to be in terms of pace. Tall vs shorter pacer, swing bowler vs seam bowler, right armer vs left armer, slinger vs normal bowler ... these are great varieties.

 

A Steyn and a Morkel ... a Garner and a Marshall ... a Waqar and an Akram ... a Bumrah and a Shami ... a Starc and a Cummins ... all these fast bowler duos provide great variety too.

 

Quote

Can swing the ball even if he can bowl 135-142 in future, he can be an option.

 

Yes ... a pacer who gets bounce and zip off the deck and is accurate can succeed at 135 k to 142 k. Ashdeep is not there yet.

 

Khaleel is bowling 135 k to 143 k today ... not 90 mph+ ... But I am liking his bowling today because he is hurrying batters and bowling a heavy ball from his 2nd over onwards.

 

Quote

We should stop being too critical to young players expecting everyone to be bowling 90 mph and obsessing just about numbers. Pace is exciting but good bowling is as important. 

 

 

That's a strange statement. The guy is bowling 80 mph to 86 mph in a T20 match ... mostly around 83 mph ... And you are saying that I am being critical of him for not bowling 90 mph.

 

Do you even read what others are writing. !!

 

If you want to be an all-condition bowler, you have to hurry batsmen, whether you are bowling 84 mph or 94 mph. McGrath, because of his zip off the deck, height and steep bounce, could hurry batters at 135 k too. And that is perfectly acceptable.

 

I don't see that quality in Arshdeep yet. Let him develop that quality and then we will revisit his status as an India probable.

 

Moreover, I have hardly seen an Asian pacer becoming a great bowler if he lacks pace in the air. This is because we play 60% of our matches on slow surfaces. Look at Bumrah, Shami, Imran, Akram, Waqar, Shoaib or Malinga. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Khaleel 3rd over

 

141

Slower ... 4

135 ... 4

143

139 ...OUT

140

 

[express bowling]

45 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

he doesnt seem to offer much otherwise

 

Khaleel, before his India debut, used to be a hit the deck sharp bowler. He got steep bounce and hurried batters. Had decent accuracy. Plus he had a good yorker. This combination posed difficulties for batters. 

 

After India debut, he has changed his bowling style and we often see him just place the ball there at medium pace. 

 

He will be a challenge if he bowls using his original style.

[Vk1]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Khaleel, before his India debut, used to be a hit the deck sharp bowler. He got steep bounce and hurried batters. Had decent accuracy. Plus he had a good yorker. This combination posed difficulties for batters. 

 

After India debut, he has changed his bowling style and we often see him just place the ball there at medium pace. 

 

He will be a challenge if he bowls using his original style.

yeah i remember your posts on Khaleel from couple of years ago..  that hit the deck steep bounce from left arm is very rare. sad he has lost it. 

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Variety does not necessarily have to be in terms of pace. Tall vs shorter pacer, swing bowler vs seam bowler, right armer vs left armer, slinger vs normal bowler ... these are great varieties.

 

A Steyn and a Morkel ... a Garner and a Marshall ... a Waqar and an Akram ... a Bumrah and a Shami ... a Starc and a Cummins ... all these fast bowler duos provide great variety too.

 

 

Yes ... a pacer who gets bounce and zip off the deck and is accurate can succeed at 135 k to 142 k. Ashdeep is not there yet.

 

Khaleel is bowling 135 k to 143 k today ... not 90 mph+ ... But I am liking his bowling today because he is hurrying batters and bowling a heavy ball from his 2nd over onwards.

 

 

 

That's a strange statement. The guy is bowling 80 mph to 86 mph in a T20 match ... mostly around 83 mph ... And you are saying that I am being critical of him for not bowling 90 mph.

 

Do you even read what others are writing. !!

 

If you want to be an all-condition bowler, you have to hurry batsmen, whether you are bowling 84 mph or 94 mph. McGrath, because of his zip off the deck, height and steep bounce, could hurry batters at 135 k too. And that is perfectly acceptable.

 

I don't see that quality in Arshdeep yet. Let him develop that quality and then we will revisit his status as an India probable.

 

Moreover, I have hardly seen an Asian pacer becoming a great bowler if he lacks pace in the air. This is because we play 60% of our matches on slow surfaces. Look at Bumrah, Shami, Imran, Akram, Waqar, Shoaib or Malinga. 

I am not worried about what he is bowling right now because he isn't anywhere near India selection yet.  I am only seeing what he could be 2-3 years down the line with more FC experience and natural gradual improvement if it happens. 

[Rightarmfast]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am not worried about what he is bowling right now because he isn't anywhere near India selection yet.  I am only seeing what he could be 2-3 years down the line with more FC experience and natural gradual improvement if it happens. 

Putting in the effort is a habit. It does not come one fine morning. So, it is safe to say that if a bowler is not putting in the effort when he is 20/21, there is no way he will show intent when he is 24/25. 

Arshdeep is just going through the motion, and that is not good enough. 

 

And I will tell you what the other issue is, For any younger fast bowlers, they have a direct competition with Nagarkotti and Mavi. And their aim has to be to bowl faster than these 2, and be meaner than these 2 to knock them off competition, I dont see that in Arshdeep. Its as if he is happy being the 3rd, 4th fiddle. And that is not acceptable!

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Putting in the effort is a habit. It does not come one fine morning. So, it is safe to say that if a bowler is not putting in the effort when he is 20/21, there is no way he will show intent when he is 24/25. 

Arshdeep is just going through the motion, and that is not good enough. 

 

And I will tell you what the other issue is, For any younger fast bowlers, they have a direct competition with Nagarkotti and Mavi. And their aim has to be to bowl faster than these 2, and be meaner than these 2 to knock them off competition, I dont see that in Arshdeep. Its as if he is happy being the 3rd, 4th fiddle. And that is not acceptable!

 

 

2 very good points RAFbhai.

 

And these have been the issues with many young Indian pacers. They seem to be happy just going through the motions.  They are not trying to excel. They are happy getting some IPL money and are not showing the fire to be top Indian pacers.

 

This is in sharp contrast to a Bumrah or a Shami. The intent to try as hard as possible and be really really good, is always visible in them.

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

I am not worried about what he is bowling right now because he isn't anywhere near India selection yet.  I am only seeing what he could be 2-3 years down the line with more FC experience and natural gradual improvement if it happens. 

 

 

Such smooth improvement and progression is not a high probability event.

 

No one knows where he or other young pacers will be in 3 years.

 

We can only assess what qualities they posess now. 

 

[Rightarmfast]

48 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

2 very good points RAFbhai.

 

And these have been the issues with many young Indian pacers. They seem to be happy just going through the motions.  They are not trying to excel. They are happy getting some IPL money and are not showing the fire to be top Indian pacers.

 

This is in sharp contrast to a Bumrah or a Shami. The intent to try as hard as possible and be really really good, is always visible in them.

 

 

Thats why they are legends for Indian cricket and most likely will go down as legends in the history of world cricket. 

 

Sreeshanth, not withstanding his histrionics, had the intent. Thats why I always liked him. We lost him because of improper handling.

Praveen Kumar, although a very limited bowler pace wise and talent wise, had the intent. 

 

No reason why Arshdeep cant have the same aggression and purpose.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Rightarmfast

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Putting in the effort is a habit. It does not come one fine morning. So, it is safe to say that if a bowler is not putting in the effort when he is 20/21, there is no way he will show intent when he is 24/25. 

Arshdeep is just going through the motion, and that is not good enough. 

 

And I will tell you what the other issue is, For any younger fast bowlers, they have a direct competition with Nagarkotti and Mavi. And their aim has to be to bowl faster than these 2, and be meaner than these 2 to knock them off competition, I dont see that in Arshdeep. Its as if he is happy being the 3rd, 4th fiddle. And that is not acceptable!

Bodies are different and they can react differently for different individuals. Not all progress same way or same time. As I said, Arshdeep just needs a little clue to do slight adjustment in his bowling action. Hopefully, some coach can do that. He is a hip dominant bowler and is apparently running in quite well, just needs a better loading and he will be bowling quicker. Very much like Saini who used to be same pace 5-6 years back.

 

I am very optimistic person. I started talking about fast bowling and fast bowlers on this forum back in 2008 when talking about fast bowling was almost a taboo. We didnt a 90 mph bowler in sight but always had a dream to see multiple bowlers bowling 90 mph for India which eventually happened. So that's why I don't judge a youngster of his age and don't get too critical about them.

Edited October 9, 2020 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

Hope Tyagi retains his place today.

 

He was bowling with a lot of intent and enthusiasm.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Bodies are different and they can react differently for different individuals. Not all progress same way or same time. As I said, Arshdeep just needs a little clue to do slight adjustment in his bowling action. Hopefully, some coach can do that. He is a hip dominant bowler and is apparently running in quite well, just needs a better loading and he will be bowling quicker. Very much like Saini who used to be same pace 5-6 years back.

 

If he starts bowling well at good enough pace, he will become an India prospect. Who is stopping him  !

 

Nor has anyone on this forum said that he can never be a good bowler at international level, even in the future.

 

 

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

 

I am very optimistic person. I started talking about fast bowling and fast bowlers on this forum back in 2008 when talking about fast bowling was almost a taboo. We didnt a 90 mph bowler in sight but always had a dream to see multiple bowlers bowling 90 mph for India which eventually happened. So that's why I don't judge a youngster of his age and don't get too critical about them.

 

 

In 2007 and 2008, we had Ishant, Sreesanth and even RP bowling 90 mph+.

 

In 2006, we had Munaf bowling 90 mph.

 

Zaheer and Nehra bowled 90 mph in 2003-04.

[express bowling]

Almost every pacer who has played for India at the U19 level or has played for Team India, has done so because he has the potential to be a good international bowler in the future. The only exceptions being quota picks.

 

That is a given. That is established.

 

Any discussions we have regarding any of their weaknesses or shortcomings, is more a comparitive discussion we have keeping other Team India prospects in mind. 

 

Who is ahead in the race as of today in terms of current ability ... who is showing intent as of today  ... these are the main points we discuss while pointing out any negatives of a bowler.

 

This comparison may often be implicit  and not spelt out in every post. 

 

I don't think any of us writes off any U-23 pacer just because he is having problems currently.

Edited October 9, 2020 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Bodies are different and they can react differently for different individuals. Not all progress same way or same time. As I said, Arshdeep just needs a little clue to do slight adjustment in his bowling action. Hopefully, some coach can do that. He is a hip dominant bowler and is apparently running in quite well, just needs a better loading and he will be bowling quicker. Very much like Saini who used to be same pace 5-6 years back.

 

 

@rkt.india, you are missing the point that everyone is talking about. We are talking about intent of bowling, not the pace. And please do not be mistaken that he needs to find a coach who will see the anamolies. These are India level players. Everything they do is caliberated. Please dont be mistaken that in ICF, we are the experts here. The kind of coaching and training these players get, we cant imagine. There will be plenty coaches who'd be looking at each of his movements and actions.

 

 

"I am very optimistic person. I started talking about fast bowling and fast bowlers on this forum back in 2008 when talking about fast bowling was almost a taboo. We didnt a 90 mph bowler in sight but always had a dream to see multiple bowlers bowling 90 mph for India which eventually happened. So that's why I don't judge a youngster of his age and don't get too critical about them."

 

That's good to know bro. I started writing about cricket when I joined my 1st job back in 1999 at Times of India. Thats how I met Eddie Smith and had conversations about Srinath. And thats when I joined victor trumper.. These forums have been going on since 97ish.  I remember talking to you in 2011 when I had broken the news of Rehan Khan.

The thing is, just because I started in 98/99, doesnt mean I know more or less than anyone here. I have lost touch and I dont have any data or nos of new players. And theres no shame. We all just discuss here for fun. none of us are going to become cricket professionals :)

[rkt.india]

38 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If he starts bowling well at good enough pace, he will become an India prospect. Who is stopping him  !

 

Nor has anyone on this forum said that he can never be a good bowler at international level, even in the future.

 

 

 

 

In 2007 and 2008, we had Ishant, Sreesanth and even RP bowling 90 mph+.

 

In 2006, we had Munaf bowling 90 mph.

 

Zaheer and Nehra bowled 90 mph in 2003-04.

 

They did it for a very short period of time. Munaf was trundling in 2008. Ishant did in Aus but lost it soon. Sreesanth trundled on 2007 England tour, lacked fitness. He could bowl but never sustained the pace. RP was never 90 mph. None of them touched 90 mph consistently like Umesh-Aaron did later and Bumrah, Saini do now. Munaf trundling it, Ishant losing it. These things were demoralising for people who wanted India to have 90 mph. Sreesanth was one of the biggest disappointment on England tour 2007 after his success in SA.  

[rkt.india]

23 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

 

@rkt.india, you are missing the point that everyone is talking about. We are talking about intent of bowling, not the pace. And please do not be mistaken that he needs to find a coach who will see the anamolies. These are India level players. Everything they do is caliberated. Please dont be mistaken that in ICF, we are the experts here. The kind of coaching and training these players get, we cant imagine. There will be plenty coaches who'd be looking at each of his movements and actions.

 

 

"I am very optimistic person. I started talking about fast bowling and fast bowlers on this forum back in 2008 when talking about fast bowling was almost a taboo. We didnt a 90 mph bowler in sight but always had a dream to see multiple bowlers bowling 90 mph for India which eventually happened. So that's why I don't judge a youngster of his age and don't get too critical about them."

 

That's good to know bro. I started writing about cricket when I joined my 1st job back in 1999 at Times of India. Thats how I met Eddie Smith and had conversations about Srinath. And thats when I joined victor trumper.. These forums have been going on since 97ish.  I remember talking to you in 2011 when I had broken the news of Rehan Khan.

The thing is, just because I started in 98/99, doesnt mean I know more or less than anyone here. I have lost touch and I dont have any data or nos of new players. And theres no shame. We all just discuss here for fun. none of us are going to become cricket professionals :)

I am not questioning your knowledge or anything bro. Regarding being professional, I do have my ambition to start a fast bowling academy here depending on various things how they pan out. Just starting my tourist resort business in Himalayan range this month.  Bowling academy is one of the number in my to-do list. Resort was one and it's done now.

 

Now talking about him getting a coach. He certainly has coach. No question about but then every domestic bowler has coaches and they still have issues. Indian cricket when it comes to coaching is very immature and unprofessional, lack of technical knowledge, ability to assess and rectify. Arjun Tendulkar is supposedly being coached by a very good Indian bowling coach but there are still plenty of technical issues with him. I will give you an example of Saini. At the age of 22, he was bowling 128-138 kph and had a different action but few years later, around 2017, just a slight adjustment in his bowling action enabled him to bowl 145 plus kph.  I am only talking about that adjustment in case of Arshdeep because I can see what is wrong with his action and why he is not able to put that effort you people are talking about. His action is limiting him but a slight adjustment can free him up to put more body into his action.

Edited October 9, 2020 by rkt.india

[Stan AF]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am not questioning your knowledge or anything bro. Regarding being professional, I do have my ambition to start a fast bowling academy here depending on various things how they pan out. Just starting my tourist resort business in Himalayan range this month.  Bowling academy is one of the number iny to-do list. Resort was one and it's done now.

 

All the best and wish you lots of luck

[Rightarmfast]

18 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I am not questioning your knowledge or anything bro. Regarding being professional, I do have my ambition to start a fast bowling academy here depending on various things how they pan out. Just starting my tourist resort business in Himalayan range this month.  Bowling academy is one of the number in my to-do list. Resort was one and it's done now.

 

Now talking about him getting a coach. He certainly has coach. No question about but then every domestic bowler has coaches and they still have issues. Indian cricket when it comes to coaching is very immature and unprofessional, lack of technical knowledge, ability to assess and rectify. Arjun Tendulkar is supposedly being coached by a very good Indian bowling coach but there are still plenty of technical issues with him. I will give you an example of Saini. At the age of 22, he was bowling 128-138 kph and had a different action but few years later, around 2017, just a slight adjustment in his bowling action enabled him to bowl 145 plus kph.  I am only talking about that adjustment in case of Arshdeep because I can see what is wrong with his action and why he is not able to put that effort you people are talking about. His action is limiting him but a slight adjustment can free him up to put more body into his action.

Make sure you do the relevant courses required for the same. I have trained professionally when I was boxing, I was under SAI, sports authority of India. The training method is rigorous. 

Also, there are certifications which trainers need. Do all of that. 

Alternatively, you could also tie up with some companies which promote sports. Like Nike or stuff. But this can only happen if you are a proven coach. Best of luck!

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Make sure you do the relevant courses required for the same. I have trained professionally when I was boxing, I was under SAI, sports authority of India. The training method is rigorous. 

Also, there are certifications which trainers need. Do all of that. 

Alternatively, you could also tie up with some companies which promote sports. Like Nike or stuff. But this can only happen if you are a proven coach. Best of luck!

Yes, will get certification.