India all time test XI

[vvvslaxman]

Is it me or Pujara is getting aggressive against Lyon

[vvvslaxman]

Saini's spot is totally wasted. 

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, Soldier said:

Overseas bro. Pant is better overseas. At home we shall see soon. He avergaes 50 plus in first class. 

You can add Pant now 

[Bhoot]

18 hours ago, Bhoot said:

Sehwag

Gavaskar

Dravid

Tendulkar

Virat 

Pant 

Kapil

Jadeja 

Ashwin

Srinath

Bumrah

 

12th : Kumble

I was the only one who picked Pant 

[zen]

My current 11 w/ notes: 

 

Openers: Gavaskar (in a league of his own) and Sehwag (also in a league of his own as a high SR batsmen) pick themselves up 

 

#3: Difficult to look beyond Pujara 

 

#4-5: 3 great batsmen compete for 2 spots: Dravid, Sachin & Kohli 

 

#6: Reserved for a genuine AR. Mankad comes in for his match winning abilities and flexibility. Has held many records for India including 231 opening the batting and 2 8-ers 

 

#7: WK. Contenders include Engineer, Kirmani, Dhoni, Saha & Pant. A coin flip b/w Engineer, who opened the innings in 27 tests and also played county in Eng iirc, and Pant, an amazing young batsman w/ his keeping improving 

 

#8: Kapil. The bowling AR

 

#9-10: Two pacers from Srinath, Zak, Shami & Bumrah. Since bowlers can hunt in pairs will opt for Shami & Bumrah 

 

#11: The specialist spinner to bowl with AR Mankad. Here we have a long list considering the rich history of spin in Ind. Will opt for Chandra, who has the best SR in SENA among spinners w/ 50 or more wkts there. Also a "mystery" spinner

 

 

 

[putrevus]

Kirmani was not that great keeper.Just on keeping skills Saha would be the best keeper followed by Nayan Mongia.

[Muloghonto]

27 minutes ago, zen said:

My current 11 w/ notes: 

 

Openers: Gavaskar (in a league of his own) and Sehwag (also in a league of his own as a high SR batsmen) pick themselves up 

 

#3: Difficult to look beyond Pujara 

 

#4-5: 3 great batsmen compete for 2 spots: Dravid, Sachin & Kohli 

 

#6: Reserved for a genuine AR. Mankad comes in for his match winning abilities and flexibility. Has held many records for India including 231 opening the batting and 2 8-ers 

 

#7: WK. Contenders include Engineer, Kirmani, Dhoni, Saha & Pant. A coin flip b/w Engineer, who opened the innings in 27 tests and also played county in Eng iirc, and Pant, an amazing young batsman w/ his keeping improving 

 

#8: Kapil. The bowling AR

 

#9-10: Two pacers from Srinath, Zak, Shami & Bumrah. Since bowlers can hunt in pairs will opt for Shami & Bumrah 

 

#11: The specialist spinner to bowl with AR Mankad. Here we have a long list considering the rich history of spin in Ind. Will opt for Chandra, who has the best SR in SENA among spinners w/ 50 or more wkts there. Also a "mystery" spinner

 

 

 

 

Dravid was miles and miles better #3 than Pujara is or ever will be.

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, putrevus said:

Kirmani was not that great keeper.Just on keeping skills Saha would be the best keeper followed by Nayan Mongia.

 

Agreed on Saha and Mongia but IMO kiri was a great glovesman.

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Dravid was miles and miles better #3 than Pujara is or ever will be.

 

 

Could be based on certain factors but from the batsmen that I have seen since 1990, I rate Pujara as the best for his unorthodox cricket, courage and ability to understand test cricket 

 

At home, Pujara is ahead

Primary team India

Home or away home venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1990

Batting position between 1 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
V Kohli	2011-2019	39	60	8	3558	254*	68.42	13	10	3
CA Pujara	2010-2019	41	64	6	3471	206*	59.84	10	18	2
V Sehwag	2001-2013	52	89	3	4656	319	54.13	13	19	6
SR Tendulkar	1990-2013	94	153	16	7216	217	52.67	22	32	4
VVS Laxman	1996-2011	57	89	17	3765	281	52.29	8	24	7
R Dravid	1996-2011	70	120	11	5598	222	51.35	15	27	3
M Vijay	2008-2018	30	49	1	2257	167	47.02	9	6	1
SC Ganguly	1996-2008	50	84	10	3180	239	42.97	8	13	6
G Gambhir	2004-2016	34	59	2	2322	206	40.73	5	12	4

 

 

Overseas too his performances such as in Aus v a brilliant bowling attack (4 top line bowlers) in tough conditions over two series are in a league of his own ... carried his bat in Eng too w/ a 132* 

 

PS an old thread

 

 

 

Therefore, Pujara it is at the moment! 

Edited January 19, 2021 by zen

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Could be based on certain factors but from the batsmen that I have seen since 1990, I rate Pujara as the best for his unorthodox cricket, courage and ability to understand test cricket 

 

At home, Pujara is ahead

Primary team India

Home or away home venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1990

Batting position between 1 and 7

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
V Kohli	2011-2019	39	60	8	3558	254*	68.42	13	10	3
CA Pujara	2010-2019	41	64	6	3471	206*	59.84	10	18	2
V Sehwag	2001-2013	52	89	3	4656	319	54.13	13	19	6
SR Tendulkar	1990-2013	94	153	16	7216	217	52.67	22	32	4
VVS Laxman	1996-2011	57	89	17	3765	281	52.29	8	24	7
R Dravid	1996-2011	70	120	11	5598	222	51.35	15	27	3
M Vijay	2008-2018	30	49	1	2257	167	47.02	9	6	1
SC Ganguly	1996-2008	50	84	10	3180	239	42.97	8	13	6
G Gambhir	2004-2016	34	59	2	2322	206	40.73	5	12	4

 

 

Overseas too his performances such as in Aus v a brilliant bowling attack (4 top line bowlers) in tough conditions over two series are in a league of his own ... carried his bat in Eng too w/ a 132* 

 

PS an old thread

 

 

 

Therefore, Pujara it is at the moment! 

 

 

1. At home Pujara isnt ahead at comparative stages of career. Plus Dravid faced far tougher bowling home and away than Pujara day in day out.

The 1990s-early 2000s was the highest quality of bowling ever seen on average in test cricket - so much so that it lead to flattening of the wickets in the mid 2000s. 

 

2. Australia Dravid faced was a consistently ATG bowling attack. Not like the one Pujara faces, where 3-4 years ago it was a good but not great attack etc.

 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

1. At home Pujara isnt ahead at comparative stages of career. Plus Dravid faced far tougher bowling home and away than Pujara day in day out.

The 1990s-early 2000s was the highest quality of bowling ever seen on average in test cricket - so much so that it lead to flattening of the wickets in the mid 2000s. 

 

2. Australia Dravid faced was a consistently ATG bowling attack. Not like the one Pujara faces, where 3-4 years ago it was a good but not great attack etc.

 

 

There may have been great bowlers in the period that you mentioned but our batsmen have not necessarily shined against top quality attack. For e.g. people know (#s done to death) what happened to Ind in SA in the 90s, in Aus w/ both McGrath and Warne playing, the series in SL where Sehwag got a double and so on 

 

At the end of the day, they are all good batsmen with their pros and cons so it is good to be able to pick from them 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

 

There may have been great bowlers in the period that you mentioned but our batsmen have not necessarily shined against top quality attack. For e.g. people know (#s done to death) what happened to Ind in SA in the 90s, in Aus w/ both McGrath and Warne playing, the series in SL where Sehwag got a double and so on 

 

At the end of the day, they are all good batsmen with their pros and cons so it is good to be able to pick from them 

 

well you are supposed to have lesser stats against much greater players. 

As i said, in the comparative stages of their careers, dravid was just as good at home and waaaaaaaaay better overseas.

 

[zen]

39 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

well you are supposed to have lesser stats against much greater players. 

As i said, in the comparative stages of their careers, dravid was just as good at home and waaaaaaaaay better overseas.

 

 

the lesser #s are less relative to other such players  ...  note that Dravid also benefited from batting w/ Sehwag, for e.g. got a relatively struggling 100 v SA when Sehwag hit that 300 ... as for Pujara at #3, I am happy with it!

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by zen

[Muloghonto]

24 minutes ago, zen said:

 

the lesser #s are less relative to other such players  ...  note that Dravid also benefited from batting w/ Sehwag, for e.g. got a relatively struggling 100 v SA when Sehwag hit that 300 ... as for Pujara at #3, I am happy with it!

 

 

 

batting with another great batsman does nothing to help you negotiate McGrath or Warne.

It isnt less relative to other such players- he has some of the best stats for a batsman facing down the great pace attacks and he faced spinners orders of magnitude greater than Pujara has ever faced.

Pujara facing spinners at home is akin to Australian team today facing the sri lanka pacers at home - there is no opposition bowler good enough as Mcgill, nevermind Warne or Murali. 

 

Pujara is a far inferior batsman to dravid 

[zen]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

batting with another great batsman does nothing to help you negotiate McGrath or Warne.

It isnt less relative to other such players- he has some of the best stats for a batsman facing down the great pace attacks and he faced spinners orders of magnitude greater than Pujara has ever faced.

Pujara facing spinners at home is akin to Australian team today facing the sri lanka pacers at home - there is no opposition bowler good enough as Mcgill, nevermind Warne or Murali. 

 

Pujara is a far inferior batsman to dravid 

 

Buddy, as I said, people here know their #s ... when McGrath & Warne both played, Dravid at #3 only avgs 18 in 8 tests, when moved to MO (#4-7), his average improves (coz of the 180 at Kol)  ... Add to that what happened in SL in 2008 

 

If you think that there no opposition bowler now as good enough as McGill, you are likely to be frozen in time  ... Good luck with your theories!  

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Buddy, as I said, people here know their #s ... when McGrath & Warne both played, Dravid at #3 only avgs 18 in 8 tests, when moved to MO (#4-7), his average improves (coz of the 180 at Kol)  ... Add to that what happened in SL in 2008 

 

If you think that there no opposition bowler now as good enough as McGill, you are likely to be frozen in time  ... Good luck with your theories!  

ok so which opposition spinner is as good as McGill ?

 

Yes, Dravid played half his career in an era where 300 first innings is a par score. Obviously his stats would suffer. DESPITE this, he is way, way above Pujara's average overseas and similar/equal to average at home at the same juncture in their careers.

 

[zen]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

ok so which opposition spinner is as good as McGill ?

 

 

Have you heard of Lyon? And you know right that Aus won a test in Ind in 2017? 

 

 

Quote

Yes, Dravid played half his career in an era where 300 first innings is a par score. Obviously his stats would suffer. DESPITE this, he is way, way above Pujara's average overseas and similar/equal to average at home at the same juncture in their careers.

 

A random point pulled out? ... Do you know the par scores for the recently completed series in Aus and NZ were for e.g.? 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Have you heard of Lyon? And you know right that Aus won a test in Ind in 2017? 

Lyon is nowhere as good as McGill was and the averages reflect this- particularly on todays era of spinner friendlier tracks.

 

11 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 

 

A random point pulled out? ... Do you know the par scores for the recently completed series in Aus and NZ were for e.g.? 

 

 

 

Doesnt change the point. The point is Dravid batted against far better bowling attacks, particularly Australia throughout his career and against far better bowlers in general than Pujara.

And at the height of their careers in their early 30s, Dravid was a full 10 points ahead in average. Thats the batting equivalent of comparing a Porsche with a Ferrari.

[zen]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Lyon is nowhere as good as McGill was and the averages reflect this- particularly on todays era of spinner friendlier tracks.

 

Doesnt change the point. The point is Dravid batted against far better bowling attacks, particularly Australia throughout his career and against far better bowlers in general than Pujara.

And at the height of their careers in their early 30s, Dravid was a full 10 points ahead in average. Thats the batting equivalent of comparing a Porsche with a Ferrari.

 

W/o being in touch with realities, your points are a hogwash ... For e.g. Lyon is one of the top spinners

 

Not many are going solely by averages ... For e.g. your 11 -> Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli (c), Mankad, Kapil, Kirmani(wkt), Ashwin, Kumble , Bumrah

 

Not many are going to have Kirmani as wk based on #s, Kumble avgs around 31 (Is McGill better than Kumble?) and Kapil as a bowler avgs 30 (there are bowlers w/ lower averages), not many would have Kohli as captain

 

 

Batting against and doing well are two different things. People know what the avgs v McGrath + Warne are, performance in SL in 2008, etc., while the team raked up runs in 2004 in Aus (700+ at Sydney for e.g.)

 

Why not change your 11? 

 

Thank you! 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by zen

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

W/o being in touch with realities, your points are a hogwash ... For e.g. Lyon is one of the top spinners

 

Top spinner today != equal to top spinner of yesterday or tomorrow. 

Lyon is a medicore spinner who only got to play coz of no other alternatives.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

Not many are going solely by averages ... For e.g. your 11 -> Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli (c), Mankad, Kapil, Kirmani(wkt), Ashwin, Kumble , Bumrah

 

Yes. However, when the average is decisive against quality opposition, the choice is also decisive.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

Not many are going to have Kirmani as wk based on #s, Kumble avgs around 31 (Is McGill better than Kumble?) and Kapil as a bowler avgs 30 (there are bowlers w/ lower averages), not many would have Kohli as captain

Kumble didnt have pacer support. mcGill did. Just like Lyon has and still sucks.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

Batting against and doing well are two different things. People know what the avgs v McGrath + Warne are, performance in SL in 2008, etc., while the team raked up runs in 2004 in Aus (700+ at Sydney for e.g.)

 

Why not change your 11? 

 

Thank you! 

 

 

Because at the age 32-33 Pujara is a far inferior product than Dravid was. Simple.