Some Conclusions drawn from watching IPL so far

[maniac]

Batting talent:

 

Lack of great options in the middle to lower middle.Too many if not all talented Indian batsmen are top order players who don’t have the the finishing game. Over reliance on foreign power hitters. Even the emerging talents like Gill, Devdutt etc are top order players. The current middle order bats or backups for team India like Rahul, Iyer, Pandey etc all seem more comfortable in the top 3.

 

Bowling Talent
Fast

Apart from the one’s already in the scheme of things like Chahar, Saini etc not too many bowlers who have made us stop in the tracks and admire them. May be it is not a bad thing to have great fast bowling prospects play IPL. While Mavi and Nagarkotti are good, I see them as potential test bowlers and decent odi bowlers than T20 bowlers in the mould of Archer etc.

 

Spin

Leg Spin: I think we will be alright here with the army of talented leg spinners at our disposal- Chahal,Kuldeep have a challenge with guys like Bishnoi,Chahar,Gopal keeping them on their feet.

 

Finger spinners: Ashwin is still the best complete finger spinner in the country. While yes Jadeja is a good test bowler and guys like Sundar,Krunal,Axar are adequate, they all seem to be darters rather than someone who can outfox batsmen with skill and craft. 
 

Fielding
The fielding quality especially from Indian fielders has been below par. Where are the young Indian live wires like we used to see in the past?

 

Allrounders and big hitters:

Time to accept that Hardik Pandya is the only option. Dube has had a good tournament so far but there is nothing in his bowling or battijf that says he has improved. It is just that he has come off and is still a one dimensional hack, let’s hope if he builds confidence and puts in the hard yards to improve. Unfortunately he is the 2nd best option and that itself is a red flag.

 

I see young Indian hitters struggling to hit out against pace with the old ball because most Indian batsmen are timers and not power hitters. Tewatiya is the closest to a hitter but despite that miracle knock, is not convincing enough for international standard.

 

Lack of multi dimensional players:

We use the world allrounder way too losely. People are hyping up Samad or Abhishek Sharma etc when neither their batting or bowling is convincing. Where are the proper batsmen who can bowl a couple of overs or the proper frontline bowlers who can whack a few? SRH tail starts at 5-6 when we have guys like Abhishek, Samad or Vijay Shankar. Look 2/3 guys are young and they might evolve one way or the other but right now they are neither here nor there.

 

Wicket keepers

One area we are all set and have abundance of resources. Pant,Samson,Kishen and even Rahul. Those are guys who would walk into most teams as frontline bats or keepers.

 

Other conclusions:

Pant is still the best keeper bat in the country 

Aggarwal has hit a purple patch and time selectors need to cash it in instead of sticking to a tired and tested formula

Kohli is too stubborn. His pace formula worked wonders for test team but he kept persisting with it and now backed into a corner he has tested out Sundar who does well with the new ball and the results are for everyone to see.

Indian coaches have not impressed.

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

Considering the logjam at the top and for wks, I wonder if one of more of those guys, esp Kishen and Samson, can reinvent themselves as finishers.  They are electric fielders too.  

 

It's going to be quite the battle among Padikkal, Gill, Agarwal and Shaw to break into the T-20 top order.  

[BacktoCricaddict]

Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

Considering the logjam at the top and for wks, I wonder if one of more of those guys, esp Kishen and Samson, can reinvent themselves as finishers.  They are electric fielders too.  I am also holding out hope for Samad to be a finisher (not so much Abhishek Sharma and Shankar).

 

It's going to be quite the battle among Padikkal, Gill, Agarwal and Shaw to break into the T-20 top order.  

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

guys like Sundar,Krunal,Axar are adequate, they all seem to be darters rather than someone who can outfox batsmen with skill and craft. 

thats how u bowl in t20....

Varying pace line n length is also skill

 

you cant keep bowling in same spot in t20 and build pressure, batsman is looking to hit every ball so u have to try to decieve him in every ball which is variation is the key in t20 not predictability 

 

this is why jaddu is crap in t20 and axar, krunal n sundar have time again shown how to bowl in t20.

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

Time to accept that Hardik Pandya is the only option

 

sad that for long, he is ur best invest invest and keep investing 

if u have a problem find another option coz for our TM next option is jaddu at 7 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, maniac said:

People are hyping up Samad or Abhishek Sharma etc when neither their batting or bowling is convincing.

 

 

Reality

 

What we say - we saw a good future talent , can be a future option 

What you hear- ohh acc to you he they are next sobers

When they have few bad games- see people hype them 

When they are in learning phase and make mistakes - ohh people touted him as next sobers

 

kya kare tumhare hallucination ka 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[prudent_kreeda]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

Batting talent:

 

Lack of great options in the middle to lower middle.Too many if not all talented Indian batsmen are top order players who don’t have the the finishing game. Over reliance on foreign power hitters. Even the emerging talents like Gill, Devdutt etc are top order players. The current middle order bats or backups for team India like Rahul, Iyer, Pandey etc all seem more comfortable in the top 3.

 

Bowling Talent
Fast

Apart from the one’s already in the scheme of things like Chahar, Saini etc not too many bowlers who have made us stop in the tracks and admire them. May be it is not a bad thing to have great fast bowling prospects play IPL. While Mavi and Nagarkotti are good, I see them as potential test bowlers and decent odi bowlers than T20 bowlers in the mould of Archer etc.

 

Spin

Leg Spin: I think we will be alright here with the army of talented leg spinners at our disposal- Chahal,Kuldeep have a challenge with guys like Bishnoi,Chahar,Gopal keeping them on their feet.

 

Finger spinners: Ashwin is still the best complete finger spinner in the country. While yes Jadeja is a good test bowler and guys like Sundar,Krunal,Axar are adequate, they all seem to be darters rather than someone who can outfox batsmen with skill and craft. 
 

Fielding
The fielding quality especially from Indian fielders has been below par. Where are the young Indian live wires like we used to see in the past?

 

Allrounders and big hitters:

Time to accept that Hardik Pandya is the only option. Dube has had a good tournament so far but there is nothing in his bowling or battijf that says he has improved. It is just that he has come off and is still a one dimensional hack, let’s hope if he builds confidence and puts in the hard yards to improve. Unfortunately he is the 2nd best option and that itself is a red flag.

 

I see young Indian hitters struggling to hit out against pace with the old ball because most Indian batsmen are timers and not power hitters. Tewatiya is the closest to a hitter but despite that miracle knock, is not convincing enough for international standard.

 

Lack of multi dimensional players:

We use the world allrounder way too losely. People are hyping up Samad or Abhishek Sharma etc when neither their batting or bowling is convincing. Where are the proper batsmen who can bowl a couple of overs or the proper frontline bowlers who can whack a few? SRH tail starts at 5-6 when we have guys like Abhishek, Samad or Vijay Shankar. Look 2/3 guys are young and they might evolve one way or the other but right now they are neither here nor there.

 

Wicket keepers

One area we are all set and have abundance of resources. Pant,Samson,Kishen and even Rahul. Those are guys who would walk into most teams as frontline bats or keepers.

 

Other conclusions:

Pant is still the best keeper bat in the country 

Aggarwal has hit a purple patch and time selectors need to cash it in instead of sticking to a tired and tested formula

Kohli is too stubborn. His pace formula worked wonders for test team but he kept persisting with it and now backed into a corner he has tested out Sundar who does well with the new ball and the results are for everyone to see.

Indian coaches have not impressed.

 

 

 

 Need some clarity  from selectors & TM  to get best out of whatever we have .

1. Accept  we have poor pace bowling resources  for T20.  Now identify who are your best bets and tell them to improve their defensive bowling when under attack. - The 2 guys right now can be considered is Saini (of course with lot more improvement & Kamlesh) 

 Most of young pacers  may be having pace but  they lack control and smarts.  Saini  does not seem to be have options when under the pump. In the last 2 matches -  did not bowl enough yorkers ( pl no excuse of wet ball - if others can do it , these guys should also try to  do that  ) , He could have gone round the wicket and nailed the yorkers but never tried when attacked .(not that he cannot do that . Did very well vs Aus  recently,  i think he should also try the round the wicket  very wide yorkers which go towards slips the way Russel was doing in death overs . Just pace won't do.

I see other one is Kamlesh - may fit T20 among pacers .( prasidh not yet seen in this IPL, hence no idea) . 

Advantage with them - both are pacy , can bowl yorkers . Just need more control & some more skill sets of defensive bowling.

A dipping delivery landing on batting crease but very wide  could be good option  ( This one Shardul is using now and doing it well) .

Assuming Deepak Chahar has ticked his place in T20.

 

Mavi can be considered for 50 Overs .

 

2. Spinners - Krunal , Sundar & bishnoi should  be considered for T20 only . Sundar can learn the Wide yorker deliveries which Krunal does well . This is a very good ball for Tall spinners & vary the pace with same height of delivery ( which Axar does well).

Axar could be another  to be considered for T20.

 

Rahul   chahar , Axar , Jaddu & Kuldeep  if effective to be considered for 50 Overs .

3. All rounders -  Nothing readymade really . Just hope couple of them come to international level among Rana , Abhishek & Samad . There are glimpses so just back them at A level

4. MO - This could be toughest to manage . First find guys suited for T 20 and players should be told  who they will pick but they have to play in MO in T20.  - Samson , Ishan , Pant, Iyer  should be MO players . Consider Shaw & Padikkal for opening slots when they  can be included .

5. Opening - Gill , Padikkal  & Shaw should be considered for Opening in 50 overs . Samson , garg, jaiswal could be considered for MO.  Jaiswal & Padikkal can swap positions in 50 overs . For me both seem to have the game in both positions.

 

Anyof these doing pretty well in T20 can be contenders for 50 Overs .

 

Batting will not be a problem even though it looks like most are top order players . Once players are told where they will be considered , changes in their batting will also come .

For me pace bowling is the worry beyond Bhumra, Shami.

 

 

 

 

[maniac]

2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

Reality

 

What we say - we saw a good future talent , can be a future option 

What you hear- ohh acc to you he they are next sobers

When they have few bad games- see people hype them 

When they are in learning phase and make mistakes - ohh people touted him as next sobers

 

kya kare tumhare hallucination ka 

look small difference, I never said Samad or Abhishek don’t have the talent or are not good enough. You keep misquoting me on that.

 

However the type of players I would get excited about are for example let’s say Jaiswal who is an exciting u-19 prospect performs well in domestics even for 1-2 years, the fact that he can bowl leg spin and at a junior level was pretty good as well, now that’s the type of multi dimensional talent I get excited about fast tracking into the side. There might be give or take 1-2 batsmen who do better than him but that would make him a standout. Same applies for any spear head or a primary spinner who is also scoring runs. 
 

I rate Abhishek over Samad because you said he also opens the batting, so if he can bat in the top 3 and score runs in the same way as Kishen or Samson that would put him over them because we already have enough keeper bats so he would have a case. Same with Samad, if he tops bowling charts for a season or 2 then absolutely replace Kuldeep or someone with him. I wouldn’t pick a player because he got 2 wickets once and hit a couple of 6’s or scored 1 domestic 100 or a 5 fr.

[Ankit_sharma03]

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

look small difference, I never said Samad or Abhishek don’t have the talent or are not good enough. You keep misquoting me on that.

 

However the type of players I would get excited about are for example let’s say Jaiswal who is an exciting u-19 prospect performs well in domestics even for 1-2 years,

 

what about player who bat low 

 

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

the fact that he can bowl leg spin and at a junior level was pretty good as well, now that’s the type of multi dimensional talent I get excited about fast tracking into the side. There might be give or take 1-2 batsmen who do better than him but that would make him a standout. Same applies for any spear head or a primary spinner who is also scoring runs. 
 

 that only if he keeps bowling aise to even iyer, kohjli, rohit bowl 

 

 

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Same with Samad, if he tops bowling charts for a season or 2 then absolutely replace Kuldeep or someone with him. I wouldn’t pick a player because he got 2 wickets once and hit a couple of 6’s or scored 1 domestic 100 or a 5 fr.

 

Samad cant top bowling charts he is like shankar who can give half quote of overs 

He is a power hitter who can bowl as well so dube , shankar, maxwell category 

 

He doesnt have to top charts once he performs decent get him coz there is a need, if keep waiting for domestic charts ull get jadeja type 300s

[maniac]

18 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

what about player who bat low 

 

 that only if he keeps bowling aise to even iyer, kohjli, rohit bowl 

 

 

 

Samad cant top bowling charts he is like shankar who can give half quote of overs 

He is a power hitter who can bowl as well so dube , shankar, maxwell category 

 

He doesnt have to top charts once he performs decent get him coz there is a need, if keep waiting for domestic charts ull get jadeja type 300s

Maxwell has 100’s in all 4 formats of the game- Test,Odi,t20 and IPL (???). He is not in the same league as Dube or Shankar.

 

Shankar is a batsman who can bowl and is barely alright and Dube don’t know what he is.

 

Jadejas 300 did help him make a comeback. We make fun of it but it does help fast tracking someone.

 

Also Rohit’s spin bowling was way better than Iyer or Kohli but he performed at such a high level with the bat that it was never used but he had a perfect drift and bite say in the Sehwag- Sachin or even Yuvi mould. Too bad his injuries don’t let him bowl anymore.

 

I see that talent in Jaiswal, his leg spin is very good. Hope he does well in 1 more season and then he should start playing in the second line up against 2nd string teams in tests and ODis at least.

Edited October 5, 2020 by maniac

[maniac]

@Ankit_sharma03 when you say players who fit role, would you want someone like Faheem  Ashraf or Shadab Khan who played all formats on “role” and “tailunt”

 

or

 

Someone like Moeen Ali, Woakes, SamCurran etc who can play all 3 formats?

[Ankit_sharma03]

31 minutes ago, maniac said:

@Ankit_sharma03 when you say players who fit role, would you want someone like Faheem  Ashraf or Shadab Khan who played all formats on “role” and “tailunt”

 

or

 

Someone like Moeen Ali, Woakes, SamCurran etc who can play all 3 formats?

 

They all do their roles-

Moeen ali cant get in england side on his bowling or batting alone now

Sam curran already is spending half time on bench 

 

If england wants to play specialist they cant play many ahead of moeen ali n curran but these are played for roles 

 

Also 

 

Its not what  you want its what you have . I *ing want symonds but do we have symonds - NOOOO

 

Faheem , Shadab vs Woakes , Curran bros , woakes 

 

Do you think pakistan dont prefer the later but they dont have them. Do you see woakes kind of player in domestic if so let me know . Do u think pakistan wont prefer russell or pandya but they have faheem so they ll play faheem only ....they cant bat haider ali at 7 

 

You have that kind of player or not but the role always exsited in team

 

• Is NZ crying that they dont have hadlee, cairns or vettori- they are playing neesham, CDGH, santner
• Is Pak crying that they dont have razzaq- they are playing faheem n shadab 
• Is Aus crying that they dont have a watson or symonds- they are playing agar, stonis, maxi, marsh 
• Is Sa crying that they dont have kallis or kulsner ...they are playing phehlukwayo
• Did India not select Robin singh, yusuf , jadeja post kapil dev 

 

So its simple role remain and it has to be fulfilled ...ur lucky if u have great talent and if not do with whatever you have . Hardik is not the worse in the world definitely better then what many many sides have 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

@Ankit_sharma03 when you say players who fit role, would you want someone like Faheem  Ashraf or Shadab Khan who played all formats on “role” and “tailunt”

 

or

 

Someone like Moeen Ali, Woakes, SamCurran etc who can play all 3 formats?

 

coming to all 3 format 

 

Well again if i have woakes great but sadly no

IF i have faheem n shadab i will consider shadab for test 

Also i dnt think faheem has 50% quality of hardik 

 

Samad n abhishek if they progress well they shud be in team in 2-3 yrs, Samad ill say fastrack to India-A he ll learn much better.....abhishek still has better setup in punjab cricket and a mentor like yuvi 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[bowl_out]

We have too many top order batsmen - almost every batsman that has international potential is a top order batsman and can do well only when batting in the top 3  - Shaw, Devdutt, Iyer, Samson, Mayank, Rahul, Gill, Rana, Kishan, Rohit, Kohli, Dhawan

 

Middle order is still barren - Who is our No. 4,5,6?  Pant/Iyer maybe.. not much else.

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

We have too many top order batsmen - almost every batsman that has international potential is a top order batsman and can do well only when batting in the top 3  - Shaw, Devdutt, Iyer, Samson, Mayank, Rahul, Gill, Rana, Kishan, Rohit, Kohli, Dhawan

 

Middle order is still barren - Who is our No. 4,5,6?  Pant/Iyer maybe.. not much else.

 

• iyer
• manish
• KL
• Gill 
• Pant
• Ishan 
• DK (in t20)
• SKY (in t20
• Rana 

[bowl_out]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

• iyer
• manish
• KL
• Gill 
• Pant
• Ishan 
• DK (in t20)
• SKY (in t20
• Rana 

 

None of them except Pant play outside the top 3 for their franchise. Will reserve my comments when they play the middle order role in IPL or for India.

And DK has looked clueless so far. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

None of them except Pant play outside the top 3 for their franchise. Will reserve my comments when they play the middle order role in IPL or for India.

And DK has looked clueless so far. 

 

Doesnt mean they cant play in middle, Rahul is the best xample

DK batting at wrong spot, his best spot is 6 n 7

[bowl_out]

45 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Doesnt mean they cant play in middle, Rahul is the best xample

DK batting at wrong spot, his best spot is 6 n 7

 

Like I said I'll believe it when I see it.

I have no reason to believe that Kohli will pick Rahul to play him at No. 5 in a T20I game when he has almost never played outside the top 4 in T20s. Kohli has also lost faith in DK after the WC semis game and he's lost his contract as well. I don't see him in India colors again.

[Straight Drive]

Good thread. 

 

Yes, the skill of spinners is lacking in some of those you named. A skillful spinner who fools the batsmen is what I would personally expect from an Indian spinner, rather than darters that have been named in OP.  Probably there is some mandate for spinner to not bowl at normal spinners speed and hence dart. Some young spinners are also bowling at high speeds and look like end up losing the intrinsic qualities of being a skillfull spinner.

 

Chahal has done well. He has been a standout spinner.

 

 

Padikkal and Shaw have the ability to attack which is required in T20i. If I had to shortlist one,I would say Shaw should be the backup for top order in T20i.

 

Saini and Bumrah have bowled their hearts out. Most other Indian pacers are bowling only few deliveries over 140. Saini needs to be rewarded for his intent. On the same wicket were most other Indian pacers jave majorly trundled, these two are standouts.

 

[express bowling]

Let's first choose s first 11 for T20Is, so that we can consider all others as backups. (  This is not necessarily my personal choice but what selectors choose  ) 

 

1. Rohit ... Will be there, no matter what

2. Rahul / Dhawan .... still there

3. Kohli

4. Iyer / Pandey ... keeps getting picked

5. Pant 

6. Hardik 

7. Jadeja / Sundar 

8. Saini / Shardul ... keeps getting picked

9. Bhuvi / D.Chahar

10. Chahal / Kuldeep when in form

11. Bumrah / Shami 

 

 

 

Let's make a 2nd T20I 11 .... Let's pick just youngsters 

 

1. Gill

2. Shaw / Mayank

3. Padikkal

4. Samson

5. Kishan 

6. Tewatia 

7. Dube / Samad

8. R.Chahar / Bishnoi

9. Prasidh ... his form is not known 

10.  ?

11. ?

 

 

We indeed don't have good backup pacers for T20Is.

 

Nagarkoti and Mavi are coming back from big injuries. And they haven't started theif careers properly yet. Their ability and form for T20s are not known yet. Siraj can be too erratic on days. 

 

 

Let's inspect the  " / " players in the first team.

 

Dhawan ... should not be there.

 

Pandey ... not a consistent oerformer in T20s

 

Sundar .... Bowling good,  but his big hitting ability is not consistent yet.

 

Thakur .... poor

 

D.Chahar ... ok, but has little death bowling experience and not trusted by his captain for that role.

 

Kuldeep ... out of form

 

Shami ... poor death bowler in T20s.

 

So, we need replacement for most of the " / " players in T20Is.

 

Plus Saini is still hit or miss and Bhuvi gets injured a bit too often and is not available.

 

We need backups or replacements for a lot of slots.

Edited October 6, 2020 by express bowling